Brokeback Propaganda

[forlife]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
I am under the impression that forlife never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, and I think he live under teh guise of being a Christian when he as not.

Maybe my impression is wrong. If so, forlife can tell me.
[/quote]

I had a very personal relationship with Jesus, accepted him as my Lord and Savior, and wanted nothing more than to live as he lived.

Now I realize that much of what I believed was based on what I WANTED to be true, rather than on what could objectively be confirmed. I realized that there are many with faith in Jesus (or in other gods) who held religious beliefs that were diametrically opposed. Yet they were equally firm in the correctness of THEIR particular beliefs. Clearly, emotionality and firmness of conviction do not necessarily correlate with objective truth.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:

How can straight men have sex with a watermelon?
[/quote]

Mental problems.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
From what I can gather he chose to act on his same sex attraction. This does not “square” with the Christian faith so he fell away.

If I am wrong please correct me.

Actually, it was the reverse. I was no longer spiritually growing in my church, and decided to do some research on it. For the first time in my life, I was willing to step back and honestly consider the evidence. I eventually made a website on what I found, concluding that my spiritual beliefs were grounded in emotionality rather than reality.

In the process, I realized that what I had been taught (and bought into) my whole life about being gay simply wasn’t true. If I were magically made straight today, I would still never return to my faith…I couldn’t do so with integrity.[/quote]

That is very funny. Before coming to know Christ, I was an agnostic that thought all Christians were just wimps who needed a crutch to survive in life. Then, after accepting Christ and seeing the evidence of God’s creation, I could never go back to agnostisism with integrity.

The profound difference here is that God changed me from a self-centered person to a God-centered person. You appear to have gone the opposite direction. I have put away the lusts of the flesh and you have clothed yourself in them. You tell me, which is more difficult to do?

[forlife]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
So how is the anomaly of homosexuality caused? What particular gene (if any) is responsible? Is the AMA collaberating with other institutions to provide gene therapy to cure the condition?[/quote]

We don’t really know yet what determines sexual orientation. It is probably a combination of genetic and environmental influences.

But to your question, the AMA (and other medical and mental health organizations) do not view homosexuality is something which needs to be “cured”. There is nothing inherently wrong with it:

"The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

Are the medical and social work organizations you mentioned saying it’s impossible or improbable?

They are saying that for the vast majority, it is impossible. A small minority may be able to “change” their orientation, but these are probably the folks who were more bisexual to begin with.

Most importantly, they are saying that attempting to change one’s orientation is NOT RECOMMENDED because it is unnecessary, and because it can be damaging.

Dare I say that there are homosexuals out there who want to live normal, natural lives.

Again, you are beginning with a false premise. These organizations have concluded that homosexuals can lead happy, fulfilled lives without changing their orientation (and that attempting to change one’s orientation can actually hurt these people).

[stellar_horizon]

[quote]forlife wrote:
How would you feel if you knew that you were married to someone that loved you, but was unable to be in love with you, and that you would never be able to change that?
[/quote]
There are different types of love. The romanticism of love in our culture is one of the reasons divorce rates skyrocket. Romance dies and the American relationship soon withers. That’s not agape. True love takes time to build and strengthen. It’s not established on a whim of a hopeful fantasy. If you haven’t learned the difference between agape and eros, I suggest you read the writings of the ancient Greeks and/or the Patristic leaders of the Orthodox Church. When you vowed to be with your wife for better or for worse, that included the realization that you may love her but lose the romanticism towards her… What denomination did you belong to? They should have explained that to you…

Peace be with you.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:

I had a very personal relationship with Jesus, accepted him as my Lord and Savior, and wanted nothing more than to live as he lived.

Now I realize that much of what I believed was based on what I WANTED to be true, rather than on what could objectively be confirmed. [/quote]

If you want certain, without-a-doubt confirmation, you will not have it until you die. Hence the word “Faith”.

But, if you did accept Jesus, then I’ll see you in heaven. And, if you did accept Jesus, you may want to look at this whole thread as God calling you back to him.

[forlife]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
And for what? To be able to stick his penis up other men’s butts without guilt[/quote]

I do enjoy having sex with men

However, would it surprise you to learn that sex wasn’t my main motivation in leaving my marriage? I distinctly remember thinking that even if I never found someone to share my life with, the decision to divorce was still justified.

Why? Because the pain and damage caused by living in a state contrary to my core identity was too great to justify staying together. I was disintegrating over time. It wasn’t about the sexual frustration so much as it was about the invalidation and deterioration of myself.

The best example I can proivde to help you understand is to ask you to imagine going through life pretending like you were someone other than who you know yourself to be…let’s say, a woman. Could you dress up in a woman’s clothes every day, and even convince others that you are a woman? Probably. But how would you feel about yourself, knowing that everyone you met didn’t know or love the real you? How would you deal with that kind of daily dishonesty? What toll would it take on your self-esteem, your ability to relate to others, and your productivity in life?

I don’t know if you have the capacity to put yourself into that kind of scenario, or whether you are willing to honestly consider what it would be like. But I share it with you as a way to help you understand WHY the major medical and mental health organizations conclude that trying to change one’s orientation can be DAMAGING.

[forlife]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
There’s even a continuum for orientation?[/quote]

Yep:

[quote]Beyond the ability to reproduce, sexuality also defines how we see ourselves and how we physically relate to others. “Sexual orientation” is a term used to refer to a person’s emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction to individuals of a particular gender (male or female).

Sexual orientation generally is divided into three categories, which may be seen as a continuum:

Heterosexual - Bisexual - Homosexual

Heterosexual - attracted to individuals of the opposite gender

Homosexual - attracted to individuals of one’s own gender

Bisexual - attracted to members of both genders

Sexual orientation involves a person’s feelings and sense of identity.[/quote]

[forlife]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
I don’t want to see you suffer the way you will - in this life or in the next. So, out of love, I am telling you the homosexuality is dangerous.[/quote]

I believe you when you say that you are acting with good intentions. But that doesn’t mean that the results of your intentions are good.

What you are advocating is DAMAGING real people. It damaged me, and it damaged people that I love. Every major medical and mental health organization has concluded that trying to change one’s orientation can be DAMAGING and is NOT RECOMMENDED.

When you ignore those conclusions, and instead tell people that they should try to change their orientation, you are doing them harm rather than good.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
And for what? To be able to stick his penis up other men’s butts without guilt

I do enjoy having sex with men

However, would it surprise you to learn that sex wasn’t my main motivation in leaving my marriage? I distinctly remember thinking that even if I never found someone to share my life with, the decision to divorce was still justified.

Why? Because the pain and damage caused by living in a state contrary to my core identity was too great to justify staying together. I was disintegrating over time. It wasn’t about the sexual frustration so much as it was about the invalidation and deterioration of myself.

The best example I can proivde to help you understand is to ask you to imagine going through life pretending like you were someone other than who you know yourself to be…let’s say, a woman. Could you dress up in a woman’s clothes every day, and even convince others that you are a woman? Probably. But how would you feel about yourself, knowing that everyone you met didn’t know or love the real you? How would you deal with that kind of daily dishonesty? What toll would it take on your self-esteem, your ability to relate to others, and your productivity in life?

I don’t know if you have the capacity to put yourself into that kind of scenario, or whether you are willing to honestly consider what it would be like. But I share it with you as a way to help you understand WHY the major medical and mental health organizations conclude that trying to change one’s orientation can be DAMAGING.[/quote]

forlife, you keep referring to thing that force you to change something about yourself as damaging. I don’t see it that way. Here are some examples.

I don’t think men wearing jeans and women wearing dresses is damaging. I do think that transvestite men wearing dresses, make-up, and taking hormones to eliminate their penises is damaging. Afterall, the core nature of the transvestite is to be as a woman.

I don’t think telling someone not to drink a gallon of everclear is damaging. I do think that telling someone to drink whatever they want is damaging. After all, the core nature of the alcoholic is drunkenness.

I don’t think disciplining our very young children for running out in the middle of the street is damaging. I do think that lack of disciple for situations like this is damaging. After all, the core nature of the child is playfulness.

Do these examples help you understand my thought process?

[stellar_horizon]

[quote]forlife wrote:
Just pointing out that not every Christian views homosexuality as you do. It doesn’t surprise me that you consider your viewpoint to be the only true Christian perspective, but again…I think the members of these other faiths would have something to say about that.
[/quote]
Then I would challenge their authority on Christian doctrine and compare it to what the Apostles and the Apostles’ disciples communicated to the early Church, including but not limited to the commentaries and manuscripts of hundreds of Orthodox Christian bishops spanning Europe, Asia Minor, and Africa by the year 325 AD.

Then the leaders of these liberal denominations would say they only go by the Bible when I would interrupt and point out that the Church came before the Bible, that the Bible was written and compiled by the Orthodox Christian Church, and that it can only be properly interpretted by the Orthodox Christian Church (who is its Author) and then guide them to a host of scriptures supporting my views. Then these so-called Christians would say they believe up until a certain point or that God allows them to freely pick and choose what they believe whereby I define the word heresy for them and state some more scriptures which clearly affirm that heretics do not enter the kingdom of God.

I’ve met Christians that have wacky views on the Faith such as the Crucifixion of Christ being an illusion, that Jesus Christ was made God during His baptism, as was mentioned about Jesus Christ having a wife and children, etc. so it’s no different to me when I hear so-called Christians advocating for the practice of sodomy and/or homosexuality. They’re all just a wacky bunch of heretics…

[forlife]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
I have put away the lusts of the flesh and you have clothed yourself in them. You tell me, which is more difficult to do?[/quote]

What have you received in exchange for “putting away the lusts of the flesh”? What was your motivation for seeking Christianity in the first place? For many, there is a deep need to feel protected and loved, and the idea of living forever in a happy existence with “god” can be very compelling. It can offer great comfort when someone is faced with tragic events in life.

I had the courage to step away from those dreams, because to me the truth was more important than fiction. I would rather live outside the Matrix in a universe that is perhaps harsher but real, than to live within a world of make believe.

I would like nothing more than for someone to offer compelling objective evidence that there is a god, and a life after this one. Until I see such evidence, agnosticism is the most honest approach.

[stellar_horizon]

forlife wrote:[quote]
How can straight men have sex with a watermelon?[/quote]
terribleivan wrote:[quote]
Mental problems.
[/quote]
I couldn’t have said it better myself! That’s a classic, lol. Break out the foil folks, this one’s a wrap!

[forlife]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
There are different types of love. [/quote]

Agreed. My wife and I realized and finally accepted that the love we had for one another was more akin to the love two friends would share, than to the love that should define a marriage. We both deserved the opportunity to find someone to spend our lives with, who could fulfill us on every level.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
I don’t want to see you suffer the way you will - in this life or in the next. So, out of love, I am telling you the homosexuality is dangerous.

I believe you when you say that you are acting with good intentions. But that doesn’t mean that the results of your intentions are good.

What you are advocating is DAMAGING real people. It damaged me, and it damaged people that I love. Every major medical and mental health organization has concluded that trying to change one’s orientation can be DAMAGING and is NOT RECOMMENDED.

When you ignore those conclusions, and instead tell people that they should try to change their orientation, you are doing them harm rather than good.[/quote]

Please provide sources for all the major medical and mental health organizations for me to read.

As far as results from our actions go, I do believe the statistics that show homosexuality is dangerous.

[forlife]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
forlife, you keep referring to thing that force you to change something about yourself as damaging. I don’t see it that way. [/quote]

I know you don’t see it that way, but every major medical and mental health organization does. They have looked at the lives of people like me, and have seen how trying to live contrary to one’s orientation can damage people.

From your perspective, that damage either doesn’t exist (hopefully you now realize that it does), or it is justified because there is a “greater reward in heaven above”.

From my perspective, there is no objective evidence for a “greater reward in heaven above”, so I prefer to put my trust in the conclusions of scientific organizations and in my own experience.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
I have put away the lusts of the flesh and you have clothed yourself in them. You tell me, which is more difficult to do?

What have you received in exchange for “putting away the lusts of the flesh”? What was your motivation for seeking Christianity in the first place? For many, there is a deep need to feel protected and loved, and the idea of living forever in a happy existence with “god” can be very compelling. It can offer great comfort when someone is faced with tragic events in life.

I had the courage to step away from those dreams, because to me the truth was more important than fiction. I would rather live outside the Matrix in a universe that is perhaps harsher but real, than to live within a world of make believe.

I would like nothing more than for someone to offer compelling objective evidence that there is a god, and a life after this one. Until I see such evidence, agnosticism is the most honest approach.[/quote]

Walk out your back door forlife, and you will see proof of God everywhere. You will see it in the trees…in the grass…in the seasons…in the people…in your children. Last but not least, you will see it when you pass from this life to the next.

It is not fiction, my friend. But, as the Bible tells us, without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

[forlife]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
They’re all just a wacky bunch of heretics…[/quote]

And from the viewpoint of the liberal Christian, you are the one that is missing the point of what Jesus taught.

Religion is notoriously contradictory, despite people having deep faith in their particular religion.

That is one reason why I don’t view religion as a valid source of information when it comes to issues like homosexuality. I prefer to look at objective science instead.

[forlife]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
Mental problems.[/quote]

Heh. But surely you admit that the act of a guy masturbating with a watermelon doesn’t prove that he has a romantic attraction to watermelons.

[terribleivan]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
forlife wrote:
Just pointing out that not every Christian views homosexuality as you do. It doesn’t surprise me that you consider your viewpoint to be the only true Christian perspective, but again…I think the members of these other faiths would have something to say about that.

Then I would challenge their authority on Christian doctrine and compare it to what the Apostles and the Apostles’ disciples communicated to the early Church, including but not limited to the commentaries and manuscripts of hundreds of Orthodox Christian bishops spanning Europe, Asia Minor, and Africa by the year 325 AD.

Then the leaders of these liberal denominations would say they only go by the Bible when I would interrupt and point out that the Church came before the Bible, that the Bible was written and compiled by the Orthodox Christian Church, and that it can only be properly interpretted by the Orthodox Christian Church (who is its Author) and then guide them to a host of scriptures supporting my views. Then these so-called Christians would say they believe up until a certain point or that God allows them to freely pick and choose what they believe whereby I define the word heresy for them and state some more scriptures which clearly affirm that heretics do not enter the kingdom of God.

I’ve met Christians that have wacky views on the Faith such as the Crucifixion of Christ being an illusion, that Jesus Christ was made God during His baptism, as was mentioned about Jesus Christ having a wife and children, etc. so it’s no different to me when I hear so-called Christians advocating for the practice of sodomy and/or homosexuality. They’re all just a wacky bunch of heretics…[/quote]

Very well put. These heretics can usually be discovered using a few well placed versus from the KJV. They always make a mistake because they don’t use the Bible to cross-reference scripture with scripture.