[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And being anti-homosexual is wrong, and, in my opinion, ungodly. In religions that teach acceptance, hating someone for being gay is just hypocritical. It takes all kinds. Live and let live.
[/quote]
Because you don’t ascribe to something doesn’t make you necessarily hate it - it simply means being against it. I could be anti-steroids because I don’t believe in their use or the legality surrounding the use of banned substances, but that doesn’t mean I hate steroids…
I can be accepting of a friend that becomes intoxicated every weekend, but that doesn’t mean I hate him. It simply means I’m not approving of his lifestyle.
Live and let live? Sounds good to me. Thank God for religious freedom and the freedom of speech. To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never stopped two gays from getting it on…
And about what you classify as being ungodly? You make up your own rules as you see fit, but I’ll stick with the teachings of the good book and the Church.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Therefore, if a movie shows that FOR THEM a heterosexual lifestyle IS subpar, why avoid showing this? The only explanation is that you believe people to be gay by choice as if they can simply switch gears at will and just decided to stay gay. Nothing proves this to be true and being gay is not a new human trait.
[/quote]
Neither is pedophilia so I guess in your view, we should approve of that lifestyle because it’s also not a new human trait.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hmm, when you state facts about the obese is that an act of hate?
No not at all. In fact, some would say that you are helping them by pointing out the very negative consequences of being obese.
[/quote]
Great comparison ZEB. For some reason we’re being denounced as “haters” and are being warned about judging (because that’s for God alone), but I can honestly say that I don’t harbor any hatred for homosexuals. Yes, I disapprove of their lifestyle, but how can someone judge my heart and infer from my beliefs that I also hate them? It just baffles me how hypocritical some people can be.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Nobody is trying to silence anybody, well, except for the concept of this thread which is that the movie needs to be “silenced”.
[/quote]
Even though your post is a damn lie, it’s exactly what you’d have people believe. Be a man and fess up to this comment. Where did I say anywhere in this 16-page thread that the film needed to be “silenced”?
I’d love to call you a jackass right about now but I’ll practice some restraint.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Hmm, when you state facts about the obese is that an act of hate?
No not at all. In fact, some would say that you are helping them by pointing out the very negative consequences of being obese.
Great comparison ZEB. For some reason we’re being denounced as “haters” and are being warned about judging (because that’s for God alone), but I can honestly say that I don’t harbor any hatred for homosexuals. Yes, I disapprove of their lifestyle, but how can someone judge my heart and infer from my beliefs that I also hate them? It just baffles me how hypocritical some people can be.[/quote]
It’s simply part of the liberal lie…and being politically correct.
Unless you endorse it, or remain silent you are automatically a hater.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Hmm, when you state facts about the obese is that an act of hate?
No not at all. In fact, some would say that you are helping them by pointing out the very negative consequences of being obese.
Great comparison ZEB. For some reason we’re being denounced as “haters” and are being warned about judging (because that’s for God alone), but I can honestly say that I don’t harbor any hatred for homosexuals. Yes, I disapprove of their lifestyle, but how can someone judge my heart and infer from my beliefs that I also hate them? It just baffles me how hypocritical some people can be.
It’s simply part of the liberal lie…and being politically correct.
Unless you endorse it, or remain silent you are automatically a hater.
[quote]Even though your post is a damn lie, it’s exactly what you’d have people believe. Be a man and fess up to this comment. Where did I say anywhere in this 16-page thread that the film needed to be “silenced”?
I’d love to call you a jackass right about now but I’ll practice some restraint. [/quote]
Stellar,
You have to be consistent in this regard.
If you and Zeb are being silenced, then you are in fact silencing the movie by speaking against it as you are.
However, neither you or Zeb are truly being silenced, just as the movie is not being silenced.
Perhaps in all the long drawn out verbiage between Zeb and myself, that point got lost?
The movie is free speech. Your hatred of it is free speech. Criticism of your hatred is free speech. Criticism of such criticism is free speech.
Get over it.
P.S. Don’t hesitate to call me a jackass, I’ve been called worse.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Even though your post is a damn lie, it’s exactly what you’d have people believe. Be a man and fess up to this comment. Where did I say anywhere in this 16-page thread that the film needed to be “silenced”?
I’d love to call you a jackass right about now but I’ll practice some restraint.
Stellar,
You have to be consistent in this regard.
If you and Zeb are being silenced, then you are in fact silencing the movie by speaking against it as you are.
However, neither you or Zeb are truly being silenced, just as the movie is not being silenced.
Perhaps in all the long drawn out verbiage between Zeb and myself, that point got lost?
The movie is free speech. Your hatred of it is free speech. Criticism of your hatred is free speech. Criticism of such criticism is free speech.
Get over it.
P.S. Don’t hesitate to call me a jackass, I’ve been called worse.[/quote]
It’s funny how you start out just liking some of the guys on here…
and then after reading a few of their posts, you start loving them…
and, then after a while, you just start thinking “Damn, why don’t we get some horses and some cattle and some open plains, and you know, just f**k each other silly…”
No. Ok, you DON’T actually EVER start thinking that last one.
Unless you’ve seen brokeback mountain.
And by then, you’re probably just a drooling gay-zombie-for-jesus-and-beef.
So for god’s sakes! Don’t watch brokeback mountain! One second you’ll be ordering a subscription to playboy, the next second you’ll find yourself chugging cock.
Zeb, you are very good at making insinuations and being insulting without using derogatory terms.[/quote]
Please show me where I have done this on the thread. I have only pointed out various repercussions of a dangerous behavior.
Please show me specifically where I have done more than this.
You might want to rethink that statement. There are many University students who would disagree with you regarding certain subject that they are not allowed to speak of certain things. In other words tell the truth regarding a topic. Therefore, they are silenced.
Homosexuality has become such a topic in this country.
Really? It seems that a majority of those with same sex attraction did in fact change after therapy.
[quote]It’s about spreading the truth and giving them the facts. Then let them make their own decisions based upon the evidence.
Yes, but you also go a little bit further than that, and I think you know it.[/quote]
Please show me where I have gone further than this.
We have some multiple problems going on that make it inherently unsafe. (hey we have already done this huh?):
You keep claiming that IF they take precautions anal sex is fine. However, it seems according to statistics that they DON’T take precautions. Hence, everything is not fine.
Promiscuity often rules the homosexual lifestyle (not with everyone). Hence, homosexuals are often changing partners more often than someone at a country square dance (did you like that one?)
And finally (for the purposes of our discussion at least) placing anything inside the rectum is dangerous! And yes it’s dangerous no matter if the rectum is male or female.
“anatomy. At the lower end of the bowel, there are two distinct circular bands of muscles, sphincters, one is located about an 1 ?” above the other. These clamp down tight to prevent the passage of feces or gas. The mucous membrane lining of the rectum is not as heavy as the lining of the vagina, so it can tear quite easily and it does not heal as quickly as the vagina. Because feces, loaded with bacteria, are passing by, any tear is vulnerable to infection.
The vigorous thrusting that may occur during anal intercourse can tear the mucous membrane. This can develop into an anal abscess that can become infected - more about that in a moment. Also, if your partner has any of the sexually transmitted infections (STI’s), then you could get infected through the tear. So we are talking about gonorrhea (treatable); venereal warts (treatable if external, difficult if up in the rectum); syphilis (treatable); herpes (treatment, no cure)"
You see vroom the rectum is just not set up for sex. It’s set up for evacuation of waste material.
Now you wouldn’t try to pump gas in your automobiles exhaust pipe would you?
No of course not.
I agree, that’s why I want to thank you for keeping this debate going so that I am able to educate more people on the risks of the homosexual lifestyle.
We are a good team vroom. Think Hannity and Combs. Of course you have to be Combs…so that’s not really good for you.
But hey you are still helping me.
Of course you are a liberal. But…you are a very caring liberal. How’s that?
As to homosexuals acting responsibly here are my thoughts:
Since Rock Hudsons death in October of 1985 there has been information circulating about AIDS and the risks of the homosexual act.
Fast forward 20 years and according to the CDC two thirds of all new AIDS cases are gay men!
Tell me what have they learned?
I am anti death and pain. It’s literally heartbreaking to see people destroy their lives in this way. NOt much different than seeing someone throw their life away because they are addicted to alcohol. The same feeling I get when I see a close relative throw their life away because of being obese.
I want to help and again I thank you for keeping this debate alive.
I will never miss an opportunity to spread the truth.
No I can’t. And don’t call me Shirley!
(I had to sorry)
Anti gay? Hmm…not so much “anti gay” as I am “anti-pain and death.”
Am I “anti obese people” if I try to stop my Aunt from killing herself with food?
No I don’t think so.
In fact I am the only one trying to help her and I have actually been commended by other family members for it.
So in a way I think I love gay people more than most. Certainly more than anyone who calls me names for attempting to disseminate accurate information regarding the dangers of the homosexual act and the lifestyle.
“Love” is not always allowing someone the freedom to do what they want. Especially if what they want to do is kill themselves.
[quote]Zeb, some gay people die younger, some have more anxiety (though we don’t know what the reasons are for that…) and some have more depression (though we don’t know the reason for that either…) and that certainly those unlucky enough to catch certain diseases will have plenty of health problems.
[/quote]
They have a much higher rate of practically all disease than heterosexuals.
Want to blame that on lack of respect?
Ha ha.
[quote]Again, your view that they are doing something wrong, as opposed to the risks that other people take, such as smoking a cigarette, is strange.
[/quote]
Well vroom we have come full circle on this. We are now officially repeating ourselves.
You don’t want to make a moral determination based upon results, I do.
If a program is not working I stop doing it. Hence, (I like that word please try to use it in your response at least once) it’s wrong!
If someone is smoking…yea it’s bad behavior and is killing them. Hence, it’s wrong!
If someone weighs 340lbs and eats 12 doughnuts for breakfast each day, they are killing themselves. Hence, it’s wrong!
The fact that two thirds of all new AIDS cases are men who have sex with other men I would say that that is unhealthy. Hence, IT’S WRONG!
Sorry ole’ pal somethings are wrong. The real world is not even remotely related to “relativism.”
[quote]There are many ways that people choose to increase their risks. However, we don’t tell these people thay they are inherently wrong or bad for making such a choice.
[/quote]
Yes I just did see above. I can tell when a behavior is bad because it because it kills them early. And it also causes pain and bad health physically and emotionally while they are alive.
Don’t mistake my keen eye for seeing what is right and wrong (joking on the keen eye bit) for allowing them to do it.
As I have said it’s America and God Bless our freedoms!
But…that won’t stop me from pointing and blowing the whistle on what is sooooo very obviously something that is really really really dangerous.
(It really is
Is not annoying peoplethe most important thing? I think not.
Rather, the most important thing is to do the rightthing!
I annoy my Aunt everyday. She loves me for it. But she used to hate me for it.
Odd that “love” thing.
Does that give them the right to call me hateful names?
Is there a right and wrong regarding their behavior?
Interesting huh?
[quote]Nobody would get riled at all if you discussed homosexuality without trying to act as the moral judge of other peoples decisions.
[/quote]
I know it’s sooo very politically correct not to judge anything or anyone. I think that’s at the heart of political correctness.
That’s one reason I spit on politcal correctness (well not literally but you get the idea).
In fact, I Zeb do hereby judge political correctness to be …ready for this?
WRONG!
I like freedom vroom. If I didn’t I’d move to Canada. … Okay sorry, but I had to do just one.
I am doing my part trust me (knowing wink)
Well, if there is one thing I am it is consistent.
And I think the fact that you are questioning me right now puts you in the position of “moral police man.”
Think about it.
You are allowed to rant about me, yet I am not allowed to rant (with facts) about a dangers act?
How dare you vroom!
This is a necessary risk that I am taking on this message board. I know that some don’t like it and becasue they don’t like it they will think less of me.
I don’t care…I’m going to risk it…
Now leave me alone to this risky forum lifestyle I have chosen.
See how crazy your argument is?
Yea…it is.
[quote]Anybody who takes a stand gets lots of PM’s Zeb. You aren’t the only person who does…
[/quote]
Yes, but that does not negate the fact that I got the PM’s. Logic ole’ buddy.
It means that people are reading what I have to say and thus I might be changing some hearts and minds.
Liberal logic demands that we never discuss the negatives of the homosexual act or the lifestyle. As it is not politically correct. And if you dare try to discuss the reality you are called a “homophobe.”
[quote]If you really want to make sure you are spouting the truth, then you have to be fair and honest and reflective of all sides of the issue. A partial truth is not the truth, and you full well know that.
[/quote]
I agree!
I want you to begin a discussion on all of the positive reasons for being obese.
You see pal… somethings are just not good!
[quote]It isn’t that I don’t LIKE your calling this behavior wrong, it is that your logic is not consistent. You have no real rationale for claiming it is wrong, so we are left to surmise this is simply your personal belief. Generally, most people have learned that unsupported prejudicial viewpoints are in fact bad.
[/quote]
Oh but I do have reasons.
Earlier death rate.
Higher anxiety rate.
Higher rate of depression.
Higher rate of most disease.
Far higher rate of AIDS.
Far higher rate of all STD’s.
And everyone of them can be supported by facts!
[quote]If you wish to make statements that make you sound homophobic …
[/quote]
Ahh…you finally got around to the name calling!
You did it man…LOL
I thank you for confirming to me and all of the readers of T-Nation that you are (without question) a politically correct liberal!
Good job vroom.
Sure they do. They attack facts with liberal logic. That is, they name call as they have no other recourse…they are WRONGand have no facts to substantiate their false conclusion. Hence, they name call just as you did above.
It’s a politically correct world and nothing is ever really wrong. It’s all relative la la la la…skips away(starry eyes).
[quote]vroom wrote:
Even though your post is a damn lie, it’s exactly what you’d have people believe. Be a man and fess up to this comment. Where did I say anywhere in this 16-page thread that the film needed to be “silenced”?
I’d love to call you a jackass right about now but I’ll practice some restraint.
Stellar,
You have to be consistent in this regard.
If you and Zeb are being silenced, then you are in fact silencing the movie by speaking against it as you are.
However, neither you or Zeb are truly being silenced, just as the movie is not being silenced.
Perhaps in all the long drawn out verbiage between Zeb and myself, that point got lost?
The movie is free speech. Your hatred of it is free speech. Criticism of your hatred is free speech. Criticism of such criticism is free speech.
Get over it.
P.S. Don’t hesitate to call me a jackass, I’ve been called worse.[/quote]
And criticism of the homosexual act and lifestyle is free speech. But the liberals just don’t like that sort of free speech.
Why? Because it’s not politically correct speech.
How many movies has Hollywood made looking at homosexuality from the other side?
People don’t choose to be gay, nor can they change their orientation. In fact, attempting to do so can be harmful. Every major medical and mental health organization (American Medical Association, American Pediatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, etc.) has done the research over the past two decades and found this to be the case. I can provide quotes if anyone wants them.
I tried for 30 years to change who I am, and was unable to do so. I was married, because that was what my church said would make me happy. I had children. I never cheated on my wife, but after 10 years of marriage we finally decided to divorce, after realizing that things weren’t going to change.
A lot of pain could have been avoided, had we not listened to the fundamentalist rhetoric about homosexuality. Choosing to live with integrity has brought me happiness and peace.
My hope was that Brokeback Mountain would open eyes. I knew that religious fundamentalists wouldn’t be educated, but I believed there were genuinely open minded people that could learn from the message of the movie. Reading through this thread, and talking with others that have seen the movie, I am happy to see this is the case.
It’s good to know there are some brothers and sisters in iron out there, who can look beyond their own reality and accept others who are different from themselves.
There is a difference between a work of art, or entertainment, and something claiming to be a documentary or the truth. This movie claims nothing except that it might offer some entertainment.
If the movie misrepresents itself, then I think you’d have something to talk about.[/quote]
Sure it’s a movie, nothing more. But then you also realize that a media piece like any movie can still have an intended message. All I’m saying is that it does have an agenda or an intended message designed to push a particular point of view.
[quote]horny yoda wrote:
stellar_horizon wrote:
Be aware of the propaganda in Brokeback Mountain
Stellar, that IS what marriage is like, that IS what women have become like, and that IS all pretty much true.
[/quote]
And is that what gay sex is like? You really believe the contrast between gay sex and a hetero family was portrayed in a realistic manner on all sides?
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
And is that what gay sex is like? You really believe the contrast between gay sex and a hetero family was portrayed in a realistic manner on all sides?
[/quote]
Yes, the contrast rang true to my personal experience. I thought the movie did a great job portraying the pain and conflict that can occur when people enter into mixed orientation marriages.
[quote]forlife wrote:
People don’t choose to be gay, nor can they change their orientation. In fact, attempting to do so can be harmful. Every major medical and mental health organization (American Medical Association, American Pediatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, etc.) has done the research over the past two decades and found this to be the case. I can provide quotes if anyone wants them.
I tried for 30 years to change who I am, and was unable to do so. I was married, because that was what my church said would make me happy. I had children. I never cheated on my wife, but after 10 years of marriage we finally decided to divorce, after realizing that things weren’t going to change.
A lot of pain could have been avoided, had we not listened to the fundamentalist rhetoric about homosexuality. Choosing to live with integrity has brought me happiness and peace.
My hope was that Brokeback Mountain would open eyes. I knew that religious fundamentalists wouldn’t be educated, but I believed there were genuinely open minded people that could learn from the message of the movie. Reading through this thread, and talking with others that have seen the movie, I am happy to see this is the case.
It’s good to know there are some brothers and sisters in iron out there, who can look beyond their own reality and accept others who are different from themselves. [/quote]
I am waiting to see if any one will challenge you with accusations of relating to pedophilia and lack of morals. Why has Lorisco avoided this post?
[quote]You might want to rethink that statement. There are many University students who would disagree with you regarding certain subject that they are not allowed to speak of certain things. In other words tell the truth regarding a topic. Therefore, they are silenced.
[/quote]
A university has a responsibility to maintain a safe and orderly environment that allows learning. I refuse to be drawn into the very tricky morass of whether or not this is right or if they go overboard. This is not what we are discussing.
[quote]Really? It seems that a majority of those with same sex attraction did in fact change after therapy.
Zeb, I have never argued that people can’t force themselves to act within the confines of what society expects. Obviously, those seeking treatment or help in doing so are going to be those that have a better chance to do so.
However, please be somewhat fair and realize that some people cannot simply make a choice. Your own quote of statistics shows this. Some people seeking such help due to the pressures put on them, simply find that it is not a choice they can make.
I’m not asking you to change your mind or think what I think. I’m asking you to be fair in this issue. Whether or not you like something you can still be fair in your actions and discussions of it.
[quote]1. You keep claiming that IF they take precautions anal sex is fine. However, it seems according to statistics that they DON’T take precautions. Hence, everything is not fine.
Promiscuity often rules the homosexual lifestyle (not with everyone). Hence, homosexuals are often changing partners more often than someone at a country square dance (did you like that one?)
And finally (for the purposes of our discussion at least) placing anything inside the rectum is dangerous! And yes it’s dangerous no matter if the rectum is male or female.
[/quote]
This is very important. According to statistics SOME people are not choosing to take appropriate precautions.
Also, according to statistics, SOME people are living a promiscous lifestyle.
Finally, your third point is true, but the health risks concerning the transmission of STD’s is still present whether using the vagina, the anus, or the mouth.
The only real difference in your truth is that the vigorous action required to penetrate the anus may cause tears, which then offer an opportunity for infection.
The fact that people choose not to head the issues and take action to protect themselves is what is wrong. Perhaps being promiscous could be declared as wrong. However, the mere fact that someone is gay or has gay sex is not wrong.
It is only wrong when it is done in such a way as to increase risks in a reckless manner.
I do not think you are being fair at all when you suggest it is outright wrong, just because there are people our there who are acting irresponsible. Once again, it shows you judging all gay people by the actions of some gay people.
What is the word for that again?
[quote]That’s one reason I spit on politcal correctness (well not literally but you get the idea).
If you wish to make statements that make you sound homophobic …
Ahh…you finally got around to the name calling!
You did it man…LOL
I thank you for confirming to me and all of the readers of T-Nation that you are (without question) a politically correct liberal![/quote]
This is a little game you have played many times. First you despise political correctness, but then you get upset if people say things you don’t like. Political correctness is precisely about how people say things.
Which is it? Do you spit on political correctness or do you embrace it with respect to situations where you could find something offensive to you?
Also, in the above, it is very clear that I went out of my way to make sure I did NOT call you homophobic. I was pointing out that statements you make are easy for people to interpret as homophobic statements – hence, they do so.
It is not because they are politically correct. It is because you appear driven by an agenda beyond trying to “help” as you put it. Of course, trying to “help” is certainly a nice little smokescreen to use for your statements. I can certainly see why you use it.
However, your actions do not quite jibe with your words. People can see this. They can detect it. Hence, they make judgments about what that might mean. Funny how the world works isn’t it? Don’t blame me or suggest I am calling you names when I point out the how’s and why’s of this process.
After all, can we not discuss the truth, as you put it? Are you asking me to be politically correct and avoid discussion of this truth? Make up your mind and try to be consistent for a change.
Zeb, I am talking about how you are one sided in your arguments and how you talk about certain portions of the truth and how you stereotype all gay people with the actions of some gay people. These things are also wrong.
I am not making other claims that require substantiation. And, as I pointed out above, I was very careful to make sure I wasn’t calling you names at all. You are the one who was saying other people were calling you names, and I was discussing why I thought that might be the case.
See, your claims of fairness are not supported by your words/actions in these issues. By the way, that would appear to be wrong!
