Listen dude. I have a strong faith in god and his works. Religion is where I develop a problem. Do you think that people are gay against God’s will, and that there’s nothing he could do about it? Think about it. All things happen for a reason and all things exist because God allows them to. Period.
If:
-God has a plan for us all and we all interweave together in that plan
-God has a reason for everything
-God doesn’t make mistakes
Then:
-God’s plan includes the homosexuals
-There’s a reason he allowed homosexuals to come into this world
-God doesn’t make mistakes. Period.
To think that anyone, including the homosexuals, could do anything but god’s will is vain indeed.
By this same awesome train of logic, God allows murders, rapes, torturing of children. Ergo, you worship someone whose plan includes torturing children.
Not a Christian, but people who worship a God who they then try to force into logical corners are very silly people.[/quote]
Just want everyone to realize that my name is in this post but abolutely none of my words appeared in it. Someone many pages ago cropped my ideas out but left my name in the response… It seems to have caused some confusion. I don’t ascrbe to any of the aforementioned content above.
It’s interesting how Spartans were mentioned in this thread as examples of peoples who engaged in sodomy during ancient times. How widespread or accepted this practice was amongst them, I honestly have not studied to any appreciable degree. A segment of the ancient Greeks however, were also known to prostitute young boys whom they assigned to male mentors for sex acts. This reminds me of how sodomy and other perverse acts such as pedophilia go hand-in-hand in society, despite how liberated and prominent a given civilization might be.
It’s just alarming if the stats as ZEB posted them (about homosexuals comprising the largest proportion of child molestation crimes) are true. Coupled with the concept that (as even pro-homosexuals admit) environmental factors play a role in fostering homosexual tendencies in children, and we have a serious cause for concern.
Since homosexuality is no longer classified as a mental disorder (whether due to a politically correct conspiracy or valid scientific research) then further studies must be conducted to exhume how this anomaly in preference is replicated and/or deleted. I give credit to institutions which assist homosexuals in altering their preferences as it promotes scientific investigation. The simple fact that some homosexuals have successfully altered their preferences to heterosexuality is promising.
What’s more, I find it troubling that the majority of homosexual men have hundreds of partners during their lifetimes and that 87% of them have had sexual encounters with women. Clearly, more investigation is needed before homosexuals are continually awarded rights to adopt children or marry.
If homosexuality can’t be classified as a psychological deficiency, it simply reinforces my religious belief that homosexuality is a severe spiritual deficiency. If this is purely a spiritual defect, it coincides with my assessment that the majority of homosexuals are ravenous when it comes to any form of sex, whether it be with men, women, children, or potentially even animals. Given the rate of disease amongst homosexuals and it appears their collective lust as a population knows no boundaries or patience when it comes to acts of sex; as if their minds are entirely consumed by the carnal passions of their flesh during every opportunity of sodomy or fornication.
forlife, I commend you on sustaining 10 years in a faithful marriage. Perhaps you forget to reflect that heterosexuals are not often at peace or satisfied with their spouses - so keep that in mind next time you ramble about how being married to someone contrary to your gender preference was the sole cause of unhappiness during those 10 years.
Perhaps your spiritual guides never taught you this but the purpose of marriage was/is to ascend into holiness and by the process of procreation, the development of a family that’s an archetype of the Church. Perhaps you were stronger, more calculating, or more controlled than your hypersexual counterparts during those 10 years, or possibly blessed with an inner grace & blessing from above which helped you endure. Just keep in mind that the next John, Mike, or Dan you stick your penis into might not be as cautious or concerned for your personal welfare.
Either way, not me, not ZEB, nor anyone else will be responsible for you in the long run. You will be accountable for your own actions if there’s an afterlife and if the Lord indeed resurrected (which I believe He did). All I can say is that you be cognizant of your actions and what influence they’ll have on your children’s psychospiritual dispositions. There’s more to life than sex. If you can share the companionship of men without falling into sexual immorality, then more power to you. If you can not, then I allege that you’re far from happy, far from peaceful, and currently unfulfilled with your life.
And last but not least, remember that the prodigal son was welcomed with open arms.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote: It’s just alarming if the stats as ZEB posted them (about homosexuals comprising the largest proportion of child molestation crimes) [b]are true.[/quote]
As noted earlier in this thread, homosexuality is not pedophilia. If it were, do you think the American Academy of Pediatrics would state that homosexuality is not a mental illness and that gay youth should not attempt to change their sexual orientation due to the damage that may occur?
NARTH likes to claim homosexuals prey on children, by highlighting cases of pedophilia happening between men and boys. What they don’t tell you is that those men are interested in children (pedophiles), and are NOT interested in other men (homosexuals).
Dr. William C. Holmes, Assistant Professor of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, authored a study in the December 1998 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association that reports that 98% of all male perpetrators who had sexually abused boys were identified in their families and communities as heterosexual.
According to A.N. Groth and H.J. Birnbaum, “Adult Sexual Orientation and Attraction to Underage Persons”, Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1978, 7:175-181
Roland Summit, M.D., Head Physician, Community Consultation Service, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center:
Research study:
Another research study:
[quote]Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as “fixated;” 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals.
Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that “in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women…There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males…” (p.180). [/quote]
Yet another:
See this research as well:
[quote]Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners.
In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming).
To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects’ penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989).[/quote]
You go on to say:
Actually, every major medical and mental health organization has concluded that homosexuality does NOT need to be “cured” because there is nothing inherently wrong with it.
In fact, these scientific, educational, and medical organizations specifically state that trying to change one’s orientation can be DAMAGING and is NOT RECOMMENDED.
I won’t challenge you here, because to my knowledge there haven’t been any scientific studies on whether or not homosexuality is a spiritual deficiency. But if you look at the objective scientific conclusions of every major medical and mental health organization, you will find that homosexuality is NOT a mental illness, that people do NOT choose their sexual orientation, that sexual orientation CANNOT generally be changed, and that attempting to do so can be DAMAGING and is NOT recommended.
Go consult a dictionary. Homosexuality is not heterosexuality, pedophilia, or bestiality.
The large majority of new cases in HIV outside the US are HETEROSEXUALS. If you’re concerned about disease from unsafe sex, speak to the largest group where it will do the most good.
My ex-wife and I loved each other very much (and still do). Despite that, being in a mixed orientation marriage was enormously painful for both of us. We both realized that, and we both chose to divorce because of it. We are still friends, but we we didn’t make a good husband and wife.
If you want to learn about more REAL experiences about mixed orientation marriages, instead of the lies perpetrated by the religious right, check out:
“The Other Side of the Closet” by Amity Buxton
and
“My Husband is Gay” by Carol Grever
It may come as a shock to you, but I agree! It is wonderful to finally be living with integrity, to experience the validation of being known and appreciated for who I am, and to experience loving relationships that aren’t based on a sham.
[quote]forlife wrote:
My children just woke up, and I told them some people were wondering if they love me or not. Here is their answer:
I do Emma age7
I do Noah age5[/quote]
I am glad they love you. What you don’t realize is that there are people on this thread who love you too (albeit, not in the same way as your children).
Just think, if you were a true homosexual who never was with a woman, you wouldn’t have these two kids. Think what you would be missing. The love of a child cannot come from man laying with man.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
Just think, if you were a true homosexual who never was with a woman, you wouldn’t have these two kids. Think what you would be missing. The love of a child cannot come from man laying with man.[/quote]
I’ve always been a “true homosexual”, but I haven’t always been happy and at peace. I feel fortunate to have reached a point of integration in my life, but it has been despite religion rather than because of it. I know that is difficult for you to understand given how you see the world, but it is true nonetheless. Enduring peace and happiness really can come from living outside of the religious matrix.
I have a friend who went to Guatemala with his partner to adopt a child, and they make a great family. It’s sad that some are actively working to deny the rights of parenthood to friends like mine simply because they are gay.
Being gay doesn’t keep me from being a good dad, nor does it prevent my other friends from being good parents. There’s so much happiness that comes from being a parent, and it isn’t necessary to be straight in order to experience that.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’ll take Glee’s clarity and honest insight over your religious propaganda and lies any day.[/quote]
You are mistaken you are the liar on
this thread my very confused friend.
[quote]Now, I would love to continue arguing with you, but I need to get back to my children (who haven’t realized yet that their dad is doomed to a life of unhappiness).
Have a nice weekend :)[/quote]
Yes, best to spend as much time with them as possible as the chances of you having a good relationship with them wil get more difficult as time goes on. So, best of luck with the kids!
And, if you ever decided to reenter the thread take a wack at responding to the many authors and doctors who are breaking new ground every year in getting men (and women) to change their same sex attraction. They have written about the many thousands who have had their lives changed because they believed that it could be done!
Since forlifes kids are still sleeping I’ll jump in and respond to his lies.
Oh wait…his kids have nothing to do with my responding…
Here are the facts on homosexuality and pedophilia.The old “homosexuality is not pedophilia” defense does not work.
Talk about playing with words!
Being a homosexual does not mean that you are a pedophile. I think we all agree on that I’m happy to say. However, many pedophiles happen to be homosexuals.
In fact, they are over reprsented in the pedophile population. (Almost 33% of all child molestation is from a pedophile who happens to he a homosexual male. And only about 2% of all men are homosexual!
Now why do you suppose that is?
That feeling you have is there because deep down you are out from under it, so to speak. You have given up the fight …it’s over in your mind so life is easier…for now!
However, living with integrity is not what you are doing!
And some years down the road you will realize that truly living with integrity means fighting the good fight, which is always difficult…But in the long run well worth it.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Yes, best to spend as much time with them as possible as the chances of you having a good relationship with them wil get more difficult as time goes on. So, best of luck with the kids![/quote]
Heh, you’re not saying anything that isn’t true of any parent with a teenager
Back to ignoring the conclusions of every major medical and mental health organization, I see. These organizations have reviewed the research, sifted out the biased crap that was done by NARTH, and concluded that sexual orientation CANNOT generally be changed, and that attempting to do so is both DAMAGING and ILL-ADVISED.
People can listen to an extremist religious organization like NARTH, with an OVERT homophobic agenda. Or they can listen to the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Surgeon General, the World Health Organization, the American Association of Social Workers, and every other major medical and mental health organization.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
In fact, they are over reprsented in the pedophile population. (Almost 33% of all child molestation is from a pedophile who happens to he a homosexual male.[/quote]
Try 2% (see the study I provided earlier).
I tried living a lie for 20 years, by pretending that I was straight. Not surprisingly, it didn’t lead to happiness and peace.
Now that I have set aside the religious propaganda, and chosen to live with integrity, I am happier, more productive, and more at peace in my life.
Maybe those medical, mental health, and educational organizations are actually onto something when they counsel people not to try changing their orientation. Hmmm, makes ya think!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
I’ll take Glee’s clarity and honest insight over your religious propaganda and lies any day.
You are mistaken you are the liar on
this thread my very confused friend.
Now, I would love to continue arguing with you, but I need to get back to my children (who haven’t realized yet that their dad is doomed to a life of unhappiness).
Have a nice weekend
Yes, best to spend as much time with them as possible as the chances of you having a good relationship with them wil get more difficult as time goes on. So, best of luck with the kids!
And, if you ever decided to reenter the thread take a wack at responding to the many authors and doctors who are breaking new ground every year in getting men (and women) to change their same sex attraction. They have written about the many thousands who have had their lives changed because they believed that it could be done!
How many studies did I post 60 or 70 I think.
Best to you,
Zeb
[/quote]
Zeb,
You have presented a large amount of evidence. Neither forlife nor glee will accept it because it would force a drastic lifestyle change, but I do believe some good will come from what you have posted.
If anyone who is unbias or wavering in their believe reads the evidence you have presented, I am certain they will see the problems surrounding homosexuality.
I obviously don’t have the time to debunk every one of the poorly designed or misquoted studies that Zeb is fond of quoting. However, I have a propostion for you.
Pick out the single most compelling study in your list. I don’t care what it is…just take your best shot.
I’m willing to look at it, and explain to you either why the study itself is flawed, or how you are misquoting it. But only on one condition.
You must, in return, agree to actually address my points. In the past, when I’ve taken the time to do this, Zeb has literally ignored my entire post and pretended it didn’t exist.
If I’m going to take the time to show you why Zeb’s “evidence” isn’t accepted by the major medical and mental health organizations, the least you can do is actually consider and address the reasons I present.
[quote]terribleivan wrote:
ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
I’ll take Glee’s clarity and honest insight over your religious propaganda and lies any day.
You are mistaken you are the liar on
this thread my very confused friend.
Now, I would love to continue arguing with you, but I need to get back to my children (who haven’t realized yet that their dad is doomed to a life of unhappiness).
Have a nice weekend
Yes, best to spend as much time with them as possible as the chances of you having a good relationship with them wil get more difficult as time goes on. So, best of luck with the kids!
And, if you ever decided to reenter the thread take a wack at responding to the many authors and doctors who are breaking new ground every year in getting men (and women) to change their same sex attraction. They have written about the many thousands who have had their lives changed because they believed that it could be done!
How many studies did I post 60 or 70 I think.
Best to you,
Zeb
Zeb,
You have presented a large amount of evidence. Neither forlife nor glee will accept it because it would force a drastic lifestyle change, but I do believe some good will come from what you have posted.
If anyone who is unbias or wavering in their believe reads the evidence you have presented, I am certain they will see the problems surrounding homosexuality.
Hats off to you for your resilience.[/quote]
I guess for most people their misgivings with homosexuality are not base on any evidence beforehand, but based on religious dogma.
It is possible to find data for and against to back up frankly any argument, but unless you have the time or inclination to read and critique them for quality and value, then really all that is going to happen is story telliing.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
It’s interesting how Spartans were mentioned in this thread as examples of peoples who engaged in sodomy during ancient times. How widespread or accepted this practice was amongst them, I honestly have not studied to any appreciable degree. A segment of the ancient Greeks however, were also known to prostitute young boys whom they assigned to male mentors for sex acts. This reminds me of how sodomy and other perverse acts such as pedophilia go hand-in-hand in society, despite how liberated and prominent a given civilization might be.
It’s just alarming if the stats as ZEB posted them (about homosexuals comprising the largest proportion of child molestation crimes) are true. Coupled with the concept that (as even pro-homosexuals admit) environmental factors play a role in fostering homosexual tendencies in children, and we have a serious cause for concern.
Since homosexuality is no longer classified as a mental disorder (whether due to a politically correct conspiracy or valid scientific research) then further studies must be conducted to exhume how this anomaly in preference is replicated and/or deleted. I give credit to institutions which assist homosexuals in altering their preferences as it promotes scientific investigation. The simple fact that some homosexuals have successfully altered their preferences to heterosexuality is promising.
What’s more, I find it troubling that the majority of homosexual men have hundreds of partners during their lifetimes and that 87% of them have had sexual encounters with women. Clearly, more investigation is needed before homosexuals are continually awarded rights to adopt children or marry.
If homosexuality can’t be classified as a psychological deficiency, it simply reinforces my religious belief that homosexuality is a severe spiritual deficiency. If this is purely a spiritual defect, it coincides with my assessment that the majority of homosexuals are ravenous when it comes to any form of sex, whether it be with men, women, children, or potentially even animals. Given the rate of disease amongst homosexuals and it appears their collective lust as a population knows no boundaries or patience when it comes to acts of sex; as if their minds are entirely consumed by the carnal passions of their flesh during every opportunity of sodomy or fornication.
forlife, I commend you on sustaining 10 years in a faithful marriage. Perhaps you forget to reflect that heterosexuals are not often at peace or satisfied with their spouses - so keep that in mind next time you ramble about how being married to someone contrary to your gender preference was the sole cause of unhappiness during those 10 years.
Perhaps your spiritual guides never taught you this but the purpose of marriage was/is to ascend into holiness and by the process of procreation, the development of a family that’s an archetype of the Church. Perhaps you were stronger, more calculating, or more controlled than your hypersexual counterparts during those 10 years, or possibly blessed with an inner grace & blessing from above which helped you endure. Just keep in mind that the next John, Mike, or Dan you stick your penis into might not be as cautious or concerned for your personal welfare.
Either way, not me, not ZEB, nor anyone else will be responsible for you in the long run. You will be accountable for your own actions if there’s an afterlife and if the Lord indeed resurrected (which I believe He did). All I can say is that you be cognizant of your actions and what influence they’ll have on your children’s psychospiritual dispositions. There’s more to life than sex. If you can share the companionship of men without falling into sexual immorality, then more power to you. If you can not, then I allege that you’re far from happy, far from peaceful, and currently unfulfilled with your life.
And last but not least, remember that the prodigal son was welcomed with open arms.
Peace be with you.[/quote]
Stella
Are the people wrestling or kissing in your picture.
I tried living a lie for 20 years, by pretending that I was straight. Not surprisingly, it didn’t lead to happiness and peace.[/quote]
“I tried living like the rest of the world but I found it was not a perfect existance. And I define happiness in an odd sort of way.”
“Now that I don’t have anymore silly rules to live by and chosen to accept my sin and the tremendous health risks as normal i’m happier here in the short term.”
“Maybe the politically correct APA and those who followed suit understand that pandering to a select group can pay off by not having them harass you any longer. Yea…now I don’t even have to think.”
(By the way did you get back to me on the 70 or so studies that you unfairly maligned without reading? No I guess not. It’s much easier to live in a bubble and say over and over again “since I did not change then no one can.”)
"Pedophiles And Homosexual Activists Push For Total Sexual Liberation.
In August, 2003, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) filed a lawsuit against the state of Kansas over the state’s criminal sodomy law involving children.
The ACLU is defending Matthew Limon, a homosexual who committed sodomy against a 14-year-old boy in 2000. At the time of his crime, Simon was 18 years old. The ACLU is claiming that Limon’s conviction is unconstitutionally discriminatory because the penalties for sodomy with a minor are different than for heterosexual sex with a minor.
Kansas Attorney General Phill KIine says the fairness of Limon’s sentence should be a state legislative issue, not a constitutional one. According to Kline, “If the ACLU wins in the thrust of their arguments, it means the state has no right to say that it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a 13-year-old child.” Kline also fears that an ACLU victory will make it difficult for the state to enforce laws against polygamy, incest, bestiality, and other sexual perversions.
The effort to abolish “age of consent” laws has been a long-time goal of homosexual activists. The 1972 Gay Rights Platform, for example, called for the abolition of all laws prohibiting sex with children. The platform demands: “Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent.”
In September, 1995, three homosexual activists published an essay entitled, “The State Of Gay Liberation” in Guide, a homosexual publication. The essay was authored by North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) co-founder David Thorstad, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Professor Richard D. Mohr, and San Francisco journalist Bruce Mirken.
Thorstad, of course, is a life-long pederast and homosexual activist who clearly describes the important linkage between homosexuality and pedophilia. In a speech given before a homosexual group in Mexico in 1998, Thorstad said: “Pederasty is the main form that male homosexuality has acquired throughout Western civilization-and not only in the West! Pederasty is inseparable from the high points of Western culture-ancient Greece and the Renaissance.” (David Thorstad, “Pederasty And Homosexuality,” NAMBLA web site)
Fellow author Professor Richard Mohr, is a homosexual activist who is an advocate for same-sex marriage and has said he hopes that homosexual marriage will help define “monogamy” out of marriage altogether. (Stanley Kurtz, “Beyond Gay Marriage,” The Weekly Standard, Aug. 4-11, 2003)
Bruce Mirken is a homosexual and San Francisco journalist who was arrested in 1998 for attempting to have sex with a 13-year-old boy he had contacted through the Internet. When he entered a Sacramento park to sodomize the boy, he was met by police who had been tracking his activities on the Internet. The charges were eventually dropped against him on a technicality.
Sexual Liberation For Children
Thorstad and Professor Mohr want sexual liberation for children and Mirken believes that AIDS activism is what will help perpetuate and strengthen the homosexual movement.
According to David Thorstad, in “The State Of Gay Liberation,” homosexuals must get back to a “radical vision of sexual freedom for all. We need to reaffirm our place in the great variety of same-sex behaviors that exist-have always existed-in human societies. We dare not allow our homosexual gift to be alienated from us by the limited vision, stifling political correctness, and erotophobic provincialism.” In short, homosexuals should openly support the promotion of adult/child sex!
Professor Mohr argues that the use of “gay youth” is a key to gaining political and cultural victories in the U.S. He writes: “…these brave youth are key to culture’s change on gay issues. Thanks to them, increasingly people know someone for whom being gay is an issue. Thanks to them the gay movement is achieving critical mass.” Bruce Mirken claims that radical AIDS activism is what will save the homosexual movement from decline.
The effort to push adult/child sex isn’t limited to these three homosexual activists. It is part of the overall homosexual movement. As author Mary Eberstadt wrote in “Pedophilia Chic: Reconsidered” in The Weekly Standard, (Jan. 1, 2001): “The reason why the public is being urged to reconsider boy pedophilia is that this ‘question,’ settled though it may be in the opinions and laws of the rest of the country, is demonstrably not yet settled within certain parts of the gay rights movement.” Eberstadt notes that as the homosexual movement becomes more mainstream, this “question” about adult/child sex will become more prominent. Homosexuals who desire sex with children will do exactly what the ACLU is doing in Kansas: Destroy all laws banning sex between adults and children."
