Brokeback Propaganda

[quote]forlife wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
They’re all just a wacky bunch of heretics…

And from the viewpoint of the liberal Christian, you are the one that is missing the point of what Jesus taught.

Religion is notoriously contradictory, despite people having deep faith in their particular religion.

That is one reason why I don’t view religion as a valid source of information when it comes to issues like homosexuality. I prefer to look at objective science instead.[/quote]

Many Christians are frauds. See my previous posts.

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
You are so funny. Have you ever heard the story of the wolf in sheep’s clothing? You know, where the wolf is being sneaky so he can destroy the whole flock?

Of course, the wolf never admits his true nature. He may be so good at the charade that he doesn’t even realize he is a wolf.

From my viewpoint, YOU are the wolf in sheep’s clothing. You parade around claiming to follow Jesus, while perpetrating falsehoods that cause real damage in people’s lives. You forget the central message of Jesus’ teachings, which is about loving rather than judging others.

[/quote]

And you forgot that it is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible that homosexuality is sin and is to be avoided!

We really don’t need to hear any religious lectures from you!

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
Please provide sources for all the major medical and mental health organizations for me to read. [/quote]

Here are a few to get you started:

According to the American Medical Association:

The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on Homosexuality and Adolescence states:

Several leading medical and mental health organizations developed and endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999. According to that document:

""The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, [b]have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

…health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people’s sexual orientation through ‘reparative therapy’ and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.[/b]"

National Association of Social Workers:

In 1998-MAR, the Governing Council of the American Counseling Association (ACA) approved a motion that the association:

The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It was difficult for you to not have homosexual sex, as you desired it.

It goes far beyond that, but I’m not going to share the personal details of my marriage with you, because I know that you will only mock what I have to say.[/quote]

No I won’t.

I still would not want to jump the mailman. :slight_smile:

Let’s turn that little sterotype around shall we?

“You homosexuals have an answer for everything.”

Oh my…

Try different therapies.

Change is possible otherwise NO ONE would change and many have.

What one person can do another person can do given similar circumstances.

You did in fact throw in the towel to quickly I think.

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
And you fail to separate orientation from behavior when you try to tell us that gay folks are the same as a minority race.

Umm, what? I said that orientation is comparable to skin color, in that neither is chosen and neither can generally be changed. I said nothing about sexual behavior.

Straight men do not have sex with other straight men!

See Sparta (and all the other examples provided earlier).[/quote]

See the USA circa 2006! A Heterosexual man does not want to bend Cliff Claven over the couch when their wife is not around.

Why don’t you wake up?

You think this is a homophobic culture?

Ha ha…if you think this is bad hang around for another 10 years… :wink:

[quote]How can homosexual men have sex with women?

How can straight men have sex with a watermelon?
[/quote]

You don’t understand the difference between an inanimate object and another human being?

You don’t understand that another man would actually negatively effect a heterosexual man in a sexual situation?

You need help. I don’t say that sarcastically, you really do need help.

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Please provide sources for all the major medical and mental health organizations for me to read.

Here are a few to get you started:

According to the American Medical Association:

Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an un-accepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians.

The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on Homosexuality and Adolescence states:

Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.

Several leading medical and mental health organizations developed and endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999. According to that document:

""The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, [b]have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

…health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people’s sexual orientation through ‘reparative therapy’ and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.[/b]"

National Association of Social Workers:

Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful. NASW believes social workers have the responsibility to clients to explain the prevailing knowledge concerning sexual orientation and the lack of data reporting positive outcomes with reparative therapy. NASW discourages social workers from providing treatments designed to change sexual orientation or from referring practitioners or programs that claim to do so.

In 1998-MAR, the Governing Council of the American Counseling Association (ACA) approved a motion that the association:

?opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based in ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender orientation.

The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”
[/quote]

Do you have links where these came from? I would like to get the context.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Change is possible otherwise NO ONE would change and many have.

[/quote]

This is probably the most important point in the entire debate. If homosexuality were truely an unreversable condition, then no one would ever change. People have changed. So, HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT AN UNREVERSABLE CONDITION!

[quote]forlife wrote:
And from the viewpoint of the liberal Christian, you are the one that is missing the point of what Jesus taught.
[/quote]

What a terrible weave such logic would spin though. It’s funny that anyone would allege this because I’ve been taught to abide by ALL of Christ’s teachings & commandments and to repent wholeheartedly for the ones I fail at. But the liberal would come along and say, "buddy, you don’t have to repent for fornication or sodomy, or stealing, or murder… God loves us all so it’s ok to sin. Keep living your life man, as long as you believe you can live a life full of sin and break all His commandments but still love other sinners, you’re good to go… "

They hate and ignore the part when Jesus Christ speaks verses along the lines of ~[b]If you love Me you’ll obey all My commandments[/b]. And since Christians are called to love God with all their hearts, all their minds, and all their souls, and their neighbors as themselves, gee - how can this be done by simultaneously promoting or excusing sinful acts? It can’t. A liberal Christian faces self defeat because it’s impossible to have it both ways. Either you’re fighting to follow 100% of Christ’s commandments or you’re just living out a separate religion. That’s the bottom line.

Christ’s message of attaining even the love of one’s enemy can ONLY be fulfilled by struggling to abide by all His commands, so let’s not demote the ministry and Word of this Great Man to one condensed, simplified passage.

Peace be with you.

Now its 3 on 1, stella, Zeb and Terrible ivan.

you guys must now beat up the one lone gay dude, surely.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You think this is a homophobic culture?
[/quote]

You’re the one that is constantly saying that the majority of Americans oppose gay marriage. You tell me.

Clearly, homosexuality is not accepted in contemporary US culture to the degree it has been accepted in other cultures, where even the majority of straight men have sex with one another. Given our culture, is it any surprise that so many gays are trying to live contrary to who they are?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Change is possible otherwise NO ONE would change and many have.

terribleivan wrote:

This is probably the most important point in the entire debate. If homosexuality were truely an unreversable condition, then no one would ever change. People have changed. So, HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT AN UNREVERSABLE CONDITION![/quote]

Why do you assume that all homosexuals are the same? Don’t you think it is possible that some people are further along the bisexual continuum than others? Don’t you also think it is possible that homosexuality is caused by multiple factors, and that at least some of those factors may be impossible to change?

Most importantly, don’t you realize that every major medical and mental health organization has concluded that sexual orientation CANNOT generally be changed, and that attempting to do so is NOT RECOMMENDED and can be DAMAGING?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Change is possible otherwise NO ONE would change and many have.

terribleivan wrote:
This is probably the most important point in the entire debate. If homosexuality were truely an unreversable condition, then no one would ever change. People have changed. So, HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT AN UNREVERSABLE CONDITION!
[/quote]
The caps lock adds a delightful accent in bringing this point home. But use caps lock sparingly, otherwise you might get called out for going on a hissy-fit by ZEB. =)

Okay, back to the discussion… forlife, what are the perils of trying to change one’s sexual orientation? You have any stats on the matter because you’ve mentioned it at least twenty times that TRYING TO CHANGE ONE’S SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS DANGEROUS AND NOT RECOMMENDED. From what I’ve gathered, guilt (which is a normal reaction and quite often healthy) as well as anxiety (which we all encounter day-to-day) seem to be the only drawbacks.

I feel guilty when I eat pastries on a low-carb plan (which is a positive type of guilt). I also feel anxiety when I skip out on the gym, run late to work, or miss out on Church services (which is a positive type of anxiety which motivates me to prepare more effectively for the future). I see nothing inherently wrong with guilt or anxiety if the end goal is potentially achievable and geared towards sustenance and health.

By the way, that orientation continuum is way too narrow in its scope as it fails to include sexual orientation towards minors, family members, and animals. [b]I would like to think[/b] that not everyone on the opposite side of the heterosexual spectrum screws anything having a hole.

Peace be with all.

[quote]miniross wrote:
Now its 3 on 1, stella, Zeb and Terrible ivan.

you guys must now beat up the one lone gay dude, surely.
[/quote]
Feel free to chime in. And for the record, although I agree with many of the key anti-homosexual angles being broadcast here, I don’t think forlife perceives himself as getting beat up. He does have the occasionally good analogy he brings into the thread.

To say the least, some of his posts are thought-provoking. If I thought this guy didn’t have the intellectual capacity to hold his own ground, I wouldn’t be wasting my time responding.

Peace be with you.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Clearly, homosexuality is not accepted in contemporary US culture to the degree it has been accepted in other cultures, where even the majority of straight men have sex with one another.
[/quote]

No way. This is the craziest thing I’ve read in this entire thread. Maybe it’s a typo or maybe I’m getting cross-eyed but are you alleging that the majority of straight men outside the United States are sodomizing each other?!?!?

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

I feel sorry for the guy! He is in for a lifetime of pain and regret.

Look, I know what he went through was not easy. And he failed in his attempt. But what does that mean?

What you fail in anything do you simply throw your hands up in the air and quit?

NO!

You find another way to get the job done.

I think one reason that he failed is because he swallowed the entire line of the politcally correct.

“You were born that way.”

A claim that to date has never been substantiated.

If I were him I would try another therapy…

NEVER GIVE UP![/quote]

Yes, I agree. If it was me I would keep trying also, but it is difficult because the PC crowed is feeding him crap.

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
forlife wrote:
Clearly, homosexuality is not accepted in contemporary US culture to the degree it has been accepted in other cultures, where even the majority of straight men have sex with one another.

No way. This is the craziest thing I’ve read in this entire thread. Maybe it’s a typo or maybe I’m getting cross-eyed but are you alleging that the majority of straight men outside the United States are sodomizing each other?!?!?
[/quote]

Dude, he is just wishful thinking. He is trying to justify what cannot be justified, and doing a poor job of it.

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You think this is a homophobic culture?

You’re the one that is constantly saying that the majority of Americans oppose gay marriage. You tell me.

Clearly, homosexuality is not accepted in contemporary US culture to the degree it has been accepted in other cultures, where even the majority of straight men have sex with one another. Given our culture, is it any surprise that so many gays are trying to live contrary to who they are?[/quote]

I think you missed my point which is par for the course…

My implication: If you think it’s bad now hold on for 10 more years…it will get worse.

As far as your insistence that if homosexuality were embraced there would be more heterosexuals having sex with those of the same sex, that is just nutty.

You deny the natural tendency for heterosexuals to be attracted to those of the opposite sex.

And that is what nature (I mean God of course) had intended. There is no amount of cultural learning or acceptance that would change this.

You are just not thinking clearly, but seems to be part of the whole politically correct crowd. I won’t blame that just on homosexuality.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Don’t you think it is possible that some people are further along the bisexual continuum… [/quote]

Okay, I can’t let this beauty go past without recognition.

THE BISEXUAL CONTINUUM.

(shaking head and smiling)…You are one of a kind my man…one of a kind… Ha ha…

Interesting you would say this. I actucally think you are starting to open your mind a bit.

Here is what I want you to contemplate: If you don’t know what those “factors” are, how can you be so quick to state that they can’t be changed?

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
miniross wrote:
Now its 3 on 1, stella, Zeb and Terrible ivan.

you guys must now beat up the one lone gay dude, surely.

Feel free to chime in. And for the record, although I agree with many of the key anti-homosexual angles being broadcast here, I don’t think forlife perceives himself as getting beat up. He does have the occasionally good analogy he brings into the thread.

To say the least, some of his posts are thought-provoking. If I thought this guy didn’t have the intellectual capacity to hold his own ground, I wouldn’t be wasting my time responding.

Peace be with you.[/quote]

I just want to add, I like forlife. :slight_smile:

We might not agree on…um…err well anything…but I like him.

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
forlife wrote:
Clearly, homosexuality is not accepted in contemporary US culture to the degree it has been accepted in other cultures, where even the majority of straight men have sex with one another.

No way. This is the craziest thing I’ve read in this entire thread. Maybe it’s a typo or maybe I’m getting cross-eyed but are you alleging that the majority of straight men outside the United States are sodomizing each other?!?!?
[/quote]

Yea…he brings that up occasionally and it’s just sort of weird. Almost like that’s the way he would LIKE IT to be.