Brokeback Propaganda

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
706

[quote]ZEB wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

Are you really talking about these hypothetical polygamous and incestual couples?

Hypothetical?

I think Polygamy has been around (and more accepted around the world) longer than two people of the same sex.

What makes you think there will not be a strong push for it if gay marriage were ever enacted.

(Wow I just had daJavu. Didn’t we did do this maybe 73 times in the past? I have an idea can I argue your side and you argue mine for a while? It might be less mind numbing. No really can we?)

ALTERNATE UNIVERSE

jsbrook ,

You don’t understand, what gives you the right to deny people the happiness that they so richly deserve based upon some religious dogma that many find offensive anyway.

I am not talking about Church weddings, the church will have nothing to do with it. This is about GOVERNMENT sanctioning.

What harm would that be?

[/quote]

Polygamy? What makes you think there would ever be a push for it in this country under any circumstances? Certainly, we have the ‘liberal and politically correct’ climate for it. The push for gay marriage is plenty strong. Why would its success make a push for polygamy that is not occuring any more likely? You think there are really a reasonable percentage of people in this country that desire numerous, polygamous realtionships to be recognized and afforded legal rights but they are simply silent because they perceive there as being no change? Seems pretty unlikely to me. There are the administrative problems of recognizing it that I already mentioned that pose big hurdles even if there was actual movement and support.

As far as what was around longer-polygamy or homosexuality who knows. Personally, I think both have been around since time immemorial. Both existed in the Greek civilization. And no one really cared. They concerned themselves with more important things.

I find your whole Alternate Universe thing completely incomprehensible. Have you been eating the magic mushrooms? What are you trying to say with that?
707

[quote]ZEB wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:

I posted a study before (not in this thread) that showed children of gay couples are no more likely than “normal” to become gay. The had the same rates of drug use, crime, etc. as “normal” kids as well.

LOL…oh stop it!

We don’t respect any sort of studies on this thread.

STUDIES MEAN NOTHING!

Surveys?

THEY MEAN NOTHING!

Statistics?

THEY MEAN EVEN LESS!

Polls done by well respected institutions?

HA! THEY MATTER NOT!

Then what does matter?

Um…not hurting anyones feelings seems to be important.

And you hurt my feelings with that silly study of yours. Therefore, I don’t accept it.

LOL (shakes head) studies… :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Zeb, please do not provide us with anymore statistics.

708

This happens anyhow. Let the adoption agencies worry about it or the states. They are the proper vehicles. Not a diffuse, national authority that does not necessarily represent the majoirty of those in particular locations. As far as that goes, I do not think I support federal law legalizing gay civil unions. It should be left to the states. And the Congress should not have the authority to overide each state’s respective stance.

709

Zeb, you still haven’t explained why your union with your wife is more legitimate than a gay couple’s.

710

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:

If you look at the research that has been conducted on gay parents, you will see that their children are just as healthy as those from straight parents. In addition, they are no more likely to be gay than children raised by straight parents. Yes, I can provide references if necessary.[/quote]

No need to provide references. I will just blow them off the way you did the 91 studies, surveys, polls etc that I provided.

This is not about proving anything. We have gone way way past that.

Your studies mean diddly my friend.

THIS IS THE INTERNET MAN…

I never said that. In fact I have stated that ALL people can’t change their orientation no more than ALL alcoholics can stop drinking.

Or, all obese people can lose weight.

(I know, I know you are offended by this…we are all offended…I’m offended, you’re offended the whole world is freaking offended.)

[quote]What about the possibility that people are at various points on the sexual orientation scale?

What about multiple etiologies for homosexuality?[/quote]

Okay both of those offend me.

Now it’s my turn:

What about perversion?

I no more know why people DON’T change than you know why people DO change!

And get this: NO ONE, NOT ANYONE ON EARTH KNOWS WHY PEOPLE ARE GAY TO BEGIN WITH!

(runs screaming out of the house)

I’m sorry but you are fast becoming a joke. Even a bigger joke than me :slight_smile:

You ignored 73 very good quality studies and much information by non-biased organizations.

When you give me an answer to my lengthy fact thread then we can play that game.

[quote]I am very serious in stating that if some people really are born that way, and there is real proof, I would change my postion!

But it they are not and it is indeed some sort of trauma that happens in their childhood (distant father, molested etc.) then that’s another story.

Again, you’re missing the point.[/quote]

Huh? Of course I’m missing the point. And you are missing my point…And we are going to continue to miss each others points…You know why?

Psst…(waves “for” in closer) It’s because we are on opposite sides of the fence on this one kid and we are not going to change…Soooooo.

But wait you missed my point…If we don’t know why people become gay then how do we know that we are not creating more gay people? (who are apparently not happy according to statistics that you will not talk about from the CDC and the Justice Department)

I want two things: 1. People to be happy 2. For liberals and the politically correct to miss my point and mischaracterize what I am stating.

Both of those things make me happy.

Now so far you have only given me one of those…

Wrong!

What really matters is if I am going to finish my answer to you before my wife calls me for dinner.

Oreintation by the way is a word over used by homosexuals.

Even the CDC calls gays “men who have sex with men.” or women with women whatever the case may be.

And thousands have changed their same sex attraction and are quite happy.

forlife: “No they are not Zeb no one can change. I couldn’t so it can’t be done…bla bla bla…”

Zeb: Oh I forgot. I can’t Bench 400 pounds so I know no one else can either.

And I can’t walk a tight rope so I know no one else can either.

And I can’t play Baseball at the Major League level so I’m sure no one else…oh wait a minute where did all those Major League ball players come from…Hmmm…

I guess some people CAN do what I cannot do…same with you BUB.

You are mentioning our private messages?

Oh my I feel violated…

LOL

Okay rules change.

And you admitted to me in a private message (as well as on the forum) that you have two kids.

Now how did that happen if you are a homosexual?

In fact 87% of all homosexual men have said that they have had sex with women.

Odd huh?

Do you think that 87% of heterosexual men have had sex with other men. NOOOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYYY.

Okay time for some answers on that one.

No no no you very confused silly man…

That means that if we can prevent what causes it we can prevent it.

And if the powerful gay lobby folks would stop running around claiming people are born that way…maybe more people would not buy into the big lie and try to get help.

And answer that one too while your at it: WHY DO THEY SAY THAT HOMSEXUALS ARE BORN THAT WAY WHEN THERE IS NO PROOF?

Want me to give you my opinion? NO? Okay I will…

PROPAGANDA.

(Bows) Thank you…thank you very much.

The more that try to get help the more will succeed.

Now please jot down your answers to the above and ignore the main points, so that I can answer doing the same in return.

Look…it’s still more fun than watching TV…(yawn)

Okay! My wife just called…tonight we are having meatloaf…Can’t have surf and turf every night.

Bye

711

[quote]forlife wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Everyone (out of jail) has thoughts and feelings that are not the best actions for themselves or the situation.

You do see the logical flaw here, right? Who are YOU to judge whether or not living according to one’s orientation is the “best action” for oneself? Do you know more than the medical and mental health organizations, which have conclusively and unanimously determined that attempting to live contrary to one’s orientation can actually be DAMAGING?

I’m really curious to know what harm you think I am causing by living true to myself as a gay man. I don’t engage in risky sex. I don’t do drugs. I’ve only been drunk ONCE in my entire life.

Please help me understand how I am hurting myself, as opposed to the very real pain that I KNOW I endured for years while repressing who I was?[/quote]

If you aren’t engaging in risky behaviors I don’t know how you would be hurting yourself, or more importantly others. Unless there is some mental trauma that goes along with it? But only you would know that.

So you say you are living responsibly, but why then are some many other gays not? Why is their behavior so way out of control? My concern has always been that gays know not to engage in certain high risk behaviors, but according to the CDC, are doing it anyway. So THAT is the issue. If they were all as responsible as you then they wouldn’t be dying at the rate they are and causing others issues as well.

So if everyone was like you apparently are, then I have no issues with that. I personally don’t agree with the lifestyle, but that is a personal choice you make and if you are not hurting others I think that is up to you.

712

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I am very serious in stating that if some people really are born that way, and there is real proof, I would change my postion!

But it they are not and it is indeed some sort of trauma that happens in their childhood (distant father, molested etc.) then that’s another story.

What would you consider “real proof”? I’m seriously curious, that’s all.

[/quote]

Oh I think I would consider anything that the powerful gay lobby’s say as real proof.

Hey…I’m not a research scientist and…um I don’t even know any…

But if we get some credible people (non biased if that’s possible) in the field to turn up something I’ll listen.

Until then NO GAY MARRIAGE

And that’s my final word on the matter now please let me go have my dinner before it gets cold or my boys eat my share…

You ever had cold meatloaf? Well let me tell you…it’s not good. Actually, when it’s hot it’s not that good but I need the protein…

Shh my wife is walking in…

713

[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:

If you look at the research that has been conducted on gay parents, you will see that their children are just as healthy as those from straight parents. In addition, they are no more likely to be gay than children raised by straight parents. Yes, I can provide references if necessary.

No need to provide references. I will just blow them off the way you did the 91 studies, surveys, polls etc that I provided.

This is not about proving anything. We have gone way way past that.

Your studies mean diddly my friend.

THIS IS THE INTERNET MAN…

I addressed this earlier, and you ignored me. I’ll try again. Please show me where the research you provided demonstrated that ALL people can change their orientation, if they are highly motivated.

I never said that. In fact I have stated that ALL people can’t change their orientation no more than ALL alcoholics can stop drinking.

Or, all obese people can lose weight.

(I know, I know you are offended by this…we are all offended…I’m offended, you’re offended the whole world is freaking offended.)

What about the possibility that people are at various points on the sexual orientation scale?

What about multiple etiologies for homosexuality?

Okay both of those offend me.

Now it’s my turn:

What about perversion?

What about all of those people in the studies YOU cite who don’t change? Where is the evidence that these people didn’t change because of lack of MOTIVATION?

I no more know why people DON’T change than you know why people DO change!

And get this: NO ONE, NOT ANYONE ON EARTH KNOWS WHY PEOPLE ARE GAY TO BEGIN WITH!

(runs screaming out of the house)

Not only are you ignoring the conclusions of every major medical and mental health organization, but you are misrepresenting the claims of the handpicked studies that you cite.

I’m sorry but you are fast becoming a joke. Even a bigger joke than me :slight_smile:

You ignored 73 very good quality studies and much information by non-biased organizations.

When you give me an answer to my lengthy fact thread then we can play that game.

I am very serious in stating that if some people really are born that way, and there is real proof, I would change my postion!

But it they are not and it is indeed some sort of trauma that happens in their childhood (distant father, molested etc.) then that’s another story.

Again, you’re missing the point.

Huh? Of course I’m missing the point. And you are missing my point…And we are going to continue to miss each others points…You know why?

Psst…(waves “for” in closer) It’s because we are on opposite sides of the fence on this one kid and we are not going to change…Soooooo.

The causes for homosexuality are IRRELEVANT.

But wait you missed my point…If we don’t know why people become gay then how do we know that we are not creating more gay people? (who are apparently not happy according to statistics that you will not talk about from the CDC and the Justice Department)

I want two things: 1. People to be happy 2. For liberals and the politically correct to miss my point and mischaracterize what I am stating.

Both of those things make me happy.

Now so far you have only given me one of those…

What matters is whether or not people can CHANGE their orientation…

Wrong!

What really matters is if I am going to finish my answer to you before my wife calls me for dinner.

Oreintation by the way is a word over used by homosexuals.

Even the CDC calls gays “men who have sex with men.” or women with women whatever the case may be.

And thousands have changed their same sex attraction and are quite happy.

forlife: “No they are not Zeb no one can change. I couldn’t so it can’t be done…bla bla bla…”

Zeb: Oh I forgot. I can’t Bench 400 pounds so I know no one else can either.

And I can’t walk a tight rope so I know no one else can either.

And I can’t play Baseball at the Major League level so I’m sure no one else…oh wait a minute where did all those Major League ball players come from…Hmmm…

I guess some people CAN do what I cannot do…same with you BUB.

and whether or not that applies to EVERYONE. You have admitted, both here and in private messages to me, that not everyone can change.

You are mentioning our private messages?

Oh my I feel violated…

LOL

Okay rules change.

And you admitted to me in a private message (as well as on the forum) that you have two kids.

Now how did that happen if you are a homosexual?

In fact 87% of all homosexual men have said that they have had sex with women.

Odd huh?

Do you think that 87% of heterosexual men have had sex with other men. NOOOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYYY.

Okay time for some answers on that one.

So if that is true, how is that any different from being born gay?

No no no you very confused silly man…

That means that if we can prevent what causes it we can prevent it.

And if the powerful gay lobby folks would stop running around claiming people are born that way…maybe more people would not buy into the big lie and try to get help.

And answer that one too while your at it: WHY DO THEY SAY THAT HOMSEXUALS ARE BORN THAT WAY WHEN THERE IS NO PROOF?

Want me to give you my opinion? NO? Okay I will…

PROPAGANDA.

(Bows) Thank you…thank you very much.

The more that try to get help the more will succeed.

Now please jot down your answers to the above and ignore the main points, so that I can answer doing the same in return.

Look…it’s still more fun than watching TV…(yawn)

Okay! My wife just called…tonight we are having meatloaf…Can’t have surf and turf every night.

Bye

[/quote]

We get it, Zeb: you don’t like fags. Get over it.

714

I’ve made the points I wanted to make here. If people don’t have an open mind by this point, they probably never will.

Again, my sincere thanks to my brothers-in-iron out there who are willing to support equality for people different from yourself. You are the reason women and minorities have made social progress, and you will be the reason gays make progress in the years ahead.

At some future point, people will look back on discussions like this and shake their heads in amazement at the blind arrogance and bigotry that people perpetuated in the name of religion. Much as we are unable to understand how men of earlier generations treated women as second class citizens, or how white men could consider black men their inferiors, society will eventually recognize people as equals regardless of their sexual orientation.

715

[quote]I will however, disagree with your perspective that erotic fantasies are harmless.
vroom wrote:
Don’t look now, but this kind of thinking leads us into the realm of the “thought police”.

I cannot believe what people are willing to rationalize in order to support their conclusions.
[/quote]

vroom, isn’t it possible that people entertain thoughts and fall into patterns of obsession? Likewise, is it not uncommon for obsessed individuals to act upon their thoughts?

If a person has suicidal ideation, is it not imperative that someone step in to counsel them before they take measures to fulfill their desires? Or what about an alcoholic who entertains the simple thought of having one shot of whiskey.

This has nothing to do with you playing the role of the “thought police” whereby you classified anyone who disagrees with homosexuality as being filled with hatred and ascribing to notions of religious intolerance.

If you opened up a Bible, you might perceive how the mind is a gateway to either b[/b]further corrupting the heart or b[/b]purifiying it. But then again, you’re open-minded and whore your thoughts to everything except that which is traditionally associated with morals, values, and spiritual consequence. You say you’re open-minded while in reality you just absorb aspects of philosophy and/or theology that promote self-liberation and free-spiritedness.

It takes a man to take a stand and fall. Yet all it takes for a coward is taking no stand and receiving the world’s applause.

716

[quote]forlife wrote:
My current opinion is that both genetics and environment come into play in the expression of homosexual orientation, just as they affect the expression of heterosexual orientation.
[/quote]

Wow, you just dropped a bomb. I didn’t think you’d concede that the homosexual expression is affected by environment as well. I was going to challenge you with historical examples of twins bearing the same genes whereby one was homosexual in orientation while the other was not. I haven’t studied the research to the extent that you and ZEB have, but this invariably leads me to conclude that society should be a lot more cautious in allowing homosexuals the rights to adopt.

Perhaps, as ZEB has emphasized, we DO need to get to the bottom of what causes homosexuality so that these stimuli and/or behavior patterns can be reduced in adoptive households. It’d be misfortunate and tragic to raise generations of promiscuous youth who could not adhere to the simple commandments of the Lord and gain His eternal kingdom.

Just had to throw in the religious tangent =)

Peace be with you.

717

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
It’d be misfortunate and tragic to raise generations of promiscuous youth who could not adhere to the simple commandments of the Lord and gain His eternal kingdom.
[/quote]

I just had a flashback of Ned Flanders protecting his sons from the evils of satan by singing church hymns (of course, we learn in one episode that Ned was actually the devil in disguise) >:)

718

[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:

If you look at the research that has been conducted on gay parents, you will see that their children are just as healthy as those from straight parents. In addition, they are no more likely to be gay than children raised by straight parents. Yes, I can provide references if necessary.

No need to provide references. I will just blow them off the way you did the 91 studies, surveys, polls etc that I provided.

This is not about proving anything. We have gone way way past that.

Your studies mean diddly my friend.

THIS IS THE INTERNET MAN…

I addressed this earlier, and you ignored me. I’ll try again. Please show me where the research you provided demonstrated that ALL people can change their orientation, if they are highly motivated.

I never said that. In fact I have stated that ALL people can’t change their orientation no more than ALL alcoholics can stop drinking.

Or, all obese people can lose weight.

(I know, I know you are offended by this…we are all offended…I’m offended, you’re offended the whole world is freaking offended.)

What about the possibility that people are at various points on the sexual orientation scale?

What about multiple etiologies for homosexuality?

Okay both of those offend me.

Now it’s my turn:

What about perversion?

What about all of those people in the studies YOU cite who don’t change? Where is the evidence that these people didn’t change because of lack of MOTIVATION?

I no more know why people DON’T change than you know why people DO change!

And get this: NO ONE, NOT ANYONE ON EARTH KNOWS WHY PEOPLE ARE GAY TO BEGIN WITH!

(runs screaming out of the house)

Not only are you ignoring the conclusions of every major medical and mental health organization, but you are misrepresenting the claims of the handpicked studies that you cite.

I’m sorry but you are fast becoming a joke. Even a bigger joke than me :slight_smile:

You ignored 73 very good quality studies and much information by non-biased organizations.

When you give me an answer to my lengthy fact thread then we can play that game.

I am very serious in stating that if some people really are born that way, and there is real proof, I would change my postion!

But it they are not and it is indeed some sort of trauma that happens in their childhood (distant father, molested etc.) then that’s another story.

Again, you’re missing the point.

Huh? Of course I’m missing the point. And you are missing my point…And we are going to continue to miss each others points…You know why?

Psst…(waves “for” in closer) It’s because we are on opposite sides of the fence on this one kid and we are not going to change…Soooooo.

The causes for homosexuality are IRRELEVANT.

But wait you missed my point…If we don’t know why people become gay then how do we know that we are not creating more gay people? (who are apparently not happy according to statistics that you will not talk about from the CDC and the Justice Department)

I want two things: 1. People to be happy 2. For liberals and the politically correct to miss my point and mischaracterize what I am stating.

Both of those things make me happy.

Now so far you have only given me one of those…

What matters is whether or not people can CHANGE their orientation…

Wrong!

What really matters is if I am going to finish my answer to you before my wife calls me for dinner.

Oreintation by the way is a word over used by homosexuals.

Even the CDC calls gays “men who have sex with men.” or women with women whatever the case may be.

And thousands have changed their same sex attraction and are quite happy.

forlife: “No they are not Zeb no one can change. I couldn’t so it can’t be done…bla bla bla…”

Zeb: Oh I forgot. I can’t Bench 400 pounds so I know no one else can either.

And I can’t walk a tight rope so I know no one else can either.

And I can’t play Baseball at the Major League level so I’m sure no one else…oh wait a minute where did all those Major League ball players come from…Hmmm…

I guess some people CAN do what I cannot do…same with you BUB.

and whether or not that applies to EVERYONE. You have admitted, both here and in private messages to me, that not everyone can change.

You are mentioning our private messages?

Oh my I feel violated…

LOL

Okay rules change.

And you admitted to me in a private message (as well as on the forum) that you have two kids.

Now how did that happen if you are a homosexual?

In fact 87% of all homosexual men have said that they have had sex with women.

Odd huh?

Do you think that 87% of heterosexual men have had sex with other men. NOOOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYYY.

Okay time for some answers on that one.

So if that is true, how is that any different from being born gay?

No no no you very confused silly man…

That means that if we can prevent what causes it we can prevent it.

And if the powerful gay lobby folks would stop running around claiming people are born that way…maybe more people would not buy into the big lie and try to get help.

And answer that one too while your at it: WHY DO THEY SAY THAT HOMSEXUALS ARE BORN THAT WAY WHEN THERE IS NO PROOF?

Want me to give you my opinion? NO? Okay I will…

PROPAGANDA.

(Bows) Thank you…thank you very much.

The more that try to get help the more will succeed.

Now please jot down your answers to the above and ignore the main points, so that I can answer doing the same in return.

Look…it’s still more fun than watching TV…(yawn)

Okay! My wife just called…tonight we are having meatloaf…Can’t have surf and turf every night.

Bye

[/quote]

ZEB, I had a gay acquaintance a few years back. I avoided conversing with him over the issue because my gaydar malfunctioned until noticing he got jealous everytime I hung out with females and the fact that he kept buying my expensive gifts. He was a good guy on many levels, but I honestly think you may’ve been able to help him.

Great post by the way. You’re the go-to guy if I acquaint myself with further persons of homosxeual orientation. I primarily try to focus on the sickened disposition of the human soul and how it will be effected upon the afterlife, but you have a crazy arsenal of surveys/stats…

Peace be with you!

719

Ok, now I’m getting physically sick.

720

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
It’d be misfortunate and tragic to raise generations of promiscuous youth who could not adhere to the simple commandments of the Lord and gain His eternal kingdom.

forlife wrote:
I just had a flashback of Ned Flanders protecting his sons from the evils of satan by singing church hymns (of course, we learn in one episode that Ned was actually the devil in disguise) >:)
[/quote]

That’s entertainment silly man… This is real life. You know Christ’s words better than most so don’t make me go Biblical on you!

Saint Matthew 12:25
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "[i][b]Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.[/i][/b]"

On a sidenote, isn’t it amazing how early pagans also recounted the miraculous signs and wonders Jesus Christ transmitted? The Jews, Christians, and even the non-converted pagans all testified of his miracles.

In fact, the Jews admit to having Him crucified for practicing what they deemed to be sorcery as documented in the Babylonian Talmud compiled during in the 6th century AD (the text Jewish scholars today esteem as having full authority over all other scriptures and compilations, and likewise revered as sacred by Orthodox Jews).

End of rant. Peace be with you.

721

[quote]forlife wrote:
I’ve made the points I wanted to make here. If people don’t have an open mind by this point, they probably never will.[/quote]

Um…I hate to break this to you. But, if we are accused of having closed minds because we will not change our position, then I guess you have a closed mind because you won’t change your postion.

And…I sort of told you that’s the way it would end.

We do this for entertainment purposes really and to reach out to some who view the thread.

Oh, and my meatloaf dinner was quite good thanks for asking :slight_smile:

Currently your “brothers in Iron” are running about 70% against gay marriage.

Go figure huh?

Closed minded freaks.

Being a minority or a women is genetic. Being gay has not been proven to be genetic. Regardless of the lies that the powerful gay lobbies spew.

And I saw your thread above and I say it’s time for (drum roll) A LINK WAR…:

"Dr. Dean Hamer, a gay researcher, attempted to link male homosexuality to a stretch of DNA located at the tip of the X chromosome, the chromosome that some men inherit from their mothers. Regarding genetics and homosexuality Hamer concluded:

There is not a single master gene that makes people gay. I don’t think we will ever be able to predict who will be gay."

Maybe because it’s nurture instead of nature? Who knows?

(I have more but you just lose the reader when you post so many.)

Or, they will look back and say "why the heck were they even considering gay marriage? And then laugh a lot …

Um…you are sort of on a roll and I hate to stop you, but I have to correct you again.

Black = genetic

Women = genetic

Gay= ? (and that is being open minded. More so than your side which constantly perpetuates the big lie: “We are born that way.”

If we give special rights to your group why not others who are not genetically different?

Fair question: Where does it end?

And also that “orientation” stuff needs to end as well.

It’s guys having sex with other guys. At least that’s the way the very credible Center For Disease Control states it.

Orientation is a very nice word though…I can understand why you use it and why it is perpetuated by those who run your organizations.

Just like using the word “homophobic” casts anyone who disagrees as scared little girlie men…(However, untrue) It’s clever but we are all wise to you now.

By the way, I would be remiss if I did not congratulate you on the way you conducted yourself on this thread.

You are far and away a bigger man than pond scum like oh say harris for example. You did not once resort to name calling. And you have made better points than anyone that I have ever seen who represents your side of the argument.

I think if everyone on your side were as intelligent as you are then gay marriage would probably be assured quite soon.

Thankfully most are not. They are still at the level of name calling and acting out emotional tirades.

This turns off the general population and assures (along with other things) that gays will never achieve the legal marital status that they so covet.

Again, it was a pleasure discussing this topic with you and I wish you all the best.

Zeb

722

I like this one myself:

[quote][15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.[/quote]

People like you who tell gay people that happiness will be found by trying to change their orientation are wolves in sheep’s clothing. I saw the bitter fruit of your counsel in my own life, and it makes me sick that you continue to push your agenda on others.

I’ve personally told you about the pain that I and my family have experienced from misguided religious homophobes, and I’ve shared with you quotes like these:

[quote]The American Medical Association states that:

“Our AMA: (1) believes that the physician’s nonjudgmental recognition of sexual orientation and behavior enhances the ability to render optimal patient care in health as well as in illness. In the case of the homosexual patient this is especially true, since unrecognized homosexuality by the physician or the patient’s reluctance to report his or her sexual orientation and behavior can lead to failure to screen, diagnose, or treat important medical problems. With the help of the gay and lesbian community and through a cooperative effort between physician and the homosexual patient effective progress can be made in treating the medical needs of this particular segment of the population; (2) is committed to taking a leadership role in: (a) educating physicians on the current state of research in and knowledge of homosexuality and the need to take an adequate sexual history; these efforts should start in medical school, but must also be a part of continuing medical education; (b) educating physicians to recognize the physical and psychological needs of their homosexual patients; (c) encouraging the development of educational programs for homosexuals to acquaint them with the diseases for which they are at risk; (d) encouraging physicians to seek out local or national experts in the health care needs of gay men and lesbians so that all physicians will achieve a better understanding of the medical needs of this population; and (e) working with the gay and lesbian community to offer physicians the opportunity to better understand the medical needs of homosexual and bisexual patients; and (3) opposes, the use of “reparative” or “conversion” therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation. (CSA Rep. C, I-81; Reaffirmed: CLRPD Rep. F, I-91; CSA Rep. 8 - I-94; Appended: Res. 506, A-00)”

The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on Homosexuality and Adolescence states: Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Counseling may be helpful for young people who are uncertain about their sexual orientation or for those who are uncertain about how to express their sexuality and might profit from an attempt at clarification through a counseling or psychotherapeutic initiative. Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.6

The American Counseling Association has adopted a resolution that states that it: opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based on ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender sexual orientation.7 Further, at its 1999 World Conference, ACA adopted a position opposing the promotion of “reparative therapy” as a “cure” for individuals who are homosexual.8

The American Psychiatric Association in its position statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation states: The potential risks of “reparative therapy” are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone “reparative therapy” relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.9

The American Psychological Association in its Resolution on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation, which is also endorsed by the National Association of School Psychologists, states: That the American Psychological Association opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, and mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based in ignorance or unfounded beliefs about sexual orientation.10

The National Association of Social Workers in its Policy Statement on Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Issues: endorses policies in both the public and private sectors that ensure nondiscrimination; that are sensitive to the health and mental health needs of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people; and that promote an understanding of lesbian, gay, and bisexual cultures. Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes.11 Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful.12 NASW believes social workers have the responsibility to clients to explain the prevailing knowledge concerning sexual orientation and the lack of data reporting positive outcomes with reparative therapy. NASW discourages social workers from providing treatments designed to change sexual orientation or from referring practitioners or programs that claim to do so.13

In 2001, The US Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior asserted that homosexuality is not "a reversible lifestyle choice?.[/quote]

You can deny all you want, but the fact is that you are screwing up people’s lives. I was one of those “ex-gay success stories” that Zeb likes to point out, and you can see now how cured I really was. Every major medical and mental health organization supports MY personal experience, and shows your claims for the lies they are.

723

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

Polygamy? What makes you think there would ever be a push for it in this country under any circumstances?

1980 two guys in a bar

Bill: “Someday the Homsexuals are going to be so powerful in this country that they will demand the right to marry.”

Joe: Homsexuals getting married? What the…that will never happen man.

Bill: Someday it might…

Joe: “What makes you think there would ever be a push for it in this country under any circumstances?”

We now return you to your regularly scheduled bull crap session

724

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Zeb, you still haven’t explained why your union with your wife is more legitimate than a gay couple’s.[/quote]

Nor have I explained why it’s more legitimate than an incestuous relationship, or a polygamist relationship, or a man and dogs relationship, or a lamp and a womens relationship, and any number of wacky relationships…

725

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:

ZEB, I had a gay acquaintance a few years back. I avoided conversing with him over the issue because my gaydar malfunctioned until noticing he got jealous everytime I hung out with females and the fact that he kept buying my expensive gifts. He was a good guy on many levels, but I honestly think you may’ve been able to help him.

Great post by the way. You’re the go-to guy if I acquaint myself with further persons of homosxeual orientation. I primarily try to focus on the sickened disposition of the human soul and how it will be effected upon the afterlife, but you have a crazy arsenal of surveys/stats…

Peace be with you![/quote]

Thanks stellar, it’s a multisided that’s for sure.

I do think that we would get further with the other side if they were just more open minded…

–sigh–Oh well…