Brokeback Propaganda

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1408

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Did you know you can call yourself whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it true?

Oh, I’m well aware that fundamentalists believe that only THEY are true Christians. All the others are false Christians.

However, I suspect that the people belonging to those other Christian faiths would beg to differ.[/quote]

You are so funny. Have you ever heard the story of the wolf in sheep’s clothing? You know, where the wolf is being sneaky so he can destroy the whole flock?

You are a very good example. You used to call yourself a Christian. Now, you don’t call yourself a Christian. What changed? You are either in Christ or not in Christ. So, you were either being deceptive before when you called yourself a Christian, or you are being deceptive right now when you say you are not a Christian.

Do you see what I mean? The title is not as important as the substance.

1409

[quote]forlife wrote:
They promised it would lead to happiness, but it only created pain.[/quote]

“Pain” can also be caused by wanting to do something (you know is wrong) really really badly and not being able to do it.

It was difficult for you to not have homosexual sex, as you desired it. But I wager most of the time you were pretty happy with your wife and two children.

Now you can have all the homosexual sex that you want, and that relieves the “pain” that you thought you had. But, you don’t have your wife and two children (okay kids on weekends or something).

And in time you will have more pain than you bargained for because of the current circumstance that you are in.

Quite a statement!

First, how did you avoid having sex with another male for 20 years? I mean, during that 20 year time I’m sure you laughed, had sex with your wife (when you were married) and did all kinds of fun things. But you did not have homosexual sex.

Secondly, I can’t help but think of al the people who start out trying to something and work very hard but not very smart at it.

You probably should have changed gears and sought different therapy. Funny sometimes how we work hard, fail and blame the system.

When all along it was our own specific approach.

[quote] it cannot generally be changed, and that attempting to do so is NOT RECOMMENDED and can be DAMAGING!

[/quote]

Yet, thousands of men with same sex attraction DO CHANGE.

Hmm, how do you figure that?

1410

[quote]forlife wrote:

It’s not really accurate to describe gays as having “swung both ways”, because you fail to differentiate between orientation and behavior.
[/quote]

And you fail to separate orientation from behavior when you try to tell us that gay folks are the same as a minority race.

So which is it? Can’t have it both ways my friend.

That one statement is not founded in any sort of truth or logic. You have never supported that line with any proof, but it does not seem to stop you from saying it.

Straight men do not have sex with other straight men!

How can homosexual men have sex with women? It would be physcially impossible to perform if they were not aroused.

And 87% of them are indeed aroused enough to have sex with women!

1411

[quote]forlife wrote:

Oh, I’m well aware that fundamentalists believe that only THEY are true Christians. All the others are false Christians.[/quote]

That is a ludicrous statement!

Christians are those who believe that Jesus Christ, as the son of God, came to earth and died on the cross for our sins. We accept him as savior and then attempt to live our lives accordingly.

All who do the above are Christian!

1412

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Did you know you can call yourself whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it true?

Oh, I’m well aware that fundamentalists believe that only THEY are true Christians. All the others are false Christians.

However, I suspect that the people belonging to those other Christian faiths would beg to differ.

You are so funny. Have you ever heard the story of the wolf in sheep’s clothing? You know, where the wolf is being sneaky so he can destroy the whole flock?

You are a very good example. You used to call yourself a Christian. Now, you don’t call yourself a Christian. What changed? You are either in Christ or not in Christ. So, you were either being deceptive before when you called yourself a Christian, or you are being deceptive right now when you say you are not a Christian.

Do you see what I mean? The title is not as important as the substance.[/quote]

From what I can gather he chose to act on his same sex attraction. This does not “square” with the Christian faith so he fell away.

If I am wrong please correct me.

1413

[quote]ZEB wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Did you know you can call yourself whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it true?

Oh, I’m well aware that fundamentalists believe that only THEY are true Christians. All the others are false Christians.

However, I suspect that the people belonging to those other Christian faiths would beg to differ.

You are so funny. Have you ever heard the story of the wolf in sheep’s clothing? You know, where the wolf is being sneaky so he can destroy the whole flock?

You are a very good example. You used to call yourself a Christian. Now, you don’t call yourself a Christian. What changed? You are either in Christ or not in Christ. So, you were either being deceptive before when you called yourself a Christian, or you are being deceptive right now when you say you are not a Christian.

Do you see what I mean? The title is not as important as the substance.

From what I can gather he chose to act on his same sex attraction. This does not “square” with the Christian faith so he fell away.

If I am wrong please correct me.

[/quote]

I am under the impression that forlife never accepted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour, and I think he live under teh guise of being a Christian when he as not.

Maybe my impression is wrong. If so, forlife can tell me.

1414

[quote]forlife wrote:
Actually, it is the job of the professional medical and mental health organizations to sift through the body of research and draw conclusions for the general public based on what actually stands up to scientific scrutiny.

These organizations (American Medical Association, American Academy of Pediatrics, American Society of Social Workers, etc.) have done just that, and have concluded that homosexuality is not a mental illness, that sexual orientation isn’t a choice, that people cannot generally change their sexual orienation, and that attempting to do so can be damaging and is not recommended.
[/quote]
So how is the anomaly of homosexuality caused? What particular gene (if any) is responsible? Is the AMA collaberating with other institutions to provide gene therapy to cure the condition? And even as you admit, environmental factors play a role in the onset of homosexuality. To what degree and what specific triggers are there? These are the unanswered questions which need further investigation. More research obviously needs to be conducted.

Regarding your comment above, “that people cannot generally change their sexual orienation”, what’s that supposed to mean? Are the medical and social work organizations you mentioned saying it’s impossible or improbable? And if it’s worked for some individuals, why has it failed for others? It’s again clear that more investigation is needed. Let’s not stop the buck just yet forlife. Dare I say that there are homosexuals out there who want to live normal, natural lives. Science owes them the research and support to reach a functional, homeostatic condition. I can see how further research and developments could inhibit the homosexual agenda by further diminishing its ranks in the future, but we need to learn more.

Peace be with you.

1415

[quote]ZEB wrote:
YOU pick whichever one you want. Just make sure you do your homework as I will be ready!
[/quote]

Sure, just wanted to give you the opportunity so you wouldn’t later accuse me of handpicking from your list.

Once I pick a study and address it, do you agree to logically and fairly consider the points I make?

If so, please post your list one more time and I’ll pick one to discuss with you.

1416

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Not to mention very liberal and politically correct.
[/quote]

Keep banging that drum, brother Zeb! Anything that disagrees with your perspective MUST be politically correct. It couldn’t possibly be that every major medical and mental health organization is actually sincere in their conclusions regarding homosexuality!

1417

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
Heck, you have two kids with your ex-wife and you still don’t see it. If your orientation argument held up, you would not have the children.[/quote]

Sexual orientation is different from sexual behavior.

Are all fundamentalists this dense?

1418

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
Funny thing is, if your orientation argument was true, then every man who was gay could never be converted into a straight man. But, many men have converted. Do you know what that means?
[/quote]

Nope. It could also mean that:

  1. The “research” was inherently flawed and fewer people changed than was claimed

and/or

  1. People have misquoted or misinterpreted the research results (see Spitzer’s statement to the effect that most of his “success stories” did not, in fact, change their basic orientation…only their behavior)

and/or

  1. Homosexuality has multiple etiologies

and/or

  1. Those few that actually do “change” their orientation were more bisexual on the orientation continuum
1419

[quote]ZEB wrote:
From what I can gather he chose to act on his same sex attraction. This does not “square” with the Christian faith so he fell away.
[/quote]
I think his life exemplifies how inner passions destroy man from the inside out. When we focus on creation instead of the Creator, and grow weary and fail to fast, pray, and repent, the human soul undergoes inner bruising and damage much like internal bleeding. When the signs of blood in the nasal cavity or mouth are evident, a serious condition has manifested itself which needs immediate medical care. In spiritual terms, believers should draw closer to the Lord in heartfelt prayer during such tribulation as well as by visiting the spiritual hospital (which is the Church) that heals such inner wounds.

It appears he was so strongly urged by sexual passions that he not only renounced his bonds with his wife, and allowed his household to be torn in half, but he also abandoned the Christian Faith. And for what? To be able to stick his penis up other men’s butts without guilt… Passions of the flesh are toxic to the spiritual life and unless we can vigorously combat them, they inflict substantial destruction. And sometimes combatting the passions involves suffering as is clear in the Biblical passage below… Imagine if Jesus Christ never redeemed humanity by His sufferings and shedding His Blood for mankind’s salvation…

Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Peace be with all.

1420

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
The liberal denominations like the United Church of Christ are clearly accursed. Stay clear of them and their false dogmas.[/quote]

Just pointing out that not every Christian views homosexuality as you do. It doesn’t surprise me that you consider your viewpoint to be the only true Christian perspective, but again…I think the members of these other faiths would have something to say about that.

1421

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
You are so funny. Have you ever heard the story of the wolf in sheep’s clothing? You know, where the wolf is being sneaky so he can destroy the whole flock?[/quote]

Of course, the wolf never admits his true nature. He may be so good at the charade that he doesn’t even realize he is a wolf.

From my viewpoint, YOU are the wolf in sheep’s clothing. You parade around claiming to follow Jesus, while perpetrating falsehoods that cause real damage in people’s lives. You forget the central message of Jesus’ teachings, which is about loving rather than judging others.

1422

[quote]ZEB wrote:
It was difficult for you to not have homosexual sex, as you desired it.[/quote]

It goes far beyond that, but I’m not going to share the personal details of my marriage with you, because I know that you will only mock what I have to say. One thing that might help you understand, though, is to a) realize that sexual orientation is about much more than who you want to fuck; it is about our core identity and emotional experience; b) look at the marriage through the eyes of the woman. How would you feel if you knew that you were married to someone that loved you, but was unable to be in love with you, and that you would never be able to change that?

You fundamentalists have an answer for everything. If your prognostications don’t play out in the real world, it is always the fault of the other person. Surely I didn’t try hard enough, or smart enough, or long enough to change!

It couldn’t POSSIBLY be that every major medical and mental health organization is correct in concluding that people CANNOT generally change their sexual orientation, no matter how long, how hard, how how smart their attempt to do so.

1423

[quote]ZEB wrote:
And you fail to separate orientation from behavior when you try to tell us that gay folks are the same as a minority race.[/quote]

Umm, what? I said that orientation is comparable to skin color, in that neither is chosen and neither can generally be changed. I said nothing about sexual behavior.

See Sparta (and all the other examples provided earlier).

Or did you mean to say that “straight men in a homophobic culture do not have sex with other straight men”, which is a very different statement?

How can straight men have sex with a watermelon?

1424

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Christians are those who believe that Jesus Christ, as the son of God, came to earth and died on the cross for our sins. We accept him as savior and then attempt to live our lives accordingly.

All who do the above are Christian! [/quote]

Glad to hear that you accept others as Christian, even when they don’t agree with your conclusions on homosexuality.

1425

[quote]forlife wrote:
4) Those few that actually do “change” their orientation were more bisexual on the orientation continuum
[/quote]
There’s even a continuum for orientation? I’m sorry but I think that’s just a convenient way for sexually immoral people to excuse their “[b]f*ck anything with a hole[/b]” behavior. I wonder where incest, pedophilia, and beastiality appear on this continuum.

Here’s an honest question… If people are categorized on this continuum, how are their orientations graded?

Subject: male
age: 34
Continuum range: 1-10

orientation to homosexual men: 9
orientation to heterosexual men: 8
orientation to homosexual women: 4
orientation to heterosexual women: 3
orientation to cats: 7
orientation to dogs: 7
orientation to family members: 8
orientation to minors: 5

Or does stronger orientation towards one group detract from the orientation grading of another (as in adding up to 100%)?

1426

[quote]forlife wrote:

Of course, the wolf never admits his true nature. He may be so good at the charade that he doesn’t even realize he is a wolf.

From my viewpoint, YOU are the wolf in sheep’s clothing. You parade around claiming to follow Jesus, while perpetrating falsehoods that cause real damage in people’s lives. You forget the central message of Jesus’ teachings, which is about loving rather than judging others.

[/quote]

I have hid nothing from you. In fact, I have preached the truth…and I’ve done it out of love. I don’t want to see you suffer the way you will - in this life or in the next. So, out of love, I am telling you the homosexuality is dangerous.

You are confused about love forlife. Those people that are telling you it is OK to lay down with another man do not love you. They don’t care what happens to you. If they do love you, then they are misguiding you.

You have kids. When your child puts his hand on the hot stove, do you try to stop him before he gets burned? Of course, because you love him. If you didn’t love him, you let him hurt himself.

I just want to protect you. In a way, I guess I am your daddy.

1427

[quote]ZEB wrote:
From what I can gather he chose to act on his same sex attraction. This does not “square” with the Christian faith so he fell away.

If I am wrong please correct me.
[/quote]

Actually, it was the reverse. I was no longer spiritually growing in my church, and decided to do some research on it. For the first time in my life, I was willing to step back and honestly consider the evidence. I eventually made a website on what I found, concluding that my spiritual beliefs were grounded in emotionality rather than reality.

In the process, I realized that what I had been taught (and bought into) my whole life about being gay simply wasn’t true. If I were magically made straight today, I would still never return to my faith…I couldn’t do so with integrity.