Brokeback Propaganda

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1548

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Ultimately, the inevitable question at hand becomes not which organization you place faith in (whether the APA or NARTH) but rather which code of morality you ascribe to, live according to, and preach to the masses.[/quote]

Science is science. NARTH uses poorly designed studies to create an appearance of objective validity for their homophobic conclusions. But it is a sham, and the major medical and mental professions of the world have called them on it.

I’ve said it before. You’re welcome to your religious views. But don’t pretend that they are supported by objective facts.

People can either generally change their sexual orientation or they cannot. Attempting to do so is either damaging or it is not. The major medical and mental health organizations have done the research (using methodologies generally accepted by the scientific commmunity), and unanimously concluded that you cannot generally change your orientation, and that doing so can be damaging and is not recommended.

People can take the recommendations of these organizations, or they can listen to the lies of a self-admitted homophobic organization like NARTH. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

1549

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
It has said nothing to the effect of how transporting homosexuals or temporarily allowing them to reside in welcoming, accepting facilities that specialize in orientation adjustment services prove damaging[/quote]

From the American Academy of Pediatrics:

The American Psychiatric Association in its position statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation states:

1550

[quote]forlife wrote:
The most important fact about “reparative therapy,” also sometimes known as “conversion” therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a “cure.”
[/quote]
So simply because they’ve changed their stance on whether homosexuality is a mental disorder (like suicidal ideation), and alleging that no cure is needed, this leads them to proclaim that orientation adjustment therapies are damaging and not recommended? That’s quite a stretch for any objective scientific organization, wouldn’t you agree? Where’s the research to support the latter findings, or are they secretly preaching a biased view on the matter?

I can tell someone’s who’s 13% bodyfat, “[b]dude, why don’t you try the Velocity Diet? It can help get you shredded[/b].” Then someone else comes along and says, “don’t worry, you’re in relatively healthy shape. There’s no need for you to change your body comp.” And that’s understandable… But when that other person goes on to say, “going on the Velocity Diet is dangerous and not recommended”, that’s when I have to step in and say “[b]BULLSHIT, explain why you made this statement with proof[/b].”

That’s what I’m asking now since these organizations made such claims, and in essence, probably frightened off hundreds (if not thousands) of potentially convertable homosexual patients from orientation therapy. Peace be with you.

1551

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
So simply because they’ve changed their stance on whether homosexuality is a mental disorder (like suicidal ideation), and alleging that no cure is needed, this leads them to proclaim that orientation adjustment therapies are damaging and not recommended?[/quote]

Heh, no. They have looked at reparative treatments and documented the damage that can result from them. As noted earlier (you may have missed if you were posting at the same time):

From the American Academy of Pediatrics:

The American Psychiatric Association in its position statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation states:

1552

[quote]forlife wrote:
From the American Academy of Pediatrics:

Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.
[/quote]
Guilt and anxiety are coping mechanisms to a changing world. Often times, guilt and anxiety can be positive elements towards change. If you need this statement clarified with scientific support, I’ll be happy to address it in detail.

Boo-hoo. Let’s shield all our children and the common criminal from any sort of guilt or anxiety because the American Academy of Pediatrics alludes to these emotions as being negative to the human spirit… Gimme a break!

1553

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Guilt and anxiety are coping mechanisms to a changing world. [/quote]

In extremes, guilt and anxiety can also lead to suicide, drug use, unsafe sex practices, and other unhealthy outcomes. Let’s leave it to the medical and mental health professionals to determine where the line should be drawn. I think they are in a better position to determine what is needed for the physical and mental health of their patients.

1554

[quote]forlife wrote:
The American Psychiatric Association in its position statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation states:

The potential risks of “reparative therapy” are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone “reparative therapy” relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.
[/quote]
Ok, so some of the reparative therapy institutions were alleged to not’ve been as forthcoming as they should’ve been with their patients. Perhaps there’s a way to scientifically design, apply, and regulate a structured therapy plan for conversion. The APA is quick to draw on the matter but given the above paragraph, their guns are shooting nothing but blanks. Let’s remain hopeful that more homosexuals come forward and participate in the varying therapy designs so that an effective, efficient mechanism can be implemented in the near future to help assist homosexuals in adjusting their orientations.

You wouldn’t close down all the psychiatric wards throughout the nation because a handful of them implemented the wrong medicinal dosing to patients would you? You wouldn’t close down all the elementary schools throughout the country because a handful of history teachers twisted the facts concerning the Vietnam War?

You would set a standard for these practices. And that’s exactly what the field of reparative therapy needs in its still infantile stages. I would venture to assume that right now it’s in the nitty-gritty struggling to find what therapies work versus what therapies do not, as well as attempting to learn what environmental conditions cause the onset of homosexuality. I’d also bet to wager that funding to investigate these matters would be quite limited indeed given the politically correct stance of the nation’s major medical associations.

All I can say to this end is that the APA needs to be patient. Just like science is science (yet it evolves) and it took decades for homosexuality to be declassified as a mental disorder, give the science of orientation adjustment therapy a chance to evolve and advance so that higher success rates might be revealed.

Anyways, I’ve still not discovered anything persuasive supporting the notion that orientation adjustment therapy is damaging as you kept spouting in this thread, beyond the fact that patients are sometimes not fed all the facts, and that it may potentially induce feelings of guilt & anxiety, which as the APA acknowledges, doesn’t pose a threat to mentally sane individuals.

Peace be with you.

1555

[quote]forlife wrote:
In extremes, guilt and anxiety can also lead to suicide, drug use, unsafe sex practices, and other unhealthy outcomes.[/quote]

What, like anal sex, unprotected sex, and having hundreds of sexual partners, many of whom are disease-ridden? And all this before ever participating in orientation adjustment therapies??? When you’re at the bottom of the barrel, there’s only one place to go - up! I think the APA should be encouraging homosexuals to give orientation adjustment therapies a chance. Perhaps they could even help standardize the field.

I think the CDC (as ZEB has proven to us) has conclusively done just that!

Peace be with you.

1556

forlife,

Do you have any proof that all of the subjects who dropped their same sex attraction are lying?

You spout off…yet are short on facts.

“major medical bla bla bla”

Like they know everything?

Please show me your proof that ALL of the folks below are wrong.

(May 9, 2001). Press Release, National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, Prominent Psychiatrist Announces New Study Results: “Some Gays can Change.”
“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
??better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child.? (p. 9)
Aries, P. and A. Bejin, ed., Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.

Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
?We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
?Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
??a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual? If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality? The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women?? (p. 85-86)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
"The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)
Goetze, R. (1997) Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change: A Review of 17 Published Studies. Toronto Canada: New Directions for Life.
44 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
Hatterer, L., (1970) Changing Homosexuality in the Male. NY: McGraw-Hill.
49 patients changed (20 married, of these 10 remained married, 2 divorced, 18 achieved heterosexual adjustments); 18 partially recovered, remained single; 76 remained homosexual (28 palliated ? 58 unchanged) ?A large undisclosed population has melted into heterosexual society, persons who behaved homosexually in late adolescence and early adulthood, and who, on their own, resolved their conflicts and abandoned such behavior to go on to successful marriages or to bisexual patterns of adoption.? (p. 14)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (unpublished PhD dissertation, Brigham Young University, on file with Brigham Young University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kaye, H., Beri, S., Clare, J., Eleston, M., Gershwin, B., Gershwin, P., Kogan, L., Torda, C., Wilber, C. (1967) Homosexuality in Women. Archives of General Psychiatry. 17:626-634.
??optimism in the psychoanalytic treatment of homosexual women. ?at least a 50% probability of significant improvement in women with this syndrome who present themselves for treatment and remain in it.? (p. 634)
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
?For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is ?curable?.? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1994) Attitudes and experiences of psychoanalysts. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association. 42, 4: 1183-1207.
824 male patients of 213 analysts ? 197 (23.9%) changed to heterosexuality, 703 received significant therapeutic benefit; and of the 391 female patients of 153 analysts ? 79 (20.2%) changed to heterosexuality, 318 received significant therapeutic benefit. (p. 1183)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
?This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. ?however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for change? There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.? (p. 1519)
Newman, L., (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA: NARTH.
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Pattison, E.M., Pattison, M.L. (1980, December) ?Ex-Gays?: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals. American Journal of Psychiatry. 137 (12): 1553-1562.
Authors evaluated 11 white men who claimed to have changed sexual orientation from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality. Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be much more common than previously thought.
Rekers, J. (1988) The formation of homosexual orientation. (In Fagan, P. Hope for Homosexuality. Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.)
?With major research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, I have experimentally demonstrated an affective treatment for ‘gender identity disorder of childhood’, which appears to hold potential for preventing homosexual orientation in males.?
Satinover, J., (1996) Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Grand Rapids MI: Baker.
These reports contradict claims that change is impossible. It would be more accurate to say that all the existing evidence suggests strongly that homosexuality is quite changeable.
?Each individual?s homosexuality is the likely result of a complex mixture of genetic, intrauterine, and extrauterine biological factors combined with familial and social factors as well as repeatedly reinforced choices.? (p. 245)
“A study conducted by a homosexual couple found that out of 156 same-sex couples ‘only seven had maintained sexual fidelity; of the hundred couples that had been together for more than five years, none had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. The authors noted that the expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.’”
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
?Certain individuals who want to change their homosexual preference can be helped by a short-term intensive intervention. The failure rate in helping dissatisfied homosexuals establish heterosexual lifestyles after the intensive phase of the intervention was 20.9%, and after 5 years? follow-up it was 28.4%.
Spitzer, Robert (May 2001) Psychiatry and Homosexuality, Wall St. Journal, A26.
“In the sample he studied, Spitzer concluded that many (homosexuals) made substantial changes (after gender affirmative therapy) in sexual arousal and fantasy–not merely behavior. Even subjects who made less substantial change believed it to be extremely beneficial.”
Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283-305.
?I submit that the case against conversion therapy requires opponents to demonstrate that no patients have benefited from such procedures or that any benefits are too costly in some objective way to be pursued even if they work. The available evidence supports the observation of many counselors ? that many individuals with same-gender sexual orientation have been able to change through a variety of counseling approaches.? (p. 287)
West, D. (1977) Homosexuality Re-examined. London Duckworth
Behavioral techniques have the best document success (never less than 30%); psychoanalysis claims a great deal of success (the average rate seemed to be about 5%, but 50% of the bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford. ??we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic? All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)

1557

[quote]forlife wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
To say the least, some of his posts are thought-provoking. If I thought this guy didn’t have the intellectual capacity to hold his own ground, I wouldn’t be wasting my time responding.

ZEB wrote:
I just want to add, I like forlife. :slight_smile:

We might not agree on…um…err well anything…but I like him.

Thanks guys. Sometimes it is hard not to take things personally, when you feel that people are passing judgment on your life without having all the facts. Still, I understand where you’re coming from. I’ve been there myself, and I respect your right to whatever religious beliefs you may have. I believe your motivations are sincere.

Now if I could just get you to understand that a) homosexuality is not a mental illness, b) people don’t choose their sexual orientation, c) people can’t generally change their sexual orientation, and d) attempting to change one’s orientation can be damaging, and is not recommended by the major medical and mental health professions ;)[/quote]

You were created as a man, by God (IMO) or by nature. You have specific and identifiable characteristics, one of which is the physical means to interact with a woman. You were designed by God or nature to do just that. Your penis is a means for impregnating a female.

Anyone who persists in denying what they are is insane. Whether by choice or as a result of something outside their ken, to act outside your nature is insane. For example, look at the Shaggy Dog movie: it’s funny because Tim acts outside of his nature. Others think he is insane. In the same way, gays are simply insane, whether by choice or not.

Homosexuality is unnatural. Engaging in it, by choice or because of your ‘urges’, is literally the act of a madman. Such people are in desperate need of mental help and possibly confinement to a mental ward.

You guys should get a clue from the prevelance of these horrible diseases in the gay community: God (or nature) is trying to tell you something. Listen.

1558

ZEB wrote:[quote]
“A study conducted by a homosexual couple found that out of 156 same-sex couples ‘only seven had maintained sexual fidelity; of the hundred couples that had been together for more than five years, none had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. The authors noted that the expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.’”
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
[/quote]
Good thing the study was conducted by a homosexual rather than a heterosexual couple, otherwise the study would be ridiculed as being biased and flawed. A horrifying 4.4% fidelity rate amongst homosexual couples tells alot about the promiscuous lifestyle this population leads. It would’ve been interesting to learn of how many partners these committed homosexual men cheated with…

Equally pitiful is the fact that extraneous affairs were expected - this shows that the vast majority of homosexuals are deeply troubled and depraved, even when they encounter support and sexual simulation from hundreds of other like-minded brethren.

Being equipped with such stats is priceless in the event one needs to save a homosexual friend who’s looking for answers. ZEB, you are doing good. God bless you.

1559

ZEB wrote:[quote]
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
[/quote]
Decreasing homosexual activity which is dangerous, ungodly, and contrary to human nature is applaudable. since forlife values the opinions of those in the medical community, here it is! A whopping 23% of homosexuals changed their orientations (according to 285 responding psychiatrists using a sample set of 1,215 patients).

I wonder if forlife participated in any such therapies or if he simply left it all up to God to magically change him. I can sit on the couch all day praying to have a warm plate of food on the table but God asks us to cooperate with Him in achieving our goals. This means we must actively work [b]in addition to[/b] praying for sustenance and whatever necessary changes we’re attempting to make in our lives.

This is a very important message as we often give up, wait for failure, and then blame God for any unfavorable results.

Peace be with all.

1560

This is beginning to feel far more like a church meeting than a scientific discussion.

Ya’ll feel free to continue feeling disgusted at the perversion of homosexuality. Pull out your Narth articles should a hint of doubt enter your narrow mind, and rest at ease knowing that you have the full weight of an organization with a blatant homophobic agenda to back you up.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue listening to people that actually know what they are talking about: every major medical and mental health organization in the world.

1561

[quote]forlife wrote:
This is beginning to feel far more like a church meeting than a scientific discussion.

Ya’ll feel free to continue feeling disgusted at the perversion of homosexuality. Pull out your Narth articles should a hint of doubt enter your narrow mind, and rest at ease knowing that you have the full weight of an organization with a blatant homophobic agenda to back you up.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue listening to people that actually know what they are talking about: every major medical and mental health organization in the world.[/quote]

How is the Journal of American Psychiatry biased? Isn’t it a peer-reveiwed journal?

1562

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
How is the Journal of American Psychiatry biased? Isn’t it a peer-reveiwed journal?
[/quote]

I’ve offered several times to review any specific study from Zeb’s laundry list, on the CONDITION that he agrees to fairly consider my points instead of just ignoring them. He has yet to make that commitment.

I don’t have the time to debunk every study, but if there’s a particular article from the Journal of American Psychiatry you want me to review, please provide the reference. I’ll take the time to review it, if you are willing to commit to fairly considering my points.

Sometimes the research uses a flawed methodology, and other times people are simply misquoting information or taking it out of context.

The bottom line is that every major medical and mental association (INCLUDING the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association) has reviewed this body of research, and drawn conclusions on homosexuality which directly contradict the claims of organizations like NARTH.

1563

[quote]forlife wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
How is the Journal of American Psychiatry biased? Isn’t it a peer-reveiwed journal?

I’ve offered several times to review any specific study from Zeb’s laundry list, on the CONDITION that he agrees to fairly consider my points instead of just ignoring them. He has yet to make that commitment.[/quote]

forlife, this has gotten just a bit on the ridiculous side. There are some 80+ studies which indicate that those who have a same sex desire can change. I’m not playing your game and I never will. If you want to sincerely look at the studies, then take a look at them.

The facts are out there. If you take off your debating hat and put on your learning hat you might just see your way around to giving change another try.

If you want to change, you can change!

Keep in mind many have changed and there is no reason that you cannot be one more.

I’ve looked at all of the facts over a fairly long period of time. And quite honestly no one including you, has convinced me that what you are doing is right, appropriate and has any merit at all.

Unfortunately, we live in a very politically correct time. And that political correctness states that anyone, such as myself, who dare speak out in favor of change will be condemned. I’m sure that I have made brand new enemies right here on this very board for speaking out as I do, and sharing the latest data regarding the negative homosexual act and lifestyle.

Inspite of that, I do this because I care. And anyone who continues to promote a lifestyle and act that causes the multitude of physical and emotional pain is simply wrong.

If you want to change I suggest that you do something that you might not have done the first time around.

Perhaps get in touch with those who have changed! Find out what works, you have already found out what does not work.

Above all give it one more shot!

The fact is there are people who have changed and there will be more who change every day, you could be one of them. If you want to be one who clings to your same sex attraction, then I wish you the best, as I would any lost soul.

1564

[quote]forlife wrote:

I don’t have the time to debunk every study…[/quote]

How do you intend to remain unbias in your approach with a statement like that?

1565

[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife, this has gotten just a bit on the ridiculous side. There are some 80+ studies which indicate that those who have a same sex desire can change. I’m not playing your game and I never will.
[/quote]

Why should I waste the time reviewing your research if you’re not going to at least agree to fairly consider my points?

When I’ve pointed out flaws in studies you have quoted in the past, your response is to bury your head in the sand. I’m not going to waste my breath unless you give my points a fair review.

1566

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
How do you intend to remain unbias in your approach with a statement like that?[/quote]

Do you really expect me to PERSONALLY spend several hundred hours analyzing every study? That is ridiculous. It is like driving up to someone’s front yard and dumping 100 tons of manure, with the promise that if you just sift through enough of it you will eventually find a pearl.

The good news is that there are organizations out there whose JOB it is to do that sifting. The major medical and mental health organizations have the training and professional responsibility to do just that.

These organizations have reviewed the body of research, and have UNANIMOUSLY AND CONCLUSIVELY DEBUNKED THE FALSE CLAIMS OF NARTH.

[quote]The reason for publishing this factsheet now is the recent upsurge in aggressive promotion of “reparative therapy” and “transformational ministry.”…

This factsheet provides information from physicians, counselors, social workers, psychologists, legal experts, and educators who are knowledgeable about the development of sexual orientation in youth and the issues raised by “reparative therapy” and “transformational ministry.”…

The most important fact about “reparative therapy,” also sometimes known as “conversion” therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a “cure.”[/quote]

Despite all of that, people like Zeb will continue pushing their homophobic religious agenda. They will tell gays that they SHOULD change, and that they CAN change, despite the conclusions and recommendations of every major medical and mental health organization in the world. They will harm people in the process, and they directly bear the responsibility for doing so.

1567

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
forlife, this has gotten just a bit on the ridiculous side. There are some 80+ studies which indicate that those who have a same sex desire can change. I’m not playing your game and I never will.

Why should I waste the time reviewing your research if you’re not going to at least agree to fairly consider my points?

When I’ve pointed out flaws in studies you have quoted in the past, your response is to bury your head in the sand. I’m not going to waste my breath unless you give my points a fair review.

[/quote]

First of all there really is nothing that you can post (short of making up stuff) that would convince me that the volumes of data that I have read is somehow wrong.

Can one or two people get it wrong, on either side? Sure. But over all I know what I read and I know what is right and I know what is wrong.

By they way, we just broke the record for the longest most nauseating thread on homosexuality that this board has ever seen!

And we did it together. :slight_smile: