Brokeback Propaganda

[ZEB]

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Let’s see that’s about the 7th time that you have accused me unjustly of “bearing false witness.”

You have deliberately misconstrued, misquoted, and outright lied multiple times in this thread. I’m just calling you on it (and will continue to do so).

[/quote]

I expected this from you forlife, what else do you have left?

-The health statistics are against you.

-The polls are against you.

-Religion is against you.

-The thousands who have left the lifestyle are in essence against you.

You can continue to whine and cry about what you read, and of course name call as I have come to expect that from you and your crowd.

One of the problems:

You live in a kind of a bubble. And inside that bubble everyone is politically correct and oh sooo very careful not to offend anyone.

And when you step into the real world and get a taste of the facts it sort of hurts your feelings, and at the very least is upsetting. While hurting your feelings is not my intent I am going to continue to shed some light into that little fantasy world you live in.

It is going to get even more painful for you from this point on. There is no way to avoid it as the facts for those who enter into the typical homosexual lifestyle, and participate in the primary gay sex act are bleak as we have seen from the volumes of documented data that I have shared.

So be it.

I will continue to post the facts regarding homosexuality, it’s dangers and the way out for all who care to read it.

Have a nice night.

Zeb

[forlife]

I have news for you, Zeb. You won’t believe me, but it’s true.

You are the one living in a bubble. It is created by your religious views, and you are blind to any evidence which contradicts how you choose to see the world.

No matter how much lying you do, you can’t change the REALITY that EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH ORGANIZATION DISAGREES WITH YOU.

You have claimed that ALL of these organizations have forsaken their commitment to science, and that their conclusions about homosexuality are worthless.

You have ignored the 33 studies cited by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which directly contradict your claim that they are simply going with the crowd.

You have similarly ignored the definitive statements from the American Medical Association, the American Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization, the Surgeon General, and all the other major medical and mental health organizations regarding the facts about homosexuality.

People can choose to listen to people like you with a self-admitted religious agenda. Or they can listen to every major medical and mental health organization, which directly contradict your claims.

Meanwhile, enjoy your bubble and be careful to avoid the pinprick of logic and science. Continue lying for the Lord, while ignoring the commandment not to bear false witness. Sleep well at night, knowing that no amount of objective data will sway you from your religious crusade.

[Gleemonex]

[quote]Gleemonex wrote:
Proviso: I generally don’t like making long posts – they’re empty of pathos and impact, and are utterly boring most of the time.

ZEB wrote:
Sorry Glee, I hate reading long posts.[/quote]

Oh come now, we both know you enjoy long posts. Just look at the verbal diarrhoea you’ve spewed on this thread in the last few pages.

You’re just stomping and pouting and dodging my post because it’s absolutely flawless [1]. But I don’t blame you – I’d do the same if I were you.

[quote]And when I read your opening…well I just couldn’t continue as I knew what was coming.

Could you give it to me in perhaps 50 words or less?[/quote]

Easy. See my previous for the supporting material for the following synopsis:

Your ill-founded assertions against gay marriage are eclipsed only by your pointless and myopic attacks on homosexuality itself.

I have 31 spare words if you need any clarification.

Your turn.

-Glee

---

[1] Not because I’m some super-genius, but because I don’t run my mouth when I don’t know what I’m talking about. You should try it sometime.

[Gleemonex]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I expected this from you forlife, what else do you have left?

-The health statistics are against you.[/quote]

You have failed to establish a causal link between any of the statistics you’ve spouted, and homosexuality. Your use of such statistics against homosexuality, or same-sex marriage, are therefore scientifically invalid. That doesn’t even take into account your misleading and/or wanting selection of statistical data.

-The polls are against you.

So?

-Religion is against you.

That’s the surest sign that he’s on the right track. viz Gallileo Gallilei.

I believe that only scientists can understand the universe. It is not so much that I have confidence in scientists being right, but that I have so much in nonscientists being wrong.
-Isaac Asimov

-The thousands who have left the lifestyle are in essence against you.

Does that include 1) the thousands who have reverted to their natural orientation, and 2) the thousands who continue to live “the lifestyle” in hiding?

You live in a kind of a bubble.

forlife certainly lives in a secluded little bubble. That tiny little bubble only includes all of Canada, all of Europe, most of Asia, and the overwhelming majority of medical organisations on the entire planet. But who’s counting?

And inside that bubble everyone is politically correct and oh sooo very careful not to offend anyone.

Now do we [1] call you names, or do we not? Let me know when you make up your mind.

And when you step into the real world and get a taste of the facts it sort of hurts your feelings, and at the very least is upsetting. While hurting your feelings is not my intent I am going to continue to shed some light into that little fantasy world you live in.

For a rational man, you sure are being emotional. You’re not going to break down in tears and hug your cowboyfriend by the campfire, are you?

-Glee

---

[1] If I may be so bold as to invite myself into forlife’s exclusive club.

[ZEB]

[quote]forlife wrote:
I have news for you, Zeb. You won’t believe me, but it’s true.

You are the one living in a bubble. It is created by your religious views, and you are blind to any evidence which contradicts how you choose to see the world.[/quote]

You see…here’s where you show how much of a bubble that you live in. In all sincerity let me explain this to you:

You think gays should have the right to marry.

Yet, a full 70% of all Americans do not agree that gays should marry.

You say that those of us who oppose gay marriage etc. are religious zealots.

Yet, only about 20% of the populace describes themselves as “born again” Christian fundamentalists. So who are the other 50% who live in the real world and oppose gay marriage?

You are the one living in the bubble!

No matter how much lying you do, you can’t change the REALITY that EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH ORGANIZATION DISAGREES WITH YOU.

There you go again with the name calling. I have not told any lies, but since you have run out of arguments you have to name call. It’s a pitiful defense my friend.

As to your assertion above regarding “major medical orgs” All they have done is pretty much fall in lock step with the APA who sold out long ago to the powerful gay lobbies and the politically correct.

Do you want me to publish the truth again for you? I already did so a few times.

And in essence they are saying that homosexuality is not a mental disease.

So what?

Are they saying it’s safe? No.

Are they saying that it leads to a longer life? No.

Are they saying it’s conducive to happiness? No.

Are they saying that gays should marry? No.

Hey when you look closely at what they are actually saying they agree more with me than you!

But…a wise man once said: “We always seem to find what we are looking for.”

I suggest that you are currently doing this by closing your eyes to the facts.

People can choose to listen to people like you with a self-admitted religious agenda.

What about those 70% of Americans who agree with me? Only about 20% of them are fundamentalist Christians.

Who are the other 50%?

Want me to tell you now, or do you want to actually address it?

Continue lying for the Lord, while ignoring the commandment not to bear false witness.

I know you like name calling as it’s about all you have left. But at this point I am going to have to insist that you point out exactly where I have “lied.” I know it’s easy to type that word (only four letters). But you will find it much more difficult to actually point out what I have lied about.

And be specific as I will take you to task if you attempt in any way to mischaracterize what I have written.

I submit to you that if you cannot come up with actual lies then you must do the manly thing and apologize for your accusation.

Sleep well at night, knowing that no amount of objective data will sway you from your religious crusade.

That’s funny, I was almost about to type the same thing in conclusion (without the religious crusade part of course). I have given you volumes of data showing the dangers of the typcial gay lifestyle and the primary gay sex act.

Yet, I think because you have a same sex attraction you don’t want to believe any of it.

Part of this is because you think you can’t change. Hence, you are caught in a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand at one point in your life you saw homosexuality as something that you wanted to leave, and tried to do so. On the other hand you think now that it’s impossible to leave so you are stuck defending it.

My advice to you would be to seek different therapy than the one which you undertook a few years back.

Why give up? Thousands of those with same sex attraction have indeed become attracted to those of the same sex. And is it any wonder as 87% of all homosexual men have stated that they had sex with women! Looks like you already have a good start. And with the proper therapy who knows?

It’s a matter of finding something that will work for you. You won’t find that something sitting on a computer and insisting that homosexuals live a healthy, safe and long life.

Listen carefully: NO ONE BELIEVES THAT (I doubt even think you do). Everyone is aware that something is amiss with that entire lifestyle (and act). And that is one reason why homosexual men lead the way in sexually communicable disease. And why 65% of all new HIV cases are homosexual men. That’s something like 450,000 homosexual men each year falling victem to HIV. Horrible!

-They have a shorter lifespan and a host of other problems as well.

You can’t blame any of that on society. Homosexuals are doing this to themselves. Why? Because the majority are not fulfilled in such a life and never will be! That pushes them to seek more and more sex partners, and other thrills (such as drugs which is prevalent in the gay community) to fill a void that cannot be filled.

I’ve posted the statistics before, everyone has read them and you have not even disputed them.

It’s time to look in the mirror and decide that you are in control of your destiny, not certain sexual urges. Urges that you did not give into for nine years!

In that nine year period I am sure that you had many happy moments with your wife and children. Think back to those times. And keep thinking about them as you seek new treatment!

God Bless,

Zeb

[ZEB]

[quote]Gleemonex wrote:
ZEB wrote:

You have failed to establish a causal link between any of the statistics you’ve spouted, and homosexuality. Your use of such statistics against homosexuality, or same-sex marriage, are therefore scientifically invalid.[/quote]

“causal link” LOL

Can you establish a link between a fat woman eating twinkies each day and becoming fat?

Can I establish a link between gay men changing sex partners like underwear and becoming infected with the HIV virus?

Can I establish a link between anal sex and disease?

That’s funny stuff that you post.

As I have said before, you have yet to add one significant thing to this thread!

Try harder.

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Yet, a full 70% of all Americans do not agree that gays should marry.[/quote]

1. You do realize there is a world outside of the United States right (see bubble comment earlier)?

2. Even within the United States, acceptance of homosexuality has grown steadily in the last 15 years. According to Gallup polls, it has risen from 35% in 1989 to 54% in 2004. That’s right, a MAJORITY of Americans actually accept homosexuality now, and the trend to greater acceptance continues to Grow!

As to your assertion above regarding “major medical orgs” All they have done is pretty much fall in lock step with the APA who sold out long ago to the powerful gay lobbies and the politically correct.

Provide proof or stop lying. You have yet to prove that every major medical and mental health organization has failed to do their own research, is politically correct, and is blindly following the APA.

I provided an example of the American Academy of Pedriatics, which cited 33 scientific studies in their policy statement on homosexuality. I’m still waiting for you to acknowledge this evidence. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

And in essence they are saying that homosexuality is not a mental disease.

Selective amnesia again? You’re only addressing one fourth of what these organizations have concluded. I’ll lay it out for you once again:

Every major medical and mental health organization has reviewed the research and unanimously concluded that a) homosexuality is not a mental illness, b) people do not choose their sexual orientation, c) sexual orientation cannot generally be changed, and d) attempting to change one’s orientation can be harmful and is NOT recommended.

But at this point I am going to have to insist that you point out exactly where I have “lied.”

I stand by my statements regarding your honesty. I will continue to call you out when you lie.

For example, you intentionally misquoted me as having said that homosexuals were attracted to women. You then had the gall to ridicule my “statement”…one that I had never made, and one which you had actually made yourself!

I have given you volumes of data showing the dangers of the typcial gay lifestyle and the primary gay sex act.

And every time I specifically address your “data” and show how it is either a) irrelevant, b) based on shoddy scientific design, or c) blatantly misquoted, you outright ignore my points and then bring up the data a few posts later, as if I hadn’t already shown it to be incorrect.

Your refusal to acknowledge the conclusions of every major medical and mental health organization regarding homosexuality doesn’t make those facts go away.

Why give up? Thousands of those with same sex attraction have indeed become attracted to those of the same sex.

See the above conclusions by every major medical and mental health organization, to the effect that people cannot generally change their orientation, that trying to do so is NOT recommended, and that it can be damaging.

And why [b]65% of all new HIV cases are homosexual men.

Just out of curiosity, are you EVER going to acknowledge the fact that outside of the United States, the large majority of new HIV cases are heterosexuals? I’ve provided the data several times now, and as usual you just stick your head in the sand every time I bring it up.

In that nine year period I am sure that you had many happy moments with your wife and children. Think back to those times. And keep thinking about them as you seek new treatment!

The main source of unhappiness in my life came from trying to change who I was. Once I accepted myself, there was a dramatic and enduring increase in my happiness and peace. But don’t take my word for it. Go back read what every major medical and mental health organization has concluded regarding homosexuality.

[ZEB]

You have not pointed out any instances where I have told a lie as I have not.
I now realize how and why you are using the word “lie.” And in this post I will use the word “lie” as you have!

[quote]forlife wrote:

…within the United States, acceptance of homosexuality has grown steadily in the last 15 years.
[/quote]

You are a liar!

(Caught you early huh?

Homosexuality has actually slipped in approval and here is the proof.

“Gay-marriage bans bulldozed to victory in all 11 states that voted on the measure: Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/initiative.htm

Below about half the people don’t even think homosexuality should be legal, much less have the right to marry:

“In the study, based on telephone interviews with 1,006 adults nationwide between July 25 and July 27, 48 percent of participants stated that homosexuality should be legal, with 46 percent stating it should not.”

“(2003)A new USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll released on Monday showed a dramatic decline in acceptance of homosexuality and the rights of same-sex couples to form civil unions and receive similar legal rights as married couples.”

“Texas voters overwhelmingly approved a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage, making their state the 19th to take that step. In Maine, however, voters rejected a conservative-backed proposal to repeal the state’s new gay-rights law.”

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2003/07/29/2

I know you guys want this to be just like the African American movement, but it’s just not working out that way. Voters are mature enough to recognize that who you have sex with is a choice just as you said it was in a few of your posts where you let your guard down.

Any gains that might have been made in the 80’s or 90’s will be reversed!

See this yet?

“BOSTON --Supporters of an initiative to ban same-sex unions in Massachusetts delivered boxes of petitions to the secretary of state on Wednesday, the next step in their quest to overturn the 2003 court ruling that legalized gay marriage.”

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/12/07/gay_marriage_opponents_collect_170000_signatures_for_petition/

You guys are losing all over the place and you can read about it above if you like. Or, you can remain in your politically correct gay bubble, it’s up to you.

By the way why did you lie about the acceptance of homosexuality?

Provide proof or stop lying. You have yet to prove that every major medical and mental health organization has failed to do their own research, is politically correct, and is blindly following the APA.

Let me remind you that you are the one who is lying (by your own apparent defintion).

As the person submitting the evidence the onus of proof is on you, not me, you silly man.

Making a list of organizations that say being a homosexual is not a mental illness does not prove a thing. (Maybe it isn’t a mental illness who knows?)

Now would you please stop lying and give me the evidence which these wonderful instutions have. Or is it that they don’t have any and simply marched in lock step with the polluted APA?

Oh my…

And why 65% of all new HIV cases are homosexual men.

Just out of curiosity, are you EVER going to acknowledge the fact that outside of the United States, the large majority of new HIV cases are heterosexuals? I’ve provided the data several times now, and as usual you just stick your head in the sand every time I bring it up.

Oh no you are LYING AGAIN…gasp

(taps lifer on the shoulder) Now you know as well as I do that the male homosexual population is only about 1% to 2% of the total. I would think that they would indeed be second (Or even lower) in all stats compared to hetersexuals. Why do you play this game, it only makes you look bad.

The fact that 65% of all HIV cases are homosexual men in the US is staggering.

Now tell us again why you won’t address that?

It seems that two men having anal sex with a large degree of partners spreads disease…go figure!

The main source of unhappiness in my life came from trying to change who I was. Once I accepted myself, there was a dramatic and enduring increase in my happiness and peace.

I’m sure that anyone who finally gives up struggling with a major problem as you have feels some sort of ease at first. What the heck if you are not trying to change you are now not fighting your urge to have sex with someone of the same sex. That equals no immediate stress.

Naturally your happier, but it’s only the short term. In the long term you will be less happy. As I said in one of my very early posts to you.

You have traded your long term happiness for a very short term gain.

Tell me how good you feel about yourself when your wife remarrys and you are replaced as “Dad.” And your kids have grown up without you. I only say this to try to push you to not give up on yourself.

You wanted to change for a reason…remember that and try again.

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You are a liar![/quote]

Unlike you, I can objectively defend against your accusations.

Gallup poll results to the question, “Do you feel that homosexuality should be considered an acceptable alternative lifestyle, or not?”

Year - Percentage Acceptable
1989 - 35%
1992 - 38%
1996 - 44%
1999 - 51%
2002 - 52%
2004 - 54%

Source:
http://www.publicagenda.org/issues/red_flags_detail.cfm?issue_type=gay_rights&list=2&area=1

Your accusation that I lied is hereby proven false.

Now, how about this lie from you:

And his sometimes goofy logic: “homosexual men can easily be drawn sexually to a woman.” (yea oooookay…)

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Voters are mature enough to recognize that who you have sex with is a choice just as you said it was in a few of your posts where you let your guard down.

Of course who you have sex with is a choice. Everyone together now:

Sexual behavior is different from sexual orientation.

As the person submitting the evidence the onus of proof is on you, not me, you silly man.

YOU are the one accusing every major medical and mental health organization of fraud, and stating that their conclusions are worthless. Therefore, it is YOUR responsibility to back up your claim.

I’ve provided an example of 33 scientific studies on which the American Association of Pediatrics based their policy statement regarding homosexuality. That directly disproves YOUR accusation that the American Association of Pediatrics didn’t conduct their own research, and blindly followed the APA in the name of political correctness.

You have yet to acknowledge this evidence. Burying your head in the sand doesn’t make it disappear.

(taps lifer on the shoulder) Now you know as well as I do that the male homosexual population is only about 1% to 2% of the total. I would think that they would indeed be second (Or even lower) in all stats compared to hetersexuals. Why do you play this game, it only makes you look bad.

For a second there, I actually thought you were going to acknowledge the evidence I provided earlier. Here, let me help you out one more time:

From BBC News:
HIV heterosexual infections soar

[quote]For the first time, twice as many heterosexual than homosexual patients are now being told they have the disease.

Throughout the 1990s, most new cases of HIV infection occurred in gay men.

However, that situation changed in 1999 and heterosexual patients now account for a growing proportion of reported cases. [/quote]

From Irish Health:
HIV among heterosexuals increasing

[quote]The number of heterosexual people, particularly women, contracting HIV in Ireland is on the increase, new figures from the National Disease Surveillance Centre (NDSC) have shown.

According to the figures which cover the first six months of this year, 157 people were diagnosed with HIV, with heterosexuals accounting for 70% of cases. Of these, 80% were women.[/quote]

From eMedicine Consumer Health:

Some 90% of all new HIV infections occur in developing countries, such as in Africa and Asia, where the vast majority of cases are transmitted by sexual relations between men and women (heterosexual intercourse).

If you actually read the quotes this time, you will see that the LARGE MAJORITY of HIV cases outside the U.S. are HETEROSEXUALS. So I will ask once again: Why don’t you focus your religious crusade where it will do the most good? Clearly, by sheer numbers, you would do far more good by educating those poor heterosexuals on safe sex practices. Or could it be that you are less concerned with doing good than with pushing a homophobic agenda?

Naturally your happier, but it’s only the short term. In the long term you will be less happy. As I said in one of my very early posts to you.

It’s been 2.5 years, and my happiness is still going strong. Before choosing to divorce, I asked several divorced gay men if they were still happy at this point in their lives and if they regretted their decision. 100% of them said they were happier today, and that they had made the right decision. Some of them had been divorced for more than 30 years. Which makes the following statement a lie:

You have traded your long term happiness for a very short term gain.

You also said:

Tell me how good you feel about yourself when your wife remarrys and you are replaced as “Dad.” And your kids have grown up without you. I only say this to try to push you to not give up on yourself.

I’ll ask my kids tonight when I pick them up for the weekend, whether or not they still consider me their dad. I’ll be sure to get back to you on that one.

One friend of mine told me this week that his ex-wife is remarrying, and that he was invited to the wedding reception. Imagine that! Yet another friend shared that he spends Thanksgiving every year with his ex-wife and her husband. Isn’t it odd how all those stereotypes dissolve when you get to know real people?

But as I said, don’t take my word for it. Listen instead to every major medical and mental health organization, which has concluded that people generally cannot change their orientation, and that attempting to do so can be DAMAGING and is NOT RECOMMENDED.

[Gleemonex]

[quote]Gleemonex wrote:
You have failed to establish a causal link between any of the statistics you’ve spouted, and homosexuality. Your use of such statistics against homosexuality, or same-sex marriage, are therefore scientifically invalid.

ZEB wrote:
“causal link” LOL[/quote]

Not causal link LOL. Just causal link.

But keep laughing, because that’s a very effective debating tactic against scientific fact.

Can you establish a link between a fat woman eating twinkies each day and becoming fat?

Depends on the woman. But that’s besides the point.

Can I establish a link between gay men changing sex partners like underwear and becoming infected with the HIV virus?

Doubtful, or I imagine you would have done it by now.

Can I establish a link between anal sex and disease?

Remeber, it’s a causal link. You should go learn the basics of debating before you continue.

[quote]That’s funny stuff that you post.

As I have said before, you have yet to add one significant thing to this thread![/quote]

And you were proven diametrically wrong the last time you said it.

Try harder.

I’ll try harder if I feel the need.

-Glee

[ZEB]

Liar liar pants on fire…ever say that when you were a kid?

I bet you said that a whole bunch of times. Were you also the kid who always told on everyone?

Okay…never mind…

(It gets no better than this folks…sorry)

You think because you cite one poll that that dictates the change you favor?

See how you misrepresent the facts?

No one is ever going to believe you if you keep this up.

Here you go:

“(2003)A new USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll released on Monday showed a dramatic decline in acceptance of homosexuality and the rights of same-sex couples to form civil unions and receive similar legal rights as married couples.”

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2003/07/29/2

Below about half the people don’t even think homosexuality should be legal, much less have the right to marry:

“In the study, based on telephone interviews with 1,006 adults nationwide between July 25 and July 27, 48 percent of participants stated that homosexuality should be legal, with 46 percent stating it should not.”

What you did was take one itty bitty poll and attempt to make this claim:

“Acceptance of homosexuality is growing…”

OH NO LOOK OUT EVERYONE IS ACCEPTING IT…LOL

You are…(clears throat) A LIAR! by your very own defintion!

Case Closed! NEXT:

[quote]Of course who you have sex with is a choice. Everyone together now:

Sexual behavior is different from sexual orientation.[/quote]

Oh no YOU ARE LYING AGAIN!

Remember saying that it was in fact a “preference?” Then you said something about “fulfillment?” Then switched to “choice” for a while. Now you have settled in on the word"orientation." And that’s where you currently reside.

Did you lie when you first stated that it was a preference and then a fulfillment and then a choice?

If it’s all about “orientation” then you must have lied on the three previous words. Unless of course they mean the same thing.

Do they all mean the same thing or did you LIE AGAIN?

YOU are the one accusing every major medical and mental health organization of fraud,

Oh I’m sorry by your definition you have committed yet another LIE! (dramatic organ music plays).

Please point out exactly where I stated that they were committing fraud.

Definition of fraud: :“Deliberately deceiving. Using deception to perpatrate a hoax, spoof or a swindle.”

Now where did I ever state that?

Answer: NO WHERE…

Which means according to your very own definition of lying that YOU ARE A LIAR!

(I admit it- I sort of like this game you created. And I think I’m good at it. Well, at least as good as you.)

CASE CLOSED, NEXT:

If you actually read the quotes this time, you will see that the LARGE MAJORITY of HIV cases outside the U.S. are HETEROSEXUALS. So I will ask once again: Why don’t you focus your religious crusade where it will do the most good? Clearly, by sheer numbers, you would do far more good by educating those poor heterosexuals on safe sex practices. Or could it be that you are less concerned with doing good than with pushing a homophobic agenda?

Let me see, I think I see at least one or two lies here.

First of all, “homophobic” means that I (or whomever) is afraid of gays. That you cannot prove as I have never once told you that I was afraid of gay people. And in fact I have no fear of gay people.

Now I would normally let this slide as I know it’s just a word that the politically correct use in order to scare people away from the topic.

But, since we are playing the “fit for life game.”

I have to call it as I see it.

So:

YOU LIED!

As far as your ass backwards (Ha ha) statistics, I already corrected you on this. I will do it again however: Since there are more people in the heterosexual population there should be more cases of HIV.

But what you should be asking is this:

Why are 65% of all new HIV cases homosexual men? When in fact they represent about 2% (or so) of the population?

You have been dodging that question for about 20 or 30 posts!

Does that make you a liar again? No I don’t think even your sloppy standards of being a liar would encompass that.

Let’s just say you are being selective in what you respond to.

Okay…You are wrong again (yawn).

Case closed, NEXT:

[quote]It’s been 2.5 years, and my happiness is still going strong. Before choosing to divorce, I asked several divorced gay men if they were still happy at this point in their lives and if they regretted their decision. 100% of them said they were happier today, and that they had made the right decision. Some of them had been divorced for more than 30 years. Which makes the following statement a lie:

You have traded your long term happiness for a very short term gain.[/quote]

Ha ha…wow you talked to “several divorced gay men?” How many is “several?” Let me see in your tiny world that could mean as many as…5? Okay let’s say 10, that would be several. But wait…what if you lied(we know you like to lie) and actually didn’t talk to any?

Hmmm…oh what the heck I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

So 10 divorced gay men are happy and that makes me a liar?

You are getting frustrated… I have one thing to say about that:
Thank you

I’ll ask my kids tonight when I pick them up for the weekend, whether or not they still consider me their dad. I’ll be sure to get back to you on that one.

That’s not what I’m talking about. Of course they consider you their Dad right now. But when she gets married again you are odd man out!

Or do you think everything is going to stay exactly the same as it is right now? If so you are more naive than I originally thought.

One friend of mine told me this week that his ex-wife is remarrying, and that he was invited to the wedding reception. Imagine that! Yet another friend shared that he spends Thanksgiving every year with his ex-wife and her husband. Isn’t it odd how all those stereotypes dissolve when you get to know real people?

Well golly there forlife I guess I must have been mistaken then huh (hits self in head). LOL you nut!

Think about what you just typed. Go ahead reread it right now.

First of all, that is one example. That would be ONE get it? Second of all, just because he is invited to a freaking wedding does not mean that he is going to play the role of life long father to two small children!

(knocks on forlifes head) Hello anyone home?

“la la la la…weeeeee” Everything is hunky dory in the land of forlifes bubble…things just always work out if you only follow your lusts.

Wahahaha

(Sorry I couldn’t help it)

people generally cannot change their orientation, and that attempting to do so can be DAMAGING and is NOT RECOMMENDED.

“Generally cannot change?” Odd how you worded that huh? You then do realize that according to every major study on the matter that from 30% to 60% have and do change!

In addition to that not changing is absolutely damaging in a number of ways both physically and emotionally!

You can keep pretending everything is alright, and I hope it is, I really do. But there will come a day when things come unglued and when they do remember what your ole’ pal Zeb tried to tell you.

Write back soon.

Your friend,

Zeb

[ZEB]

Gleemonex,

I like what Louie Simmons said about science. I paraphrase the following:

“I try things and when they work I use them, if they don’t work I don’t use them. This is the real world and we don’t have time to go into a test lab.”

If a person eats a large amount of doughnuts everyday he will probably get fat.

If a person smokes three packs of cigarettes each day he will probably not have healthy lungs.

If a person drinks a couple of six packs each day he is probably doing some sort of damage to his liver.

If a person performs the primary sex act of a homosexual male and or lives the gay lifestyle he is probably going to die younger, and have social, emotional and physical problems while he’s alive.

If you don’t understand any of the above attend a Louie Simmons seminar sometime and try to understand that it’s best to do what works and avoid what obviously does not work.

All the politically correct bullcrap that you have swallowed and then spew out won’t help you one bit in the end.

Bye for now,

Zeb

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You think because you cite one poll that that dictates the change you favor?[/quote]

I backed up my statement with a series of polls conducted over several years by Gallup, one of the most respected polling agencies. Your accusation was unfounded.

Remember saying that it was in fact a “preference?” Then you said something about “fulfillment?” Then switched to “choice” for a while. Now you have settled in on the word"orientation." And that’s where you currently reside.

More twisting of my words (which is another form of lying). You continue to REFUSE to acknowledge the difference between sexual orientation and behavior (despite the major medical and mental health organizations making this distinction).

In addition, you continue to DISHONESTLY imply that my statements about sexual behavior are actually statements about sexual orientation. I never said any such thing. People CHOOSE their sexual behavior. They DO NOT CHOOSE their sexual orientation. Got it?

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

[quote]Please point out exactly where I stated that they were committing fraud.

Definition of fraud: :“Deliberately deceiving. Using deception to perpatrate a hoax, spoof or a swindle.”[/quote]

You said:

[quote]1. The APA sold their soul to the homosexual agenda.

2. Taking this and running with it the organizations you listed did NONE of their own research and assumed the APA to be the experts in this area. [/quote]

By anyone’s definition, a professional organization behaving in this manner would be considered fraudulent. By accusing these organizations of having committed these crimes, you thereby accuse them of having committed fraud.

First of all, “homophobic” means that I (or whomever) is afraid of gays.

Selective amnesia again, Zeb? As defined for you earlier, homophobia also refers to aversion toward homosexuality (which you have admitted to feeling, and have displayed abundantly in this thread).

Since there are more people in the heterosexual population there should be more cases of HIV.

You’re still dodging my question. If you really cared about people, why wouldn’t you focus your religious crusade on the sheer numbers of where you would do the most good (i.e., the heterosexual population)? Or maybe you’re pushing a homophobic agenda after all?

Why are 65% of all new HIV cases homosexual men? When in fact they represent about 2% (or so) of the population?

Another misrepresentation, since once again you aren’t clarifying that your statistic is limited to the US. Outside the US, the large majority of new HIV cases are heterosexuals.

So 10 divorced gay men are happy and that makes me a liar?

It only takes 1 happy divorced gay man to prove you a liar, since you have made a blanket judgment of the entire population that long term happiness is impossible. Or did I misread you? Are you actually admitting that long term happiness IS possible for divorced gay men??

Of course, like I said, you don’t have to take my word for it. You only need to read the conclusions of every major medical and mental health organization.

That’s not what I’m talking about. Of course they consider you their Dad right now. But when she gets married again you are odd man out!

Fair enough…I’ll get back to you when my ex-wife remarries and let you know Here again though, I have several gay friends that have stayed close to their kids after divorcing, and continue to be considered great dads by them.

First of all, that is one example. That would be ONE get it? Second of all, just because he is invited to a freaking wedding does not mean that he is going to play the role of life long father to two small children!

See above.

“Generally cannot change?” Odd how you worded that huh? You then do realize that according to every major study on the matter that from 30% to 60% have and do change!

More lies, based on flawed or misquoted studies. Here’s what the major medical and mental health organizations have concluded, based on a review of both shoddy and well-conducted research:

American Academy of Pediatrics:

Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.

Did you catch that? The American Academy of Pediatrics cited 33 scientific studies in their policy statement, and concluded that reparative therapy is CONTRAINDICATED. That’s a big word, I know, so here’s the definition:

To indicate the inadvisability of (a medical treatment, for example).

The American Academy of Pediatrics also found that there is little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation!

National Association of Social Workers:

Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful. NASW believes social workers have the responsibility to clients to explain the prevailing knowledge concerning sexual orientation and the lack of data reporting positive outcomes with reparative therapy. NASW discourages social workers from providing treatments designed to change sexual orientation or from referring practitioners or programs that claim to do so.

Wow…the leading professional organization for Social Workers found that there is NO reliable scientific data on the effectiveness of reparative therapy. What does that say about the flawed studies you are fond of citing? In addition, the National Association of Social Workers found that reparative therapy can be HARMFUL!

From “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel”:

The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

But wait, that’s not all! The Governing Council of the American Counseling Association (ACA) approved a motion that the association:

opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based in ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender orientation.

I could provide more, but you get the point. Or do you?

[Gleemonex]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Gleemonex,

I like what Louie Simmons said about science. I paraphrase the following:

“I try things and when they work I use them, if they don’t work I don’t use them. This is the real world and we don’t have time to go into a test lab.”[/quote]

So you’re saying you’ve tried anal sex with a man in the real world?

If a person eats a large amount of doughnuts everyday he will probably get fat.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

If a person smokes three packs of cigarettes each day he will probably not have healthy lungs.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

If a person drinks a couple of six packs each day he is probably doing some sort of damage to his liver.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

If a person performs the primary sex act of a homosexual male and or lives the gay lifestyle he is probably going to die younger, and have social, emotional and physical problems while he’s alive.

This is the third and last time I’m going to ask: What primary sex act are you talking about?

And while you’re at it, please define this ‘gay lifestyle’ you keep talking about.

If you don’t understand any of the above attend a Louie Simmons seminar sometime and try to understand that it’s best to do what works and avoid what obviously does not work.

Thanks, I’m not interested in having sex with a man – I already know just about as much as I need to about homosexuality. But you go ahead and do whatever floats your boat.

All the politically correct bullcrap that you have swallowed and then spew out won’t help you one bit in the end.

Considering your track record in this thread, I think I’ll proceed without your advice, thanks.

-Glee

[terribleivan]

This is an extemely important issue, so I will summarize the debate:

People with strong morals believe homosexuality is wrong and that it is damaging the fiber of our county.

People without strong morals believe homosexuality is OK because they do not believe they are affected by what other people do in the bedroom (Note: they are wrong - the facts show everyone is affected).

Homosexuals profess homosexuality to be OK because admiting it is damaging means they have to change their entire lifestyle and admit they have done something wrong.

I hope this helps everyone!

Peace out.

[ZEB]

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I backed up my statement with a series of polls conducted over several years by Gallup, one of the most respected polling agencies. Your accusation was unfounded.[/quote]

“Unfounded?” Because you say so? Ha ha hardly.

I had a number of pollsters including USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll. They all contradict your specific read. Therefore according to your rules you are a liar. Remember it’s your game.

There are currently about half the states with many more to follow who are actually putting anti gay marraige laws on the books!

In 19 states gay marriage came up for a referendum and was voted down by an average of 70% against gay marriage!

LOL that’s not even close my man. Not even close!

And even in states where there is currently a gay marriage law there are dangers of voters over turning liberal judges decisions.

I pointed out Mass to you:

“BOSTON --Supporters of an initiative to ban same-sex unions in Massachusetts delivered boxes of petitions to the secretary of state on Wednesday, the next step in their quest to overturn the 2003 court ruling that legalized gay marriage.”

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/12/07/gay_marriage_opponents_collect_170000_signatures_for_petition/

Voters are flatly rejecting the gay lifestyle all over the country!

They agree with me…not you…

Cry all you want. At this point I’d like to offer you some cheese with that “whine.”

(I made a funny…oh I know it’s not new…but so what.)

More twisting of my words (which is another form of lying).

Did Mommy or Daddy lie to you when you were young or something? Oh…never mind I know you had a perfect childhood and now you have a perfect homosexual life…and um everything is perfect…I forgot.

By the way, you have used many words to describe “what you do.” Go back and read them.

This describes it well:

“Remember saying that it was in fact a “preference?” Then you said something about “fulfillment?” Then switched to “choice” for a while. Now you have settled in on the word"orientation." And that’s where you currently reside.”

That would make YOU THE LIAR ONCE AGAIN

You continue to REFUSE to acknowledge the difference between sexual orientation and behavior

I was waiting for you to change the word “orientation” for the 4th time I think.

Tell me again now…when you were having sex with a woman you didn’t enjoy that behavior? Not in the least, so therefore you are not “oriented” to have sex with her. But you were aroused…(scratching head). Yea…ooookay.

You see, that’s where we heteresexals get sort of confused.

You have sex with women (yes that’s a behavior) and you were “up” obviously to the performance. Yet, you say you really want to screw men in the butt which makes you more happy. But if you were able to have sex with a woman I would think that would also please you …no?

Then, when I say that the typical hetersexual man cannot have sex (as in unable) with another man, you start talking about sparta and prisoners having sex…and other nutty talk.

And then of course there is that whole stat where 87% of all homosexual men have had sex with a woman. You know that’s just freaking odd man.

Then you try to blame society for it and that just does not cut it. If you are not sexually aroused then you would not be having sex. Society has nothing to do with it.

See what I mean?

In addition, you continue to DISHONESTLY imply that my statements about sexual behavior are actually statements about sexual orientation. I never said any such thing. People CHOOSE their sexual behavior. They DO NOT CHOOSE their sexual orientation. Got it?

They choose their sexual behavior? Hmm…so if Joe heterosexual decided that on Saturday he wanted to make it with the mailman then he could?

Nope…I don’t think it works that way. I don’t think he would be sexually aroused by the mailmans fat hairy butt. Or even the substitute mailmans skinny butt…no I think you are all wet and very much using politically correct “speak” on that one.

Try selling it to someone in a gay bar, but not here on T-Nation…Nope.

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

If you want to get all Biblical again, I’ll have to remind you that “homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven.”

That would mean that you are going to hell…not a good place to be.

(Psst. here’s a secret for you…Hell is there even if you don’t believe in it)

In addition to that you are lying all over the place and I pointed them out. And I will continue to point out your lies every single time that you tell one.

You see that’s my job on this thread from here on in.

(Smile is there because I like my job.)

[quote]Please point out exactly where I stated that they were committing fraud.

Definition of fraud: :“Deliberately deceiving. Using deception to perpatrate a hoax, spoof or a swindle.”

You said:

1. The APA sold their soul to the homosexual agenda.[/quote]

Um…that’s not fraud bub!

And you have told yet another LIE

Oh the shame of it…Oh wait I forgot you have no shame.

:)<

As defined for you earlier, homophobia also refers to aversion toward homosexuality (which you have admitted to feeling, and have displayed abundantly in this thread).

Oh cool we get to make up our own definitions of words…ha ha.

look up “phobia” genius!

Never mind I’ll do it for you as I don’t think you can be trusted at this point…what with all your lying.

Phobia- “Irrational persistent fear.”

Here’s the politically correct word that you want to throw in there to rationalize attacking people with the homophobia word.

Aversion- “feeling dislike or reluctance.”

Phobia does not mean “aversion” in the real world! And that is a perfect example of the politically correct bubble you live in.

You and your fellow PC chums say “homophobia” so much you actually start to think it means what you want it to mean.

But not even you guys can change the english language!

Sorry.

Let’s see you tried to make up your own definition for a word. Let me think…that would mak you…A LIAR!again…now how many times is that I lost count.

But you are none the less a liar once again.

You ought to be ahsham…oh never mind I forgot…

[quote]Why are 65% of all new HIV cases homosexual men? When in fact they represent about 2% (or so) of the population?

Another misrepresentation, since once again you aren’t clarifying that your statistic is limited to the US.[/quote]

Ha ha…it’s a CDC statistic! Why don’t you take a cold shower and wake up. Get your head out of your own ass (hey that was funny huh?)

The CDC is a US government agency! Of course it represents US statistics. LOL

(famous Zeb eye roll)

It only takes 1 happy divorced gay man to prove you a liar,

And my Uncle John lived to be 96 and smoked cigarettes every day of his life.

Does that mean you should smoke cigarettes?

Being desperate to make your point has made you into…(oh good here it comes again) a liar. And you know what? You are not a very good liar. I don’t know why you wanted to play this game. You are losing badly.

[quote]“Generally cannot change?” Odd how you worded that huh? You then do realize that according to every major study on the matter that from 30% to 60% have and do change!

More lies, based on flawed or misquoted studies.[/quote]

It seems that you are the one lying again!

WOW your entire post was filled with lies…who would have thought it…you are such a nice guy too. dang…you never know how people are going to turn out.

HERE ARE MY STUDIES WHICH CLAIM CHANGE IS POSSIBLE

And prove YOU to be the liar!

(May 9, 2001). Press Release, National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, Prominent Psychiatrist Announces New Study Results: “Some Gays can Change.” Available at http://www.narth.com/docs/spitzerrelease.html (last updated May 8, 2001.)
“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Acosta, F., (1975) Etiology and treatment of homosexuality: review. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 4:9-29.
??better prospects for intervention in homosexual life and in its prevention through the early identification and treatment of the potential homosexual child.? (p. 9)
Aries, P. and A. Bejin, ed., Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.

Bieber, I., et al. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals. NY: Basic Books.
?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment. Although this change may be more easily accomplished by some than by others, in our judgment a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.? (p. 319)
Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5:409-421.
?We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%.? (p.416)
Cappon, D., (1965) Toward an Understanding of Homosexuality. Englewoord Cliffs NJ: Prentice-Hall.
Of patients with bisexual problems 90% were cured (i.e., no reversions to homosexual behavior, no consciousness of homosexual desire and fantasy) in males who terminated treatment by common consent. Male homosexual patients: 80% showed marked improvement (i.e., occasional relapses, release of aggression, increasingly dominant heterosexuality)? 50% changed.? (p. 265-268)
Clippinger, J., (1974) Homosexuality can be cured. Corrective and Social Psychiatry and Journal of Behavior Technology Methods and Therapy. 21, 2:15-28.
?Of 785 patients treated, 307, or approximately 38%, were cured. Adding the percentage figures of the two other studies, we can say that at least 40% of the homosexuals were cured, and an additional 10 to 30% of the homosexuals were improved, depending on the particular study for which statistics were available.? (p. 22)
Fine, R., (1987) Psychoanalytic theory. (in Diamant L. Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches. Washington: Hemisphere Publishing.) 81-95.
??a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual? If patients were motivated, whatever procedure is adopted a large percentage will give up their homosexuality? The misinformation that homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women?? (p. 85-86)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
"The second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)
Goetze, R. (1997) Homosexuality and the Possibility of Change: A Review of 17 Published Studies. Toronto Canada: New Directions for Life.
44 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
Hatterer, L., (1970) Changing Homosexuality in the Male. NY: McGraw-Hill.
49 patients changed (20 married, of these 10 remained married, 2 divorced, 18 achieved heterosexual adjustments); 18 partially recovered, remained single; 76 remained homosexual (28 palliated ? 58 unchanged) ?A large undisclosed population has melted into heterosexual society, persons who behaved homosexually in late adolescence and early adulthood, and who, on their own, resolved their conflicts and abandoned such behavior to go on to successful marriages or to bisexual patterns of adoption.? (p. 14)
James, Elizabeth (1978) Treatment of Homosexuality: A Reanalysis and Synthesis of Outcome Studies (unpublished PhD dissertation, Brigham Young University, on file with Brigham Young University Library).
Elizabeth James meta-analyzed over 100 outcome studies published between 1930 and 1976, and concluded that when all the research was combines, 35% of homosexual clients “recovered” and 27% improved.
Kaye, H., Beri, S., Clare, J., Eleston, M., Gershwin, B., Gershwin, P., Kogan, L., Torda, C., Wilber, C. (1967) Homosexuality in Women. Archives of General Psychiatry. 17:626-634.
??optimism in the psychoanalytic treatment of homosexual women. ?at least a 50% probability of significant improvement in women with this syndrome who present themselves for treatment and remain in it.? (p. 634)
Kronemeyer, R. (1980) Overcoming Homosexuality. NY: Macmillian
?For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy it is ?curable?.? (p.7)
MacIntosh, H. (1994) Attitudes and experiences of psychoanalysts. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association. 42, 4: 1183-1207.
824 male patients of 213 analysts ? 197 (23.9%) changed to heterosexuality, 703 received significant therapeutic benefit; and of the 391 female patients of 153 analysts ? 79 (20.2%) changed to heterosexuality, 318 received significant therapeutic benefit. (p. 1183)
MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.
422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.
Marmor, J. (1975) Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation Disturbances. (In Freedman, A., Kaplan, H., Sadock, B. Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry: II, Second Edition. Baltimore MD: Williams & Wilkins)
?This conviction of untreatability also serves an ego-defensive purpose for many homosexuals. ?however, there has evolved a greater therapeutic optimism about the possibilities for change? There is little doubt that a genuine shift in preferential sex object choice can and does take place in somewhere between 20 and 50 per cent of patients with homosexual behavior who seek psychotherapy with this end in mind.? (p. 1519)
Newman, L., (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J., Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA: NARTH.
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Pattison, E.M., Pattison, M.L. (1980, December) ?Ex-Gays?: Religiously Mediated Change in Homosexuals. American Journal of Psychiatry. 137 (12): 1553-1562.
Authors evaluated 11 white men who claimed to have changed sexual orientation from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality. Corollary evidence suggests that the phenomenon of substantiated change in sexual orientation without explicit treatment and/or long-term psychotherapy may be much more common than previously thought.
Rekers, J. (1988) The formation of homosexual orientation. (In Fagan, P. Hope for Homosexuality. Washington DC: Free Congress Foundation.)
?With major research grants from the National Institute of Mental Health, I have experimentally demonstrated an affective treatment for ‘gender identity disorder of childhood’, which appears to hold potential for preventing homosexual orientation in males.?
Satinover, J., (1996) Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth. Grand Rapids MI: Baker.
These reports contradict claims that change is impossible. It would be more accurate to say that all the existing evidence suggests strongly that homosexuality is quite changeable.
?Each individual?s homosexuality is the likely result of a complex mixture of genetic, intrauterine, and extrauterine biological factors combined with familial and social factors as well as repeatedly reinforced choices.? (p. 245)
“A study conducted by a homosexual couple found that out of 156 same-sex couples ‘only seven had maintained sexual fidelity; of the hundred couples that had been together for more than five years, none had been able to maintain sexual fidelity. The authors noted that the expectation for outside sexual activity was the rule for male couples and the exception for heterosexuals.’”
Schwartz, M.F., Masters, W.H. (1984, February). The Masters and Johnson treatment program for dissatisfied homosexual men. American Journal of Psychiatry. 141 (2): 173-181.
?Certain individuals who want to change their homosexual preference can be helped by a short-term intensive intervention. The failure rate in helping dissatisfied homosexuals establish heterosexual lifestyles after the intensive phase of the intervention was 20.9%, and after 5 years? follow-up it was 28.4%.
Spitzer, Robert (May 2001) Psychiatry and Homosexuality, Wall St. Journal, A26.
“In the sample he studied, Spitzer concluded that many (homosexuals) made substantial changes (after gender affirmative therapy) in sexual arousal and fantasy–not merely behavior. Even subjects who made less substantial change believed it to be extremely beneficial.”
Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283-305.
?I submit that the case against conversion therapy requires opponents to demonstrate that no patients have benefited from such procedures or that any benefits are too costly in some objective way to be pursued even if they work. The available evidence supports the observation of many counselors ? that many individuals with same-gender sexual orientation have been able to change through a variety of counseling approaches.? (p. 287)
West, D. (1977) Homosexuality Re-examined. London Duckworth
Behavioral techniques have the best document success (never less than 30%); psychoanalysis claims a great deal of success (the average rate seemed to be about 5%, but 50% of the bisexuals achieved exclusive heterosexuality.)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford. ??we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic? All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)

Please read these studies and point out to me why you think that the authors are indeed lying. I am very serious about this and will not let this point go by the wayside.

Because if the authors are lying I will stop quoting them.

If you cannot do this then you are the one misrepresenting the facts. And this is sometimes called LYING

(I like the lying game this is fun

(I could provide more but you get the point don’t you?)

[ZEB]

Gleemonex:

Glee, as I’ve said before you really add nothing to this discussion.

In fact, I find you “irrelevant to this discussion.”

When you can actually make a cogent point let me know otherwise…

Your friend,

(only a friend will tell you the truth)

Zeb

[forlife]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:
People with strong morals believe homosexuality is wrong and that it is damaging the fiber of our county.[/quote]

In my view, people with strong morals believe in judging people as individuals rather than categorically, in ensuring equality for all (even those different than themselves), in thinking for themselves rather than letting others do the thinking for them, and in speaking the truth rather than promoting blatant falsehoods based on subjective religious beliefs.

But that’s just me

[forlife]

I’ll take Glee’s clarity and honest insight over your religious propaganda and lies any day.

No matter how you spin it, your conclusions on homosexuality are directly contradicted by every major medical and mental health organization. Think about that this weekend.

Now, I would love to continue arguing with you, but I need to get back to my children (who haven’t realized yet that their dad is doomed to a life of unhappiness).

Have a nice weekend

[terribleivan]

I hate the act, not the person. The act brings only trouble.