[quote]forlife wrote:
Ok, now I’m getting physically sick.[/quote]
Hey you said you were leaving the thread…
I mean you did say that but you’re still posting…
I suppose you can still post…but you had such a great goodbye post.
I dunno it seems anti climactic.
Is this going to be your final post?
It’s not as good as the other final post.
Okay if it is:
Bye
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
It’d be misfortunate and tragic to raise generations of promiscuous youth who could not adhere to the simple commandments of the Lord and gain His eternal kingdom.
forlife wrote:
I just had a flashback of Ned Flanders protecting his sons from the evils of satan by singing church hymns (of course, we learn in one episode that Ned was actually the devil in disguise) >:)
That’s entertainment silly man… This is real life. You know Christ’s words better than most so don’t make me go Biblical on you!
Saint Matthew 12:25
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "[i][b]Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.[/i][/b]"
On a sidenote, isn’t it amazing how early pagans also recounted the miraculous signs and wonders Jesus Christ transmitted? The Jews, Christians, and even the non-converted pagans all testified of his miracles.
In fact, the Jews admit to having Him crucified for practicing what they deemed to be sorcery as documented in the Babylonian Talmud compiled during in the 6th century AD (the text Jewish scholars today esteem as having full authority over all other scriptures and compilations, and likewise revered as sacred by Orthodox Jews).
End of rant. Peace be with you.
[/quote]
You are an ignorant fool. The romans killed Jesus.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
Ok, now I’m getting physically sick.
Hey you said you were leaving the thread…
I mean you did say that but you’re still posting…
I suppose you can still post…but you had such a great goodbye post.
I dunno it seems anti climactic.
Is this going to be your final post?
It’s not as good as the other final post.
Okay if it is:
Bye[/quote]
I have concluded that you Zeb, are in fact a homosexual. You spend so much time thinking about gay people that it is clear you have an abundance of repressed gay feelings. You probably try to hide it because of fear of social reprisal or fear of going to hell. Such a religious person as yourself would believe gayness to be a burnworthy sin and would do anything to forget your true self. Or maybe you are one of the so called reformed gays but the treatment didn’t work and has caused great self loathing that has spilled out onto these forums. Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?
WTF is this crap?
You know what, there are all kinds of possibilities out there. However, you are still arguing for the thought police to intercept thoughts just in case someone might develop an obsession.
If a person is thinking of suicide, then you’ll only know about it if they don’t actually want to do it. Similarly with an alcoholic. It is NOT our role in this world to interfere with the free will of everyone else.
I’ll smack you in the head if you try to tell me how to live my life, figuratively speaking, I don’t want to be yet another Internet tough guy. What I think and do, within societies laws, is none of your fucking business whatsoever.
The only solid reasons to resist exhanced gay recognition are religion and bigotry. Pick your poison.
If I opened up a bible? Now you are really being a sanctimonious asshole. Is that a sin? Funny how I was able to constructively contribute to Steveo’s theological discussion of truth and help him see the significance of our flaws and role of faith in religion.
Howabout you let the big guy do the judging and let me do the worrying about it. You have absolutely no idea what I do or don’t whore my mind out to at all.
Isn’t it always the religious guys that are the quickest to judge? I hope you keep a bag of marshmallows handy when you die.
What, now you are showing pride? Or, is this supposed to be a barb? Maybe both? Both sides of this issue are taking a stand. Guess what, those that take a stand against the status quo, the majority, they are the brave ones. The gay people that came out of the closet a decade ago, they were brave. Also brave are the religiously inclined people that have the needs to think for themselves.
Tell me, how brave is it to brandish the bible, to use it is as your shield, so that you don’t actually have to take any risk at all? You aren’t taking a stand. You aren’t even speaking for yourself. You are merely echoing the word of God. As if that requires bravery.
Give your head a shake and do some serious soul searching. You seem to be in far worse trouble than I.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
You are an ignorant fool. The romans killed Jesus.
[/quote]
Wow. For someone who posted in an atheist thread tonight that they never opened the Bible in their entire life, you sure know the New Testament inside-out! I believe you now because you say so.
The Jews had nothing to do with Christ’s death, even though they confessed to having Him crucified. I guess they just want the glory of being death-dealers like their Islamic suicide bombing playpals. I guess the Romans sought to crucify Jesus Christ because he was preaching about starting warfare and revolution to usurp the emperor for the throne of the Roman Empire…
Please note the sarcasm.
Peace be with you.
[quote]vroom wrote:
You know what, there are all kinds of possibilities out there. However, you are still arguing for the thought police to intercept thoughts just in case someone might develop an obsession.
[/quote]
When I posted to Lorisco, I was citing a religious admonition. You would know that if you ever glanced over a Bible. Christians are called to be sanctified in both mind, body, and soul. Christians are thus encouraged to remain vigilant and to monitor their own thoughts and actions while the remainder of society is required to restrain only their actions.
There are situations where people allow their violent or sex-contained thoughts to run rampant and sometimes these people carry out crimes or lawless deeds (whether according to society’s standards or religion’s). The concept of the “thought police” as understood in this thread is the right for people to bear their own opinions on a matter without being mocked, judged, or ridiculed for citing alternative opinions.
We can criticize according to our wide spectrum of beliefs, but your posts were attempting to shun the freedom of speech of people sharing opposing views than yours. This is very different from someone controlling their own thoughts as a means of retaining their spiritual and/or psychological clarity.
[quote]vroom wrote:
If a person is thinking of suicide, then you’ll only know about it if they don’t actually want to do it. Similarly with an alcoholic. It is NOT our role in this world to interfere with the free will of everyone else.
I’ll smack you in the head if you try to tell me how to live my life, figuratively speaking, I don’t want to be yet another Internet tough guy. What I think and do, within societies laws, is none of your fucking business whatsoever.
[/quote]
Unfortunately for you, America’s legal code specifies other regulations. If someone is suicidal (holding a gun to their temple, a razor to their wrist, or yelling how they’re going to jump off the Empire State Building), law enforcement personnel are required to “interfere with the free will” of that person to bring them to safety. Same situation with an alcoholic who’s had too much to drink at the local bar. The waiter tells 'em they can’t drink anymore because they’re not in the proper state of mind.
Regardless, my comments were shedding light upon spiritual concepts. Frankly, I couldn’t care less about what thoughts are prancing through your head; whether singing the Beatles, envisioning being a clown in the circus, rapping about crime, what you’ll say next to try and impress T-Nation atheists, remembering clips of gay porn you recently viewed, eating apple pie, going to sleep… It’s none of my concern what you or anyone else is thinking about all day long.
For the spiritually-centered man though, Christians are called to be vigilant and watchful in both mind, body, and soul. I don’t expect you to understand what I mean so let’s leave it at that…
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
You are an ignorant fool. The romans killed Jesus.
Wow. For someone who posted in an atheist thread tonight that they never opened the Bible in their entire life, you sure know the New Testament inside-out! I believe you now because you say so.
The Jews had nothing to do with Christ’s death, even though they confessed to having Him crucified. I guess they just want the glory of being death-dealers like their Islamic suicide bombing playpals. I guess the Romans sought to crucify Jesus Christ because he was preaching about starting warfare and revolution to usurp the emperor for the throne of the Roman Empire…
Please note the sarcasm.
Peace be with you.[/quote]
Stop saying peace be with you. It’s false and sanctimonious and hardly rings true when you say it. That’s bullshit. That the Jews killed Jesus is also bullshit. Please quote chapter and verse of this admission if indeed you are claiming it is in the bible. Which it is not. If not, provide your source. The relationship between Jesus and the Jews was complicated. But Jesus ultimately died because the Roman Emperor wanted him to. He was the one with the power and authority to make it happen.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Tell me, how brave is it to brandish the bible, to use it is as your shield, so that you don’t actually have to take any risk at all? You aren’t taking a stand. You aren’t even speaking for yourself. You are merely echoing the word of God. As if that requires bravery.
[/quote]
The day you walk in my spiritual shoes and experience the sacrifices I’ve made for the purpose of salvation, then maybe you’ll understand a crumb’s worth of how the Bible is a double-edged sword rather than a shield for any human. I take spiritual risks every day (both consciously & unconsciously). And I echo the word of God not because I’ve read it in a paper book, but because it’s been inscribed in my heart. I disagreed with homosexuality even before I ever picked up a Bible and even before I knew the Orthodox Church’s stance on the matter.
My beliefs have not always corresponded with all of God’s word though. This is where the battle begins - the understanding of why something is detrimental and how one can change their behaviors/actions to get one step closer through heaven’s gates. Some people disagree with onanism (self-gratification), while others pardon this sin yet disagree with fornication (sex outside of marriage) while still others pardon this sin yet disagree with adultery (sexual contact with another individual other than one’s spouse) while still others pardon this sin yet disagree with sodomy or homosexual relations… It depends how perfected one’s focus is regarding salvation and how specific and pure one tries to remain.
Perhaps this’ll be a shock but I believe onanism is a severe sin even though the rest of society practices this on a weekly if not daily basis. I was called to be perfect because God is perfect. If you think it’s an easy and less-than-courageous life that Christians lead, you’re mistaken. Genuinely pious Christians (not those only of label who go seeking after their own worldly profit & pleasure) fight daily in the arena of this world to either increase into holiness or maintain their battle ground against the enemy. I see nothing more valiant than this…
Perhaps quoting from the Bible isn’t so brave over an internet forum, but living and applying Christ’s commandments most definitely is. In other parts of the world, professing to be a Christian would get you slaughtered, and you know what vroom? There are hundreds if not thousands of souls every year that innocently die because they choose NOT to utter words renouncing Christ in parts of Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. That’s the courage of conviction.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Isn’t it always the religious guys that are the quickest to judge? I hope you keep a bag of marshmallows handy when you die.
[/quote]
The funny thing is, I never claimed that my salvation’s been fully worked out. I sin and I need repentance. Nonetheless, it’s better to have a concept of sin because that b[/b]helps bring about repentance which is necessary for salvation and b[/b]if you’re going to burn, at least know for what sins.
Regarding judging, why don’t you educate us with your definition of the phrase as it pertains to traditional Christian theology. One way people sin is through silence. The Bible even teaches that Christians are to admonish each other and to correct brethren that have strayed from the proper modes of conduct. I never condemned you or judged your final destination to be hell. And if I implied that in my prior posts, I guess I’ll be seeing you there. You prefer vanilla or chocolate?
If your only sources are Michael Hoffman and Alan Critchley’s take on the talmud you need to do better. Why not get in touch with some Rabbis and see what they have to say about the issue?
Stellar, I must say I do respect your dedication and committment if not necessarily agreeing with what you think being holy and a good and godly person is.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Stop saying peace be with you. It’s false and sanctimonious and hardly rings true when you say it. That’s bullshit. That the Jews killed Jesus is also bullshit. Please quote chapter and verse of this admission if indeed you are claiming it is in the bible. Which it is not. If not, provide your source. The relationship between Jesus and the Jews was complicated. But Jesus ultimately died because the Roman Emperor wanted him to. He was the one with the power and authority to make it happen.
[/quote]
I can put a list together of Jewish theologians that confess their forefathers had Him executed for various reasons. Don’t mean to slack off but check google. It’s in no way a private, hidden, or concealed fact. I’ve read online articles by prominent Jewish “theologians” that support what I’ve stated yet they can also be quite vile and filthy towards Christianity. The main one as stated in the Babylonian Talmud was that His miracles were pure sorcery (of the devil) to deceive the Israelites into a false faith.
Here’s the quote from the Babylonian Talmud, volume III Sanhedrin 43a:
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
If you refer to the New Testament, Pontius Pilate symbolically washed his hands in a basin of water thus signifying that Jesus Christ’s blood was no longer on his hands (before the execution even took place). Pilate said, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.” The Jews responded, “[b]His blood be on us and on our children.[/b]” Check the Gospel according to the four authors and see for yourself.
As the governor, Pontius Pilate’s primary obligation was to keep the peace in Jerusalem. Pilate was initially tricked by Caiphas, the high priest, that Jesus Christ was planning a coup to overthrow the Roman rulers. Caiphas reported that Christ kept riling up the Jews about how He was going to harbor in a new kingdom. Pilate became alarmed about this allegation (not realizing that Christ’s mission was purely spiritual) before he investigated the matter for himself.
Being that Christ was already a prisoner and that the Passover feast was around the corner, when the time came to release Jesus Christ after flogging Him in efforts to appease the Jewish scribes & Pharisees for the sake of peace, the Jews asked for a murderer named Barabbas to be released instead.
This was a tradition between the Jews and the Romans of that era; every Passover, one Roman prisoner would be released as a tribute to the Jewish people regardless of his/her offense. Since Pontius Pilate feared a riot because of the vast multitude, and that they [the Jews] kept shouting “[i]Let Him be crucified![/i]”, the Jews had virtually complete control of the situation.
Insistent on executing Jesus Christ, Pilate was forced to comply (even though he acknowledged that Jesus Christ bore no fault). After four trials, Pontius Pilate was still baffled as to their [the Jews] eagerness and motivation to have Christ executed, “Why, what evil has He done?” Pilate says. But the Bible tells that the Jews screamed even louder rather than give a single reason for His crucifixion.
They knew from an earlier episode that by charging Jesus Christ with blasphemy, Pontius Pilate would dismiss Him as a prisoner being that Roman Law didn’t assimilate or honor the religious laws/penalties of Moses (which the Jews were bound by).
The Romans performed the actual execution, but the Jews were the ones who strong-armed Pontius Pilate. It was their [the Jews] decision to make, which prisoner hangs and which is released. It was their covert planning which caused Jesus Christ to be apprehended under slanderous charges. And it’s their own Talmud that confesses that Jesus was executed because he practiced sorcery, a practice which the pagan Romans and Pontius Pilate did NOT classify as being illegal or constituting the death penalty.
It is perfectly clear from the Bible that Pontius Pilate and Herod (as well as the rest of the Romans) found no faults with which to convict Jesus Christ. A malicious segment of the Jewish population however, had other motives. A tiny fraction of Jewish Pharisees saw the evil corruption of their peers in crucifying Jesus Christ and they even converted AFTER bearing witness to the unjust execution - Saint Nicoedmus being a prime example.
Ask yourself what motives a well-off, prominent Pharisee like Saint Nicodemus would have in detaching himself from prestigious peers and wordly glory amongst the peoples only to join a movement whose leader was just slain… I dare to venture and say that he realized the wickedness and responsibility of his peers in killing a just Man that his consciousness could not be at peace until he departed from their ranks. Sheer speculation on my part but it all adds up neatly.
This deserves its own thread. Sorry for the hijack to all you other readers.
Anyways jsbrook, if you need the quotes from Jewish sources, let me know. I can dig em up.
Laterz.
Stellar, you may well be right. The Jews may have wanted Jesus dead. That is not entirely incomprehensible given what he appeared to be at the time-the originator of a cult relgion, almost heathenistic and departing from the established practice of God. But Pilate was INSTRUMENTAL in his death. He was not a weak man. But a tyrant. He ruled with an iron fist, Jews and otherwise. Jesus would not have been executed if he did not wish it, his professions of innocence and Jewish professions of guilt notwithstanding. I wish I had time to do the research and provide you with the proper historical context I have seen everything grounded in. Maybe when the school year ends. It is something I’m interested in, and I definitely want to look into it in depth at some point.
The mentions of Jesus in the TALMUD are few and far between. In order to compare the words of the New Testament and the traditions found in the Talmud it is neccessary to relate something of the Talmud's character and origin.
The Jerusalem Talmud, the teachings of the land of Israel, had been compiled by the year 350, whereas the gigantic 12 volume Babylonian Talmud was not completed until 500 AD. When we compare the words of the Talmudic scholars with the teachings of Christ we must always ascertain which period each scholar represents.
The Talmud speaks comparatively little of Jesus. It prefers to give copious instructions as to how to approach "those who believe in Jesus the Nazarene" -- this is the general interpretation of the word Min, which is taken to be an abbreviation of Ma'aminei Jesh?a ha-Notsri.
The Talmud speaks of how "the Nazarene Yeshu" performed miracles and deceived the people; he blasphemed the learned who expounded the Torah in the manner of the Pharisees; he had five disciples;41 he said that he had come to destroy the Law, not to fulfil it;42 he was crucified on the eve of the Passover as an inciter of national unrest;43 his disciples healed the sick in his name.44 The gospels are referred to in the Talmud as av?n gilyon or ?ven gilyon, both of which mean 'sinful writing'. Some Rabbis were of the opinion that they should be burnt; others felt that the name of God ought to be removed before burning.45 Jewish scholars stress that the Talmud's criticism is not usually levelled at the person of Jesus: He is considered a Jew, and even in discussion of his crucifixion it is owned that he was "near to the kingdom of God".46
The Talmud does not doubt that Jesus and his disciples performed miracles, it merely forbids accepting help from the Minim even when one's life is in danger. From the end of the second Christian century onwards this attitude became more and more deeply entrenched.
The Talmud contains a number of passages that refer to a certain Jeshu (or Joshua) ben Pandera, who lived around 100 BCE [1]. Jeshu is said to have been the disciple of Joshua ben Perachiah, who was certainly a historical figure, being one of the most prominent rabbis of the time. During the persecution of the Pharisees by Alexander Jannaeus, which began around 94 BCE, Joshua ben Perachiah fled with Jeshu to Alexandria in Egypt, where Jeshu is said to have learned magic. Described as a learned man, Jeshu was expelled for heretical tendencies from the school over which Joshua presided. He became a religious teacher, had several disciples, and preached to ordinary people. He was accused of practising sorcery, deceiving Israel and estranging people from God. After being tried and convicted, he was stoned to death and his body was then hung up as a warning to others.
**Accomplished through a little bit of digging. I’ll do real research at some point. Maybe the Jews did kill Jesus because he was in violation of Jewish law. I don’t know that I blame them. Anyhow, the resurrection would not have been possible without the crucifiixiton. It is best seen as having been part of God’s plan.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Stop saying peace be with you. It’s false and sanctimonious and hardly rings true when you say it. That’s bullshit. [/quote]
I have stated the same thing early on. It is as if he has convinced himself that it is an honest statement and that everyone else is too blind to see his intention. If his true goal was “peace”, he would be more willing to accept others regardless of the choices they make, even if he doesn’t agree with them. There would have been no “warning” of the propoganda in a movie because, unless he assumes we are all morons, he would know we can think for ourselves.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I was one of those “ex-gay success stories” that Zeb likes to point out, and you can see now how cured I really was.
[/quote]
And because you didn’t change no one else can right?
How illogical!
And as long as you are quoting Bible verses (this is my first gang) I have one for you:
1 Corinthians 6:9 & 10:
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderes nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
I’m always sort of shocked when folks on your side start quoting the Bible as if it’s text actually agrees with the homosexual act.
No really, what you are doing is no better than the other siins listed above.
Yes, we are all sinners but we’re not supposed to embrace sin. We are supposed to repent, which means (as you know) to “turn away.”
Really, you were far better off (still losing though) leaving this argument in the present realm. Why in the world would you ever bring it to the Bible?
Odd…
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Thankfully most are not. They are still at the level of name calling and acting out emotional tirades.
[/quote]
I get emotional as well. I know that homosexuality is a topic of intellectual curiosity for you, and you seem to have fun debating it with others. It is my life. I’m not just a bunch of electrons here for entertainment value on a message board.
I’m a real guy that has had to look his 5 year-old daughter in the eyes and watch her dissolve into tears when he tells her that he’ll no longer be tucking her in every night. Had I never listened to the fundamentalist right, the deep pain of a mixed orientation marriage wouldn’t have happened. The decades of denial, repression, and deterioration could have been avoided.
Even after all of our discussion, I still get the sense that you don’t understand the personal cost being paid by so many people trying to live contrary to their orientation. You look at “success stories” of some ex-gays that are apparently happy, but you ignore the stories of people like me.
Thank you for the compliments on my debating techniques, but I would much rather have your empathy.
I’m not blaming people for what happened to me. The worst of that is over, and I’m pretty happy these days. I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it, except when I come across a thread like this. I’m just asking that people stop perpetuating the same damage in the lives of others. Please keep your preaching to your churches and synagogues, and just let people live.
[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
I have concluded that you Zeb, are in fact a homosexual. [/quote]
Yes, anyone who speaks out against homosexuality (or gay marriage in this case) is definitely gay.
(He skipped right past the ole’ “homophobe” name calling and went right into the heavy duty stuff lol)
You certainly are an odd person.
And unlike “forlife” you have really added nothing to this thread.
Try again.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
But Jesus ultimately died because the Roman Emperor wanted him to. He was the one with the power and authority to make it happen.
[/quote]
Actually you are wrong about this too.
Jesus died because God the father “wanted him to.”
And…Peace be with you 