[quote]Professor X wrote:
If his true goal was “peace”, he would be more willing to accept others regardless of the choices they make, even if he doesn’t agree with them./[/quote]
Where in the Bible was Jesus “accepting” of all things?
Did Jesus come to bring peace?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If his true goal was “peace”, he would be more willing to accept others regardless of the choices they make, even if he doesn’t agree with them./
Where in the Bible was Jesus “accepting” of all things?
Did Jesus come to bring peace?
[/quote]
Jesus was very accepting, Zeb. He spoke to people that were outcasts of society. He allowed prostitutes to touch him and those with leprosy. He was not against those who weren’t living right or those who were cast out. He socialized with them and accepted them while trying to show them the light…because rejecting them would not have led to salvation. You should know this…if you weren’t so busy trying to find fault in everyone who doesn’t think like you.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
But Jesus ultimately died because the Roman Emperor wanted him to. He was the one with the power and authority to make it happen.
Actually you are wrong about this too.
Jesus died because God the father “wanted him to.”
And…Peace be with you 
[/quote]
Ok. So veryone should be thanking his killers, then. That’s for sure. God bless them. Peace be with them. They are certainly in heaven
[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If his true goal was “peace”, he would be more willing to accept others regardless of the choices they make, even if he doesn’t agree with them./
Where in the Bible was Jesus “accepting” of all things?
Did Jesus come to bring peace?
Jesus was very accepting, Zeb. He spoke to people that were outcasts of society. He allowed prostitutes to touch him and those with leprosy. He was not against those who weren’t living right or those who were cast out. He socialized with them and accepted them while trying to show them the light…because rejecting them would not have led to salvation. You should know this…if you weren’t so busy trying to find fault in everyone who doesn’t think like you.[/quote]
Well-said.
[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Thankfully most are not. They are still at the level of name calling and acting out emotional tirades.
I get emotional as well. I know that homosexuality is a topic of intellectual curiosity for you, and you seem to have fun debating it with others. It is my life. I’m not just a bunch of electrons here for entertainment value on a message board. [/quote]
No, and forgive me if I gave you that impression.
What I mean by this is that this whole thing called “Internet debating” is entertaining.
One can watch a serious documentary on television and call it entertainment as well.
But…the topic is quite serious on many fronts.
I am very sorry to say that in my opinion you made a very serious error by leaving that daughter along with that life.
I know you claim more happiness (for yourself) in the short term. But I can’t help but think you will have regrets when you are older and your children find out why you left. And then there are the missed moments with your children that cannot be replaced. The full impact of your decision will not be known for many years.
Here is what I see: You had a very difficult decision to make either way. And I have been in the position before of having to make a difficult life changing decsion and I can tell you that you have my empathy.
But with that said:
Leaving your wife and kids will be more costly emotionally than you can even imagine…someday.
If you had stayed with them you would be having various homosexual thoughts which I’m sure in your opinion would be quite disturbing because you could not act on them as a married man. So you would have perhaps felt like you lost something in the short term.
But I have to tell you from the bottom of my heart: leaving your wife and kids to pursue what you are currently involved in is not going to make you happy in the long run.
And that is sad.
Your intelligence leaps out from my screen, seriously. I have been at this for a while and no other person has put forth your side in such an articulate way.
And please believe me, you do have my empathy. Why do you really think I bother with this particular topic? I know that every moment that you are thinking of this topic you have some very deep rooted misgivings.
There is no life that is untouched by pain of some sort (trust me I could tell you some stories). But what you have gone through in your life has been nothing but struggle regarding the gay issue.
And I do have a great deal of empathy for you! In fact one of my wifes complaints is that I have too much empathy for too many people. I always make sure to give to just about every organization who asks of me. I’ve said it before, I’m a bleeding heart conservative.
I’m not sure but I think Jesus only preached in the synagogue a couple of times. Most of the time he spent talking to sinners in every form, tax collectors, whores, liars, thieves etc.
If his life is to be an example to us all, then how can we stand by and watch the emotional and physical pain that is produced by the gay lifestyle and be unaffected?
As I stated on another post: we are all sinners and in need of forgiveness and redemption.
Please, don’t take anything that I’ve said on this thread as something that is personally against you.
If I hated gays why would I attempt to help them? I know that you don’t look at this as help, but it is. No one (including me) ever likes to hear “you are wrong.” But sometimes we all need it at critical junctures in our lives.
I post the horrendus statistics on homosexuals, not to put you down or make you feel bad. I post them because they clearly show many gays as living a very traumatic painful life.
I may not change your mind or any of the other gay folks who happen to wonder on this thread and offer up their opinions. However, I know that there are others reading these words who might be positively effected.
And I also feel like I have at least tried to shine the light on a behavior that offers up great happiness in the short term, but delivers only pain and sorrow in the long run.
Either way, I once again thank you for offering up your opinion.
Hell, if it was up to Hollywood,and the media, we would all be gay.Entertainment and media in the new millenium is a joke.Can anybody say brainwashing.I don’t accept the propaganda.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Jesus was very accepting, Zeb. He spoke to people that were outcasts of society. He allowed prostitutes to touch him and those with leprosy.
He was not against those who weren’t living right or those who were cast out. He socialized with them and accepted them while trying to show them the light…because rejecting them would not have led to salvation. You should know this…if you weren’t so busy trying to find fault in everyone who doesn’t think like you.[/quote]
And you find fault with me? Are you accepting of all?
As to your other comments:
My question was: “was Jesus accepting of all things?” Not some things, not many things…but all things?
The appropriate answer is, he was not!
Whle he protected the whore from being stoned he did not “accept” the whore.[/b] In John 8:11 when he said to her “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
He also said in Matthew 5:29 & 30:
"If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."
Cutting off your members in order not to sin? even if it was meant as a metaphor it was still harsh condemnation.
And what about the use of the word "Hell?"
Sounds like a threat to me, better call the PC police I think that might be offensive.
Was he ever accepting of sin? Never!
And we see it again in John 5:14 after Jesus heals someone he warns him:
“See you are well again, stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”
He just could not help but offend, as he helped people not only live better lives but also have eternal salvation.
While he embraced people he did it with the focus on separating them from their sin. As he knew (obviously) that sin would lead to eternal death and separation from God the father.
If you are a Christian Professor it is your duty to help those who have fallen (those who embrace and rationalize their sin). If you fail to do so you are not treating them with love, you are turning your back on them. You are taking the path of least resistance. And that path will always be more popular, but is it correct? No!
You skipped the second question:
“Did Jesus come to bring peace?”
The answer? No!
Matthew 10:34:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
For I have come to turn a man agaisnt his father a daughter against her mother a daughter in law agsint her mother in law-a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household."
Jesus was well aware that his teachings would not be embraced by all. He was aware that most would not be saved and that those who accepted him as the son of God would absolutely be scorned by others. Even those who are close such as a relative.
Perhaps if more people attempted to emulate Jesus and offended a sinner (and we are all sinners so they are easy to fine) we would have more people turning to Christ and less pain and suffering in the world.
Or…we could take the path of least resistance and simply be accepting of everything and look away.
The choice is yours, I’ve already made mine!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Or…we could take the path of least resistance and simply be accepting of everything and look away.
The choice is yours, I’ve already made mine!
[/quote]
It isn’t your job to make the choice FOR other people. It isn’t your job to JUDGE other people. It is your job to live your life by those rules, to help others in that regard if the need arises, and to be an example to those looking at you for an example. Your examples are showing people that you are very judgemental of others, that you are not accepting unless someone lives the way you want them to, and that being a Christian is some elite club open only to those who all think the same. This was not what was being preached either.
None of teachings of Jesus have anything to do with making people’s choices for them. It isn’t your business if someone is gay. That is between them and God, not you, them and God. You are not a factor in someone else’s salvation unless they come to you or you see the specific opportunity to witness in that regard. How many people have you “converted” on this board, Zeb? Any? Even one?
How about changing one of the characters to a female cowboy and then portraying them as having a conventional affair? Oh wait a second, that story has been told a million f**king times.
If Heath Ledger’s character had been portrayed by Kate Winslett would the movie still be propaganda? Espousing the benefits of heterosexual extra-marital affairs?
IT’S A FUCKING MOVIE, A**HOLES! IT’S A PIECE OF ART!
If you don’t like gay people then don’t watch WILL AND GRACE, don’t watch BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, don’t listen to Elton John and avoid every ‘queer’ you see on the street because God knows that homosexuality is a disease and you just might catch it.
I will not be avoiding people for their sexual orientation any more than I avoid them for their skin color. In fact, some of the more interesting conversations I get to have are with gay people. Could I say the same for fundementalists?
If a**holes like the good doctor spent more time using their dazzling intellects to analyze real things instead of movies, then maybe they wouldn’t have voted to put the facsists back in the White House.
I thought I had said everything I wanted to say, but then Zeb wrote:
[quote]I am very sorry to say that in my opinion you made a very serious error by leaving that daughter along with that life.
[/quote]
More judgment. It is galling how someone can presume to know what is best for my life, having never walked in my shoes.
I told my wife that I was attracted to guys before we were married. We decided to marry anyway, because at the time we both believed that being gay was wrong. That was our mistake. We fell for the indoctrination of the religious right. We believed the false assurances that people like Zeb have promoted in this thread. We trusted our church leaders when they told us that god’s plan was for us to marry.
But you know what? It turned out to be a lie. I loved my wife deeply (and still do), but I was never able to be in love with her. After 9 years of marriage, counseling, reading books, and lots of open discussion, we mutually decided to divorce. It was an incredibly painful decision, and it wasn’t made lightly. But we both felt (and continue to feel) that it was the right and necessary decision to make.
If you want to hear real stories (as opposed to stereotypes) of people like me, read “The Other Side of the Closet” by Amity Buxton, or “My Husband is Gay” by Carol Greaver. My wife and I read these books while we were trying to decide how to handle our situation, and it was invaluable knowing how others had handled the same issues. Both books make the pain of being in a mixed orientation marriage abundantly clear.
I’m here as a living example of what happens to many (notice I said many, not all) gay men and women that listen to people like Zeb. He can quote all the NARTH studies he likes, and I can provide counterevidence from every major medical and mental health organization. But he can’t discredit my personal experience. I know firsthand the fruits that can result from following his advice.
It must be an oddity for Zeb to talk with a real person rather than making stereotypical references to “gays”. I don’t fit all those negative characteristics that Zeb likes to ascribe to homosexuals. I had a high level of integrity throughout my marriage. I never cheated on my wife. I don’t practice indiscriminate unsafe sex, I’ve never tried drugs, and I rarely drink alcohol. I’m genuinely happy and at peace with my life. Zeb doesn’t know what to do with someone like me.
My message to gay people out there is that you will find enduring happiness by living true to who you are. Don’t fall for the lies of the religious right like I did. There is huge diversity in the gay population (just like there is in the straight population). Forget the stereotypes, and realize that there are people like you, that have walked the same path and found happiness by living with integrity. There is a lot of wisdom in this quote:
[quote]Do not wish to be anything but what you are, and try to be that perfectly.
I do understand oh sanctimonious one. However, when you talk about intercepting others thoughts as they may lead to actions, it is not the same thing at all as seeing an action taking place.
Do you really think I am suggesting that people with a gun to their head are merely thinking of suicide, or that someone who is already drinking is merely thinking of drinking?
There is no comparison to thinking about something and acting it out. We are all free to think about things, even if only abjectly, but to act on those things is much different.
Think about this.
God gave me a mind and he gave me free will (as he did everyone else). It is in fact encumbent upon me to make use of these gifts in a fitting manner, or not, as I choose with my free will.
When your vigilant proactive mindset interferes in my ability to use the gifts that God has given me, you are crossing an important line. I think many religious people ignore this concept and I think it is wrong.
When you stop my lawful actions, or more realistically for this thread, the actions of people who might see a movie or practice the gay lifestyle, you are suggesting your own judgment is more important than their own struggles of free will.
By the way, your posts to me simply reek of judgment. Again, that is reserved and is not available to you, if you wish to actually be true to that which you claim.
My lack of judgment is what lets me participate anywhere, in any topic, such that I can learn from any and all. Your judgment closes your mind and endangers you to an existence lacking in depth.
Is it better to have faced temptation and triumped over it or to have never faced temptation and therefor to have never strayed. Consider which is more significant… the lack of straying, or the ability to conduct yourself appropriately in the face of it.
Free will is what allows people to face situations and make decisions for themselves. In lawful situations I think it is wrong for Christians to interfere in these tests of character, given to us by God, for our development.
You are not fit to judge the correct course of action (and neither am I).
[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Or…we could take the path of least resistance and simply be accepting of everything and look away.
The choice is yours, I’ve already made mine!
It isn’t your job to make the choice FOR other people.[/quote]
I’m not making anyone’s choice. Neither did Jesus when he told the person to stop sinning. It was the sinners choice to stop sinning.
It is however my duty to at least let them know.
You have let “people know” how you feel on many many issues…long WITHOUT BEING ASKED
(more on that to come)
I judge no one. However, I do condemn the sin.
Yes among other things.
No? then show me the scripture where it says I am supposed to be “accepting” of sin.
It’s not there my friend!
I am no more making peoples choices for them than you are when you tell some newbie to eat more.
(oops you forgot about that huh?)
Are you deciding for them that they should eat more? Or are you simply suggesting in a very strong manner that they eat more?
Is it okay to get peoples attention over their food choices but not their life choices?
Is eating less a sin?
Hmm…
THINK!
Nor is it your business if someone only wants to consume 2000 calories per day, or is it?
You are trying to help as am I.
They will utlimately do what they want.
Yes I know, Jesus said “hide your light under a basket.” And “go unto your own house and tell no one of the word of God.”
And he always told people to stop talking about the reason he came to this earth…and to always look the other way when someone is stubbling…
Oh…wait…no he said the opposite!
I think you better check your scripture on that one, as you have never been as wrong as you are with this.
[quote]How many people have you “converted” on this board, Zeb? Any? Even one?
[/quote]
How many people have read the threads and thought twice? We may never know on this earth. Even if one individual I’m happy.
But, I ask you, how many have you converted by looking the other way and playing the PC police?
I have the answer: NONE!
[quote]I am no more making peoples choices for them than you are when you tell some newbie to eat more.
(oops you forgot about that huh?) [/quote]
Zeb,
The difference, in the case you suggest above, the newbie has specifically asked for advice.
That is a HUGE difference… and is very worthy of reflection.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
It is however my duty to at least let them know.[/quote]
Not in all circumstances. It is your duty to be a witness, not to knock your ideas into people’s heads if they aren’t asking for it.
[quote]I judge no one. However, I do condemn the sin.
[/quote]
This was a lie. Lying is a sin as well. You don’t judge? Do you think you could find anyone who would even acknowledge that statement as truth?
[quote]No? then show me the scripture where it says I am supposed to be “accepting” of sin.
It’s not there my friend![/quote]
That isn’t what I wrote either. You are supposed to be accepting of others, regardless of sin. It isn’t your job to turn people away or brand them as “sinners”. You are one as well.
[quote]I am no more making peoples choices for them than you are when you tell some newbie to eat more.
(oops you forgot about that huh?)[/quote]
Didn’t forget it at all. A newbie comes here for advice on training and nutrition. Many of these same guys pm me back or make posts to thank me for that even if they didn’t like hearing it at first. Who came here for your religious advice, Zeb?
[quote]It isn’t your business if someone is gay.
Nor is it your business if someone only wants to consume 2000 calories per day, or is it?[/quote]
Again, someone came here for bodybuilding advice. Knowing how beginners think, many of them don’t even understand how to reach the final point. Their ideas are based on myth and locker room talk. Telling them their ideas are wrong is not the same as you telling someone they have to stop the gayness. This is a bodybuilding forum, not “zeb’s anti-gay emporium”.
[quote]Yes I know, Jesus said “hide your light under a basket.” And “go unto your own house and tell no one of the word of God.”
And he always told people to stop talking about the reason he came to this earth…and to always look the other way when someone is stubbling…
Oh…wait…no he said the opposite![/quote]
He sure did. He wants us to witness to others…he also wants us to not judge others. You aren’t witnessing here. You are too busy telling people how wrong they are and judging their actions as beiing against God.
Or, perhaps you are the wrong one.
[quote]How many people have read the threads and thought twice? We may never know on this earth. Even if one individual I’m happy.
But, I ask you, how many have you converted by looking the other way and playing the PC police?
I have the answer: NONE!
[/quote]
I am not trying to even pretend to be converting anyone here. There are many atheists on this board and trying to even hold a discussion with them is a waste of energy. There are scriptures about this as well.
this is not going ANYWHERE.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I thought I had said everything I wanted to say, but then Zeb wrote:
I am very sorry to say that in my opinion you made a very serious error by leaving that daughter along with that life.[/quote]
But I also said:
"Your intelligence leaps out from my screen, seriously. I have been at this for a while and no other person has put forth your side in such an articulate way.
And please believe me, you do have my empathy. Why do you really think I bother with this particular topic? I know that every moment that you are thinking of this topic you have some very deep rooted misgivings.
There is no life that is untouched by pain of some sort (trust me I could tell you some stories). But what you have gone through in your life has been nothing but struggle regarding the gay issue."
What you are looking for is a pat on the back for making the wrong decision and I’m never going to give you that.
You can find solace for your very bad decision among the PC crowd but not from me.
I only know what you tell me my friend. And what I have heard so far is not good!
That means your wife was well aware of the circumstance that she was walking into.
I agree (as I have stated several times in the past) it must have been a very difficult thing to decide. And adults have to make those decisions at times.
However, once you decided to have children you had a larger obligation than just to your wife and what you percieve as your personal happiness.
You have placed your desire to pursue homosexuality over the desire to be with your children.
That sounds harsh but that’s what happened in a nut shell.
And, I think this transcends homosexuality and speaks to a greater issue. When a man has children, he has brought into the world new lives to which heis responsible for.
That means that the childrens “happiness” comes ahead of your own. When you looked at the tears in your daughter face and left anyway…you made a mistake!
You are a good person who made a bad decision.
It matters not if that man leaves his wife for a female or another man, it’s just as wrong. You have given up your repsonsiblity to raise those two children!
How will they be raised? What will be their ultimate future?
I’m not saying there is never a reason for divorce, there is. But wanting to fullfill your homosexual desires is not a good reason.
And I wish you had talked to someone (no not a PC councilor) before you made such a foolish and all around painful (mostly for you in the long run) decision. My best advice to you right now is to go back to your wife and children if it’s not to late.
Beg for her forgiveness. You’ll thank yourself 20 years from today.
Not quite. If you had listened to “people like Zeb” you would not have left your wife and two children to live the life of a homosexual.
I also quoted many, many other sources, including the CDC and the US Justice Department.
The fruits that result by following my advice would be to stay with your wife and two children.
You have no idea what you have given up by doing what you have done.
The Joy that you would have derived by being part of your childrens life as an active live in father far outweighs any temporary thrill that you might be receiving from your current lifestyle.
No, actually I get to talk to a wide variety of people, including homosexuals, all the time. So don’t pat yourself on the back to hard.
I commend you for all of those things. And I have stated numerous times that certainly not ALL homosexuals live a promiscuious lifestyle.
forlife, you will never find long lasting happiness by abondoning your wife and children.
Short term happiness? Sure.
Long term happiness? No, only regrets in the long run my friend.
[quote]Do not wish to be anything but what you are, and try to be that perfectly.
Yes, I agree.
Can you say that you were (or are) a perfect father?
[quote]vroom wrote:
I am no more making peoples choices for them than you are when you tell some newbie to eat more.
(oops you forgot about that huh?)
Zeb,
The difference, in the case you suggest above, the newbie has specifically asked for advice.
That is a HUGE difference… and is very worthy of reflection.[/quote]
Um…BULL vroom.
I have read many posts where Prof simply gives his advice when the question was unrelated to how much they should eat.
Want to see them?
Zeb, you are not equipped to make moral judgments about other people and determine how they should live their lives. That is what I would like you to see. God is. Not you. You can say that the bible says this or that. You can say God considers something a sin based on your reading of the Bible. You can ‘educate’ them. You cannot tell someone what they should be doing instead. That this is the way they should be living their lives. Not on this or any other issue. At least not and expect people to take seriously that you are better equipped than the person themself to decide how to live their life.
[quote]mazilla wrote:
this is not going ANYWHERE. [/quote]
True. Goodnight everybody and happy weekend.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
It is however my duty to at least let them know.
Not in all circumstances. It is your duty to be a witness, not to knock your ideas into people’s heads if they aren’t asking for it.[/quote]
It is your opinion and judgement that that is what I am doing.
Hey…you are judging me. Can you imagine that?
And I don’t mind the judgement on your part.
Many judge you to be a very judgemental person by the way.
You see there is judgement going on all over the place and you are a very big part of it.
How many times have you judged the President of the United States? Hmm, you think that’s different because he is the President. Where is the provision in the Bible that says it is okay to Judge someone as long as he is the President?
Looks like you are very guilty of judging others Prof!
At least that’s how many of us judge it.
[quote]I judge no one. However, I do condemn the sin.
This was a lie. Lying is a sin as well. You don’t judge? Do you think you could find anyone who would even acknowledge that statement as truth?[/quote]
It depends on whom you ask.
If you ask the liberal side of the fence they will say what you are saying.
They judge harshly when it’s not to their liking. Just like you are judging me right now. Would you be judging me as harshly if I were posting that being gay is genetic (even though that would be a lie?) Nope!
That not only makes you a very judgemental person but a hypocrit as well.
[quote]No? then show me the scripture where it says I am supposed to be “accepting” of sin.
It’s not there my friend!
That isn’t what I wrote either. You are supposed to be accepting of others, regardless of sin. It isn’t your job to turn people away or brand them as “sinners”. You are one as well.[/quote]
I agree, I am a sinner and I have said that. However, you are not supposed to embrace sin by rationalizing it. But, you are supposed to repent of it.
Come on I know your Mom taught you this stuff you have mentioned it on the boards before. Stop playing dumb…You’re playing right? 
First of all I have seen you pick a newbie apart and make him feel so badly that I’m sure they never returned to T-Nation. Who did that help? Other than your own ego.
And sometimes the newbie did not ask for help on nutrition, you just gave it, with both barrels.
They did not ask you or anyone else about how much they should eat! You just decided to jump in and slam dunk them. You are good at that, I’ll give you credit there.
Are you trying to say that when someone enters a thread and gives their opinion, they should be prepared to get some in return?
If that’s your case, I can go along with that.
That is what has happened and will continue to happen on this forum.
By the way, I too have gotten much positive feedback via PM’s about advice that I have given. On these types of threads as well as on the traing threads.
Ha ha…prof you are full so full of crap it’s coming out your ears and spilling onto the computer…yuck LOL.
On the political or “Get A Life” threads many topics are discussed. The fact that you don’t like my opinion is fine with me.
Do you think it’s that attack republicans forum? But wait…you do that all the time huh?
Is it the attack President Bush forum?
You are a silly man prof…
[quote]I am not trying to even pretend to be converting anyone here. There are many atheists on this board and trying to even hold a discussion with them is a waste of energy. There are scriptures about this as well.
[/quote]
I agree, that’s why I don’t bother with many of them and that is Biblical as well.
It might be time to take that plank out of your won eye before you worry about mine prof. Beacuase when it comes to attack posts no one…and I mean NO ONE holds a candle to you.