Brokeback Propaganda

[quote]digiboy wrote:

Come back with listed statistics, ensure that no political or religious wishlists are pointedly served by those statistics[/quote]

That’s funny I didn’t know the CDC was overly political. They claim that Two thirds of all new (reported) AIDS cases come from homosexual men.

Those dirty liars!

Ha ha

Please excuse me, but that is the dumbest comment that I have read on this thread (and I have debated vroom and prof x keep that in mind).

Sooo…if something can be changed then it is not dangerous? ha ha…please keep posting…

[quote]Gay identity is still emerging from centuries of opposition. If too many gay men have yet to foster what you or I would term ‘self respect’ that might be a reaction to previous suppression of ‘gay culture’ or, more likely individual turmoils. No emerging identity gels to working perfection instantly upon coming out into the open.
[/quote]

I want to apologize for calling your previous comment the dumbest comment that I have seen on this thread.

The above paragraph is the dumbest thing that I have seen on this thread!

The gay lifestyle is what causes depression and anxiety. I would post more studies but I know you liberals don’t appreciate or acknowledge studies of any kind when they show one of your sacred cows to be something you don’t want it to be.

The gay act and lifestyle are dangersous both physically and emotionally. You can believe that it has to do with “suppression” or any other thing that makes you feel good.

If someone put forth a study that demonstrated that hitting your hand with a hammer causes pain you liberals would claim that it was not really the hammer causing the problem. And that if the guy wore protective gear on his hand the pain would not be so bad.

But what happens if the part of the population who liked hitting their own hand with a hammer would not listen and continued to strike said hand?

I know what would happen!

Hollywood would celebrate hand hammer striking with a film!

(Ha ha suppression of gay culture ha ha…)

[quote]I made no moral judgement regarding “wrongness.” I simply put forth the premise (and backed it up with supporting data) that the homosexual act and lifestyle are dangerous.

Do you have any data that claims otherwise? If so please post it. [/quote]

Zeb, I have conceded this point but you keep asking for this information. Why don’t you try to stop avoiding issues yourself.

Earlier in the coversation I claimed that there was nothing inherently WRONG with being gay. The concepts of WRONG and RISKY are very different. You went to great lengths to class smoking and other behaviors as WRONG.

If all you are now saying is that you think some behaviors are risky, then we really don’t have anything to argue about. We agree on that.

However, you still have managed to avoid providing a definition of the “gay lifestyle” as used to generate the statistics you love to quote. Was the “gay lifestyle” used defined as one involving plenty of sex with multiple partners?

If so, your stats are not applicable to being gay, but towards being gay and leading some sort of excessive lifestyle, which are of course two different things. Maybe the risk is more in the lifestyle than simply being gay?

[quote]Never said it was wrong vroom. But…if those dangers are spread to the greater society then we might have another discussion.

You can sky dive for fun if you want to. But you shouldn’t make others do it.[/quote]

Wow, two strange concepts here. First, again, our discussion on this topic started when you took exception to my statement that there was nothing inherently WRONG with someone being gay.

You’ve been arguing against that stance since day one. Again, if you are now adjusting your viewpoint to suggest that there is nothing wrong with it, except that it is risky, we can be done. However, it would still be good to clarify the “gay lifestyle” definition used.

Again, I have told you repeatedly now that I am certainly happy to concede that certain sexual acts entail higher levels of risk than others.

However, what does “making others do it” have to do with anything? This is crazy. Where in our discussion is there any scope to imagine that gay people are “making others do it”? What are you attributing towards gay people with such a statement?

It doesn’t sound good…

Oh, by the way, I’ve also asked you to define the politically correct stance. I’m not sticking to any line.

I don’t believe there is anything inherently wrong with being gay. That isn’t political correctness, it is what I believe.

I also do believe that there are certain risk factors involved in aspects of being gay.

However, I’ve explained why I feel that people should be free to choose which risk factors in life they expose themselves to.

Where does anything I am saying equate to being politically correct. I am not motivated by political correctness, but a desire to realize the apparent truth of a situation and to describe it accurately.

I’m sorry if your viewpoints or the way you express your feelings implies that you are acting in a bigoted or prejudicial way to some people.

Is what you refer to as political correctness the fact that people generally don’t like to see such implications?

[quote]vroom wrote:
I made no moral judgement regarding “wrongness.” I simply put forth the premise (and backed it up with supporting data) that the homosexual act and lifestyle are dangerous.

Do you have any data that claims otherwise? If so please post it.

Zeb, I have conceded this point[/quote]

Yes, you have conceded the main point. And as soon as it hits me I will stop asking you to produce an opposing view.

Sorry.

Well vroom I think that here is where we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I still live in a world where there is right and wrong. And…in reality most people do.

When you do something that can kill you…um I think that’s wrong.

When you do something that can kill you and also kill others who might be unaware…well that’s wrong too.

That is a very good question vroom!

Here is your answer:

Risky Sexual Behavior on the Rise Among Homosexuals. Despite two decades of intensive efforts to educate homosexuals against the dangers of acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) and other stds, the incidence of unsafe sexual practices that often result in various diseases is on the rise.

Note: The Center for Disease Control is a government institution. Not some right wing gay hating organization. They study health trends and statistics world wide in order to attempt to foresee the various disease’s that might be either already prevalent, or could become prevalent in the United States.

I posted only a few statistics here as there is no reason to overwhelm you with facts as I have in earlier posts. Simply review these few facts and give me an honest comment on them:

"According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), from 1994 to 1997 the proportion of homosexuals reporting having had anal sex increased from 57.6 percent to 61.2 percent, while the percentage of those reporting “always” using condoms declined from 69.6 percent to 60 percent.

Homosexuals Failing to Disclose Their HIV Status to Sex Partners
A study presented July 13, 2000 at the XIII International aids Conference in Durban, South Africa disclosed that a significant number of homosexual and bisexual men with hiv “continue to engage in unprotected sex with people who have no idea they could be contracting HIV.”[4] Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco found that thirty-six percent of homosexuals engaging in unprotected oral, anal, failed to disclose that they were HIV positive to casual sex partners.

A CDC report revealed that, in 1997, 45 percent of homosexuals reporting having had unprotected anal intercourse during the previous six months did not know the HIV serostatus of all their sex partners. Even more alarming, among those who reported having had unprotected anal intercourse and multiple partners, 68 percent did not know the HIV serostatus of their partners."

The above means that people just like your friends are engaging in risky, potentially death defying behavior! They are not containing the potential for AIDS and STD’s, they are spreading it!

This is in fact killing them at a higher rate than the national average. How can anyone possibly consider this a good thing? And if it is not considered a good thing then why would anyone want to promote such a thing if not merely for the sake of social liberalism and political correctness?

"In The Male Couple, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison reported that in a study of a hundred-fifty-six males in homosexual relationships lasting from one to thirty-seven years,

Only seven couples have a totally exclusive sexual relationship, and these men all have been together for less than five years.

Stated another way, all couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships.

In Male and Female Homosexuality, M. Saghir and E. Robins found that the average male homosexual live-in relationship lasts between two and three years.

Unhealthy Aspects of “Monogamous” Homosexual Relationships. Even those homosexual relationships that are loosely termed “monogamous” do not necessarily result in healthier behavior.

The journal AIDS reported that men involved in relationships engaged in anal intercourse and oral-anal intercourse with greater frequency than those without a steady partner.[15] Anal intercourse has been linked to a host of bacterial and parasitical sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS.

The exclusivity of the relationship did not diminish the incidence of unhealthy sexual acts, which are commonplace among homosexuals. An English study published in the same issue of the journal AIDS concurred, finding that most “unsafe” sex acts among homosexuals occur in steady relationships."

The statistics reflect a serious problem which transcends age as well:

“In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al., found that only 2.7 percent claimed to have had sex with one partner only. The most common response, given by 21.6 percent of the respondents, was of having a hundred-one to five hundred lifetime sex partners.”

Instead of pacifying the homosexual community why not actually try to help them?

Is runaway social liberalism and political correctness more important than the health and well being of this group of people?

As I have said before “being gay is not dangerous in the least.”

However, as soon as you act on that feeling then it becomes dangerous.

You read the stats above and I think you know by now that male on male sex is in fact dangerous.

Biology 101: “Okay class what is the rectum used for?”

End of lesson.

[quote]Again, I have told you repeatedly now that I am certainly happy to concede that certain sexual acts entail higher levels of risk than others.

However, what does “making others do it” have to do with anything? This is crazy. Where in our discussion is there any scope to imagine that gay people are “making others do it”? What are you attributing towards gay people with such a statement?

It doesn’t sound good…[/quote]

vroom, forgive me for not being more clear.

What I meant was that someone may not be aware that they are contracting the AIDS virus from another person. Hence, others are being exposed and unaware.

Also, there is that pesky little fact that two thirds of all new AIDS cases are male homosexuals.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

[quote]vroom wrote:

I don’t believe there is anything inherently wrong with being gay. That isn’t political correctness, it is what I believe.[/quote]

I think that most on the left there is a tendency to embrace relativism.

No, as long as you don’t participate in a gay sex act there is zero danger. Just “being” gay is not having male on male sex.

Yes, and I agree with you. We live in a free country and I applaud these freedoms.

If taking a stance and trying to help folks attracts those types of names then I don’t mind.

I have an obese aunt who I am always trying to help. I have never been called names for it yet…but in time (when the politcally correct get a hold of it) I’m sure I will.

it’s all about helping people with me.

[/quote]

Back on topic:

I have less of a problem with the movie as a piece of propaganda than I do in Hollywood celebrating anything that is politically correct.

I don’t think then specific topic matters as much as if it is viewed by Hollywood as politically correct.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Well vroom I think that here is where we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I still live in a world where there is right and wrong. And…in reality most people do.

When you do something that can kill you…um I think that’s wrong.

When you do something that can kill you and also kill others who might be unaware…well that’s wrong too.
[/quote]

Okay, there are several issues here though, and I think you will agree. For example, driving a car is honestly a risky endeavor. People die every day when they simply could have chosen not to drive a car.

Often, people will kill other people with vehicles! Those people can even be unaware, perhaps crossing the street at an intersection when somebody runs a red light.

However, this does not mean that driving is “wrong” or that all drivers are doing something immoral. Thost that drive wrecklessly are the ones doing something wrong.

It is similar with gay people. Not all gay people are running around sticking their dick in unsuspecting people. I hate to say it this way, but really, your viewpoint is as if the worst behavior by any one person can be used to paint the actions of all.

Did you hear about the woman who ran over her husband and killed him? Perhaps no women should be allowed to drive cars ever again! Sorry, but this seems to be the type of logic you are espousing, and it doesn’t make much sense to me.

So, a point of agreement, knowingly endangering other people by not taking appropriate precautions is a bad thing. Now, we need to get both gay and straight people to pay more attention to this concept.

[quote]That is a very good question vroom!

Here is your answer:

.
.
.
[/quote]

Zeb, that was not an answer. It was a bunch of studies that DID NOT define what country the studies were done in or what definitions were used when doing the studies.

Honestly, the definitions used to set up the study are very important. If 90% of new AIDS cases were in Africa, for example, where ignorance is rampant and education is sparse, then it may not even be applicable to life over here at all.

Now, I honestly don’t know about how the studies were constructed, or the comparative statistics. This is why I am asking for the definitions used, to see whether the studies support your viewpoint as well as you suggest they do.

This is not a liberal viewpoint or anything silly. This is just being cautious in terms of accepting raw statistics without understanding what they represent. If they came from the family center, referring to CDC studies, but did not give you the definitions, then there is a good likelihood that they are trying to mislead with them.

Any reputable study must contain definitions and descriptions of the populations studied. If the information is NOT present, you must be suspicious of what the results are really saying.

So far, I haven’t seen you point out what definitions were used in any of these studies or show which populations were used when coming up with such statistics. While this doesn’t mean they have to be misleading, it is very suspicious.

Surely you can see that too?

If you find the source and definition information then I will in fact be able to admit various conclusions based on them. I am not trying to avoid what you like to point out are facts, but I’d like to make sure I know what those facts are before I do so.

Who is promoting anything? I’m not telling people they should go out and be gay. If they are already gay, then they should act wisely and attempt to minimize risks that they may encounter. The fact that some people are not wise, whether gay or straight is a completely separate issue.

Also, how many straight people do you think have had only one partner in their life? How many straight people do you think demand a blood test every time they meet a new partner? How many straight people actually abstain from sex their entire lives? If gay people should do so, then so should straight people. Risk is risk.

[quote]Instead of pacifying the homosexual community why not actually try to help them?

Is runaway social liberalism and political correctness more important than the health and well being of this group of people? [/quote]

I don’t believe helping them involves morally condemning them for the acts of some members of their community. Now, education is something that might be appropriate.

I don’t think this is something that was done in the past because society thoroughly rejected gay people such that not much by way of publicly visible effort would be conducted.

Again, as far as I am aware, I am not in any way motivated by political correctness. Social liberalism however would stand for social freedom, would it not? Again, as you have agreed yourself, if something isn’t illegal, then people should be free to do it.

You sound like a social liberal yourself don’t you? Or am I interpreting the phrase incorrectly? Also, I am not trying to pacify anybody. Are you? You seem to be ascribing motivations or beliefs to me that I don’t have. What for?

Okay, if you aren’t claiming that they are “making others do it” then there is no issue. Sometimes we type things we don’t actually mean.

However, with respect to your statement, I would argue again that unprotected sex between any individuals can be risky. This is true for both straight and gay people. Making this a big issue for gay people and ignoring it for straight people seems a bit strange really.

P.S. I think we are having a civil and respectful discussion for a change – even if it may be a bit of a hijack.

Zeb,

Wanting to help people is indeed an admirable thing. If that is your motivation, then I can certainly applaud that.

Be careful though, you may start to sound like a bleeding heart liberal if you admit to such things.

Anyway, honestly, if you are trying to help people, I do suspect that the people you are trying to help would be more inclined to listen to you if they didn’t end up feeling insulted by your comments.

If you want to help, try to find a way to get the message across without offending the intended recipients. Then I think you will have more of a chance at helping people. Seriously.

Think about it. How can you help if the people you want to help aren’t able to get the message you actually intend?

Anyway, though you may not agree, I think that both conservatives and liberals are trying to help and trying to do the right things.

Zeb, I seriously wonder if you’ve been reading anyone else’s quotes with any degree of patience (or indeed a typical adult’s reading ability). Homosexual behaviour, historically speaking, HAS been suppressed. Only an idiot or zealot could not acknowledge that. And even in 2006, the combination of peer pressure, fear of parental disapproval and authentic and necessary self-questioning leads many gay teens and adults to ‘bottle up’ their desires to the point where promiscuity may for some be a misguided method of ‘flying the cage’. Others might just be plain horny. But the lesson of history, from the Leopold and Loeb case to abuse by Catholic priests proves that repressed desire can sometimes be more dangerous than any open and shameless expression of it.

And given the movie at the centre of this thread, why are you viewing ‘homosexual acts’ only in the context of the 21st century US? The movie is set in the 1960s (as you’d know if you saw it), hence it’s disregard of the AIDS issue and the desperate attempts of its lead characters to settle down to normal family life, with awkward consequences. THIS is why, for the two said cowboys, the family home IS a depressing place and their secretive gay sex IS a release. BECAUSE LIVING HOMOSEXUALLY IS WHAT THEY WANT, whereas life with a wife is not. That clearly has less to do with a ‘liberal agenda’ than you could comfortably accept (incidentally there are plenty of American movies, from ‘Philadelphia’ to ‘The Deep End’ which don’t portray ‘the gay lifestyle’ as the happiest state of existence. But given that you above all others here refuse to allow ‘the facts’ to interfere with your train of thought, I wouldn’t expect you to confront that). I do, however, think that Hollywood of late has rewarded ‘worthy’ films and actors starring in them, from ‘Shine’ with its tale of mental disarray following life with a bad dad, through the weepy soap-opera sermonizing of ‘Philadelphia’, to Nicole Kidman’s portrayal of the nervy bisexual feminist Virginia Woolf in ‘The Hours’ (Julianne Moore was way better).

Plus, I don’t think you understood a single word of what I was referring to when I wrote about the collective identity of 21st-century Western gay men and how that identity can alter over time.

If you knew anything about the Stonewall rebellion which lead to the decriminilisation of homosexuality on your shores, you would know that certain gay mens’ reaction was to live openly and recreate something of the stability of their childhood home lives with a longterm partner, whereas others dived into an orgy of promiscuity, leading to the notorious ‘bath-house culture’ within cities such as New York and San Francisco, from which AIDS arose. Gay culture (and it still only thrives in the West) may still be too shallow and fixated on the individual self to send positive and effective messages on how to prevent the occurence of disease and raise the larger public’s respect for gay men, but for as long as the word ‘inherent’ is used you are implying that the situation is not only beyond change but the same everywhere on this planet. Around the world, from Buddhist Japan to Christian Nigeria to Muslim Iraq, homosexual men are perceived differently, regard their place in the world differently and behave differently. Don’t pretend to see the entire and absolute truth. If, however, this is all that your mind is capable of (and you’re so righteous in your rage I get the feeling you have), I shall halt my argument after this post and simply shake my head in pity. You poor dumb thing.

The purported fact of many Academy reviewers refusing to watch ‘Brokeback Mountain’ on the simple account of it’s subject matter (and how can it be anything else if they haven’t familiarised themselves with the movie?) goes to show that in some quarters gay themes ARE still suppressed. Granted, tolerance doesn’t have to equate to society’s unquestioning approval, but stop trying to represent yourself as a rational man trying to submit informed opinions when you’re just behaving like an angry kindergartener trying to wrestle a lollipop from another’s hands.

And now, yes, the most idiotically presumptuous post I’VE read on this thread. “The gay lifestyle causes anxiety and depression”. What a childish assumption! Have you asked any gay acquaintances to cast their minds back to those years before they had any sexual contact and tell you whether they were more depressed and anxious then or now? Have you asked them (should they have depression) whether increased tolerance among family members, neighbours or work colleagues would help to ease that depression? And most importantly, have you differentiated between those gay men who lead solitary, promiscuous lifestyles and those who function in longterm relationships? Of course you haven’t. You probably don’t even have the capacity to pose an insightful question in the first place.

Vroom asked you again and again to define this ‘gay lifestyle’ as you reference it because gay men can vary wildly in their degree of sexual activity and length of commitment to a romantic partner. Some live with their mothers all their lives and get no further than ogling a movie screen. Which one is the ‘gay lifestyle’? And why does that lifestyle blanket all homosexual experience any more than marriage ‘til death do us part’ represent all hetero relations under the sun? Be clear. You’re conversing with adults now, even if you can’t keep up.

And furthermore, the CDC statistics are just one of many. You keep hazily referring to ‘quality stats’ and ‘credible studies’ but you haven’t listed all of your sources. You’re expecting us all to just shut up in agreement with points which you haven’t properly qualified. I wouldn’t fall for that whatever the issue. And AGAIN AND AGAIN, you haven’t stated exactly why a gay man who exercises caution in his sex life is effectively doomed to the same grisly end as one who doesn’t.

Do I accept that life as a gay man can present greater POTENTIAL for danger? Yes! If you had read my reference to the danger of rupturing internal tissue and thus the greater allowance for infected semen to contact the bloodstream that anal sex involves, you wouldn’t keep having to post these juvenile missives and I wouldn’t have to keep correcting you like a vexed schoolteacher. But that danger is only there for a man who lacks the caution and self restraint to focus on one (tested) partner and perhaps even in that use protection.

Again, even if such a man is in the minority of his kind, that doesn’t equate to an absolute and unexceptional danger within homosexual expression. Potential danger and inherent danger are different things. I suggest you buy a dictionary (and stop tossing your rattle around in this thread).

PS. I’m not the unthinking ‘liberal’ that you lazily assume me to be. I live in Britain and even as someone of mixed race I openly question the push of government agencies and liberal media toward ‘multiculturalism’. I believe that if you wish to be here, you should be OF here, ie. assimilate yourself. I support the death penalty in a country that hasn’t allowed it in decades. Another folly of ranting numbskulls like yourselves is that you seem to think that ‘un-conservative’ lifestyles can be condensed into two mental images; a guy pounding another’s ass and a woman applying for abortion. No one has all the right answers, Zeb. But a grown up will qualify his opinions and exercise a little thought in challenging others’.

PS Zeb, well done for finally posting some actual statistics to go with your rant, they make for damn interesting reading. If that’s the way most gay guys are choosing to conduct themselves (and here in Britain 75 per cent of gay male couples choose to involve partners outside of their relationship), so be it. I’ll never oppose their right to be so reckless, but failure to explore one’s own HIV status and notify potential partners of that is plain reprehensible. In truth I’m not surprised, just as I’m not surprised that 50 per cent of married American men have cheated on their wives or that a third of British marriages presently end in divorce. But tell me, if you met just one gay man who flew in the face of your dire predictions for the happiness, health and spiritual fulfillment of his romantic life, would you shake him by the hand?

The young should be informed of the greater risks (not the ABSOLUTE risks) posed by life as a homosexual man, and I’m with you in your opposition to to liberal whitewashing of certain untidy facts. But who here has denied that those risks exist at all? And who has denied that anal sex bucks the reproductive aims of biology? Humans are different from animals in the obvious sense that our emotions intrude upon and may even determine our sex drive. I personally feel that that fact is enough to dignify ‘the homosexual act’ when an emotional connection is present. Religious opponents cannot sing the praises of promiscuity and never should. The choices are there, and as you claim you don’t dispute the right to those choices. If gay men need to exercise greater thought and question their actions and assumptions more than heteros do, it should be acknowledged and American gay culture should breach these issues before the ‘extreme right’ has the sole claim on the question.

Every time I’ve walked through Hollywood, I’ve had to scrape my shoes. And, I didn’t step in any dog shit.

Only a fool would argue with the point I think the thread was about: Hollywood personalities, those wonderful whackjobs (with a few exceptions), want to impose their perverted views on our nation. They want us to be ‘enlightened’ and accepting of any lifestyle. Well, why the hell don’t they accept my lifestyle, instead of demeaning and laughing at it? Oh, yeah, its BORING! Loving your wife and kids, being honest (perish the thought!), holding your honor as sacred, and so forth. What’s interesting about that? Much better to display for all to see a couple of gay cowboys practising their ‘pony ride’.

What happens at the end? They get killed or something, right? Yeah, I’m too softhearted to do that. I’d just ignore 'em, like the waste-of-space they are. Just like the movie…

[quote]vroom wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Well vroom I think that here is where we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I still live in a world where there is right and wrong. And…in reality most people do.

When you do something that can kill you…um I think that’s wrong.

When you do something that can kill you and also kill others who might be unaware…well that’s wrong too.

Okay, there are several issues here though, and I think you will agree. For example, driving a car is honestly a risky endeavor. People die every day when they simply could have chosen not to drive a car.

Often, people will kill other people with vehicles! Those people can even be unaware, perhaps crossing the street at an intersection when somebody runs a red light.[/quote]

A necessary risk.

I agree.

No, actually it isn’t.

I’m sorry I didn’t mean to imply that at all. There are many homosexual men who do indeed try to act responsibly.

The only problem is that the gay act itself is dangerous. So…even if they are acting “responsibly” they are still putting themselves and others at risk.

(see lining of the rectum part of previous post)

Certainly I agree with you on this.

BUT

If homosexual men would stop having gay sex then the rate of disease, death, anxiety and depression would go down.

They can still be gay if they want…
Okay, I’m having fun with you. But the concept is still the same. The act is inherently dangerous.

(See hitting self with a hammer analogy)

[quote]Zeb, that was not an answer. It was a bunch of studies that DID NOT define what country the studies were done in or what definitions were used when doing the studies.

Honestly, the definitions used to set up the study are very important. If 90% of new AIDS cases were in Africa, for example, where ignorance is rampant and education is sparse, then it may not even be applicable to life over here at all.

Now, I honestly don’t know about how the studies were constructed, or the comparative statistics. This is why I am asking for the definitions used, to see whether the studies support your viewpoint as well as you suggest they do.[/quote]

I have said it before: when you disagree with the statistics (facts, sruveys etc.) question their authenticity!

It’s a debating tactic not merely confined to the internet.

The references are there. You need only read them, for example:

David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison wrote: “The Male Couple.”

The CDC statitstics were taken off of the CDC web site.

And every other stat quoted has an author.

If you want to puruse any of the facts that I quoted simply use your search engine. They are very reliable…

I want everyone to read the following answer very closely.

When an individual is not able through intimidation, name calling or whatever other subtle or not so subtle pressure to state certain facts that might be harming one segment of the population, then that is a dangerous thing.

It is not only dangerous to that specific population. But it is dangerous to everyone!

Information is important upon making a good decision.

As it stands today most people have no clue as to the danger involved in the homosexual act or the homosuxual lifestyle (granted some do not live the lifestyle, but many do).

If you are trying to silence me (or anyone) then you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

How did they “become gay?” And what if they wanted to change? How many legitimate studies have been ignored or not even completed because the politically correct will not allow it?

How many men have died because they thought they were IN FACT born that way? When there is no conclusive proof that this is the case.

Again, it’s not about stopping anyone from being gay if that’s what they want. It’s about spreading the truth and giving them the facts. Then let them make their own decisions based upon the evidence.

It is about education-but that education is not allowed to be heard. And the reason is that the politically correct will not allow it to be heard.

And there in lies the real problem. We are more interested in not offending than we are in actually helping.

vroom, I don’t think anyone (on your side) walks around thinking they are politically correct, or even trying to be politically correct.

Political correctness is so burned into our social fabric you will never be thinking conciously that you are politically correct.

However, I do agree that any legal act is fine with me. And I would defend any gay man who is attacked for being gay. And while you may not believe it I have defended one on one occasion.

Ha ha…it’s usually me throwing out the labels and you dodging them.

I honestly don’t care what you call me. If I have an opportunity to help someone, anyone I will take that opportunity and run with it.

One reason I involve myself in these types of threads (it’s not to change your mind) is that I know there are young men who visit this site and
if even one guy can get some actual truth then I feel I’ve done something good.

Call me a bleeding heart conservative :slight_smile:

vroom it is very difficult for two men to have safe sex. Again, reread what the use of the rectum is. It’s just not built for sex and…just reread it.

vroom, I have always respected your intellect and I always will regardless of the fact that I usually disagree with you my friend.

[quote]digiboy wrote:
PS Zeb, well done for finally posting some actual statistics to go with your rant, they make for damn interesting reading. If that’s the way most gay guys are choosing to conduct themselves (and here in Britain 75 per cent of gay male couples choose to involve partners outside of their relationship), so be it. I’ll never oppose their right to be so reckless, but failure to explore one’s own HIV status and notify potential partners of that is plain reprehensible. [/quote]

Thanks digiboy, I’m glad that you agree with me.

And I agree with you in that it is their life and if they want to live it in a reckless manner it is their choice to do so.

I simply want them to make an informe decision BEFORE it’s to late for them. And some on the left would not have such information available.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’m sorry I didn’t mean to imply that at all. There are many homosexual men who do indeed try to act responsibly.

The only problem is that the gay act itself is dangerous. So…even if they are acting “responsibly” they are still putting themselves and others at risk.

(see lining of the rectum part of previous post)[/quote]

Zeb, I suspect that if a person chooses to act responsibly the so called “gay act” is merely a risk, not necessarily dangerous. You and I may have to disagree on that.

[quote]I have said it before: when you disagree with the statistics (facts, sruveys etc.) question their authenticity!

It’s a debating tactic not merely confined to the internet.[/quote]

Zeb, it is very important to look closely at all studies. I am not questioning the authenticity at all, I am questioning the design of the studies.

It is necessary to do so to determine what they really mean. I suspect that you aren’t aware of the design of the studies in question, or you would tell me they were properly designed and what populations they chose.

[quote]I want everyone to read the following answer very closely.

When an individual is not able through intimidation, name calling or whatever other subtle or not so subtle pressure to state certain facts that might be harming one segment of the population, then that is a dangerous thing.

It is not only dangerous to that specific population. But it is dangerous to everyone!

Information is important upon making a good decision. [/quote]

Zeb, I don’t think anybody is trying to stop people from talking about health and safetye issues. I do think perhaps that talking about them in a way that does not greatly insult that group would allow you much less resistance to your message.

Nobody is trying to silence anybody, well, except for the concept of this thread which is that the movie needs to be “silenced”. Please, it is the same stretch of logic you are making… let’s not quibble. Movies are not meant to be overly informative unless they are documentaries.

[quote]How did they “become gay?” And what if they wanted to change? How many legitimate studies have been ignored or not even completed because the politically correct will not allow it?

How many men have died because they thought they were IN FACT born that way? When there is no conclusive proof that this is the case.[/quote]

Nobody knows. I think it would be short sighted to think it is all one or all the other. The safe assumption is that some people may be able to make a choice and some may not. Given that assumption, then all options are on the table at all times.

See, but your language that states doing so is wrong does not support your language here. You are saying they should make their own decisions. So am I. You are saying they should be informed as to the facts. Great! I have no problem with that either.

[quote]It is about education-but that education is not allowed to be heard. And the reason is that the politically correct will not allow it to be heard.

And there in lies the real problem. We are more interested in not offending than we are in actually helping.[/quote]

Zeb, nobody is trying to silence you, at least not from spreading facts. However, the way you spread your facts often contains a lot of moralizing and judgment. People don’t always like to receive moralizing and judgment, but if you provide the facts minus those issues I honestly expect less people will try to shout you down.

Zeb, I think “political correctness” is simply showing some humanity and sensitivity to the issues of people around you. Many people who do not do this, who are often decried for what they say, don’t realize that they are waltzing through life like a bull in a china shop.

They are pissing off a lot of people. No, I’m not saying you aren’t allowed to piss people off, but when you do so, you can expect to hear about it. That is not censorship. I have been lectured on this myself, you are free to your opinion, but everyone else is free to say your opinion stinks.

[quote]One reason I involve myself in these types of threads (it’s not to change your mind) is that I know there are young men who visit this site and
if even one guy can get some actual truth then I feel I’ve done something good.

Call me a bleeding heart conservative :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Zeb, honestly, do you think I’d not be happy if a young gay man read this thread and noticed the statistics? If this person then decided to make an informed decision, you’ve done the best you can do.

I’m aware of this. However, I’m aware that a very large percentage of the women out there have taken one up the ass from time to time also. It simply is not up to you and I to decide how people choose to fulfil themselves sexually.

Finally, don’t imagine that I am trying to silence you. I’m pointing out things in your speech that stop you from being able to communicate your message to your intended audience.

Seriously, by raising the issues I am, if you consider them, you will be better able to perform what you see as trying to help.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Wow this sounds alot like the “Proof Gay Marriage is Wrong” thread.

Oh wait did I already say that?[/quote]

It was the only way Zeb would have something to complain about. From now on, every thread he jumps into will become the gay marriage debate.

[quote]vroom wrote:

Zeb, it is very important to look closely at all studies. I am not questioning the authenticity at all, I am questioning the design of the studies.

It is necessary to do so to determine what they really mean. I suspect that you aren’t aware of the design of the studies in question, or you would tell me they were properly designed and what populations they chose.[/quote]

I recognized them as quite legitimate. The ability to do further research is certainly available to you.

I listed the source of each quote-it’s just a matter of following it up if you wish.

Um…BULL!

I have never once insulted any homosexual. Nor have I ever (not even once) used a derogatory term to insult homosexuals.

Yet…I have been called a homophobe many, many times. I have also been accused of hating gays.

And why?

Because I have put forth evidence which shows homosexuality in it’s true light, which is very negative.

Everyone knows that this topic is taboo. Sienfeld made that well known when he coined the (overused) phrase:

“not that there’s anything wrong with that.”

It is simply not politically correct for anyone to question this practice. And when you do you get attacked.

[quote]How did they “become gay?” And what if they wanted to change? How many legitimate studies have been ignored or not even completed because the politically correct will not allow it?

It’s about spreading the truth and giving them the facts. Then let them make their own decisions based upon the evidence.

You are saying they should make their own decisions. So am I. You are saying they should be informed as to the facts. Great! I have no problem with that either.[/quote]

The difference is I want to shed light on the evidence which clearly demonstrates that the homosexual act and the lifestyle are dangerous

There are no liberals that I know of who want to read the facts regarding the dangers of homosexuality! None!

There is a reason for that. Just as there is a reason why homosexuals die younger, have more anxiety, a higher rate of depression, and far more health problems during their shorter life span.

(clears throat) THEY ARE KILLING THEMSELVES!

Since that is…how do I say this dangerous behavior and it harms people I have a special word for it, I use the word: WRONG!

Oh I don’t know vroom. I’ve never known liberal who wants to hear about anything negative regarding one of their sacred cows.

I do get plenty of PM’s telling me that they were unaware of certain facts that I have put forth.

And others telling me to keep fighting the good fight. They would but they don’t want to be “attacked.”

Soooo…I’ll keep calling it like I see it. Those who want to open their minds and see some information they will never get in their High School or College can read what I have to say.

Those who want to keep their minds closed and swallow the liberal logic being dished by some…can just skip over my posts.

It’s their choice.

I can do no more (or less) than continue to speak the truth.

I might even help some…you never know.

I have read posts by some who attack gays. They call them names, they ridicule them. I don’t like that behavior and I have NEVER participated in doing that sort of thing.

I would describe those people as “waltzing through life like a bull in a china shop.”

What I do is put forth facts. And if those facts point out a behavior that leads to pain in someones life I call that behavior {b]WRONG.[/b]

Sure they can do it, it’s America. But Americans do plenty of things that are wrong…

You don’t like me calling that behavior wrong do you?

Well…that’s something you are going to have to live with. Or you could stop reading my posts.

And I know you don’t want to do that ole’ pal :slight_smile:

I think you would be happy vroom. But there are others on this forum who simply ooze hate and contempt for anything they percieve as factual regarding homosexuality.

They just don’t want to hear about it.

Um…I think I follow your subtlety. :slight_smile:

I’m sure not doing that!

What I am doing is pointing out that certain bahvior is not healthy in any way.

If a group of people were standing out in front of cars on a highway for kicks I would inform them as well.

You see…I’m kind like that.

Hey…I get it now. You are helping me!

And I am helping homosexuals realize the dangerous behavior in which they partake.

We are on the same team vroom!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Wow this sounds alot like the “Proof Gay Marriage is Wrong” thread.

Oh wait did I already say that?

It was the only way Zeb would have something to complain about. From now on, every thread he jumps into will become the gay marriage debate.[/quote]

And if you keep posting the way you have been you will attract more haters than you now have on your very own Prof x hate thread!

I refuse to post on that baby prof…I never kick a dog while he’s down.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Um…BULL!

I have never once insulted any homosexual. Nor have I ever (not even once) used a derogatory term to insult homosexuals.[/quote]

Zeb, you are very good at making insinuations and being insulting without using derogatory terms. Your concern about which words are being used is a bit silly in that light.

[quote]Yet…I have been called a homophobe many, many times. I have also been accused of hating gays.

And why?

Because I have put forth evidence which shows homosexuality in it’s true light, which is very negative.

Everyone knows that this topic is taboo. Sienfeld made that well known when he coined the (overused) phrase:[/quote]

Honestly, that is not why. If that is ALL you did, then you wouldn’t be catching the heat that you are. Homosexuality is not a taboo subject and I’ve been agreeing with some of your points, I don’t see anybody berating me for it.

Wrong. The aspect of political correctness more specifically deals with how an issue is addressed, not whther or not a subject is brought up at all.

I’m not sure anybody has ever figured out a way to determine this. You think that endless money is available to study everything on the planet? Who would fund such research?

As before, I’ve struck for a middle of the road safe bet, such that some people may be able to choose and some others may not. It seems reasonable to grant that. People would not be so upset this issue if they felt their preference was simply a choice they could reverse at will.

Yes, but you also go a little bit further than that, and I think you know it.

Zeb, here is an important point. I will grant that there is evidence that suggests these things certainly can be risky. However, because steps can be taken to circumvent these risks, it is not that is must be that risky.

For some reason you refuse to accept this line of thought. This is where you start to sound a little rabid in your viewpoint. The mere act of providing an education about the risks reduces the risks.

I take it I am no longer a liberal? I’ve conceded your points concerning various (some, not all) RISKS of homosexuality. However, I do not see you willing to accept any supposition that gay people can reduce their risks and act responsibly.

Again, due to this you sound very unreasonable and anti-gay. Surely you can understand why people would draw such a conclusion? Anyway, though you probably won’t believe it, I submit to you that the reason people attack your viewpoint is because you do in fact sound anti-gay, as opposed to simply wanting to discuss risks and provide information about those risks.

[quote]There is a reason for that. Just as there is a reason why homosexuals die younger, have more anxiety, a higher rate of depression, and far more health problems during their shorter life span.

(clears throat) THEY ARE KILLING THEMSELVES![/quote]

Zeb, some gay people die younger, some have more anxiety (though we don’t know what the reasons are for that…) and some have more depression (though we don’t know the reason for that either…) and that certainly those unlucky enough to catch certain diseases will have plenty of health problems.

Again, your view that they are doing something wrong, as opposed to the risks that other people take, such as smoking a cigarette, is strange. There are many ways that people choose to increase their risks. However, we don’t tell these people thay they are inherently wrong or bad for making such a choice.

As soon as you start acting as the judge of morality, instead of letting the legal system and/or your diety of choice do so, you are going to annoy people.

Other people don’t have to like your judgements in this regard. Again, though you are unlikely to change your behavior and probably won’t believe it, this is the cause of all the hysteria that follows you around.

Nobody would get riled at all if you discussed homosexuality without trying to act as the moral judge of other peoples decisions. If you feel strongly about this, then you should work to change the laws.

Also, I really expect to see you claim racing, boxing, football and other contact sports as WRONG, because they are certainly riskier than not participating in those sports. And, honestly, such participation is not a necessity, such as driving a car AT TIMES is – because most of us drive for non-necessity purposes also.

We all choose to take additional risks every day, but we don’t have moral police running claiming we are in the wrong every time we do so. The fact that you do this for homosexuality certainly makes you appear anti-gay. Your behavior is not consistent!

Again, it’s not what you talk about, is the moral proselytizing that drives them around the bend.

[quote]I do get plenty of PM’s telling me that they were unaware of certain facts that I have put forth.

And others telling me to keep fighting the good fight. They would but they don’t want to be “attacked.”[/quote]

Anybody who takes a stand gets lots of PM’s Zeb. You aren’t the only person who does…

[quote]Those who want to keep their minds closed and swallow the liberal logic being dished by some…can just skip over my posts.

It’s their choice.[/quote]

What liberal logic are you talking about? The logic is not really what is in dispute. People are willing to admit the risk factors of various actions, even though you won’t admit that they can be ameliorated, but it is your moral proclamations that closes minds.

Zeb, sometimes you have a way of misusing and mischaracterizing what you see as facts. This has happened a few times in our past when you’ve mistaken my comments for something they were not.

If you really want to make sure you are spouting the truth, then you have to be fair and honest and reflective of all sides of the issue. A partial truth is not the truth, and you full well know that.

[quote]You don’t like me calling that behavior wrong do you?

Well…that’s something you are going to have to live with. Or you could stop reading my posts.[/quote]

What is with the hostility? What have I done to deserve this? I’m simply showing you how people are interpreting your statements and why they are doing so.

It isn’t that I don’t LIKE your calling this behavior wrong, it is that your logic is not consistent. You have no real rationale for claiming it is wrong, so we are left to surmise this is simply your personal belief. Generally, most people have learned that unsupported prejudicial viewpoints are in fact bad.

If you wish to make statements that make you sound homophobic and prejudiced, that is entirely your right, and I certainly won’t stop you. You’ll have to blame others for trying to stop you.

[quote]I think you would be happy vroom. But there are others on this forum who simply ooze hate and contempt for anything they percieve as factual regarding homosexuality.

They just don’t want to hear about it.[/quote]

Zeb, you need to be consistent. Now you are pretending that all you do is refer to factual things, when a moment ago you crowed about how you judged this wrong. You can certainly believe something is wrong, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a fact.

Again, I don’t think many people have problems with what are pure facts, especially when they are completely disclosed (in terms of the study designs and populations being referred to). Real discourse involves providing enough information for other parties to draw their own conclusions.

[quote]I’m aware of this. However, I’m aware that a very large percentage of the women out there have taken one up the ass from time to time also.

Um…I think I follow your subtlety. :slight_smile:
[/quote]

There is no subtlety involved at all. I’m suggesting that gay people are not the only people to engage in anal intercourse. There are of course women into butt play who use dildos, but plugs, or other devices as well as regular old taking it up the ass.

How come you are not claiming these anal acts are morally wrong? I didn’t hear one peep out of you on this particular issue.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
No one is denying your opinion on homosexuality. However, to critique a movie negatively that you never saw makes no sense at all. No one needs you to “warn” them of this movie.[/quote]

So why make a big stink about the fact I posted an article which conveyed that Brokeback Mountain was filled with propaganda? I wasn’t here to initiate religious debates on the issue. Others who are in the film industry are convinced of this truth as well. Is it so wrong for someone to post something that’s true or something that everyone might already realize? Sheesh…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Ahahahahahaha.

All lifestyles are burdensome… and didn’t you just go on a tirade about how many Christians don’t act very Christian, perhaps possessing hateful traits and ungodly vices?

Ahahahaha.

You are describing life. It’s a reality that many of us see every day. I think you just shot down your whole point and argument.

Nice.[/quote]

How did I shoot down my own argument? I posted an article that conveyed that Brokeback Mountain was filled with propaganda. The article clearly describes the contrasts between heterosexual and homosexual lifestyles in the film. Yes, all lifestyles are burdensome to an extent, but it seems the filmmakers pulled out the big guns against marriage, procreation, and fidelity which in essence helped glamourize the two male characters as heroes (you did research the articles I posted right?) and snared the host of women Dr. Winfield interviewed to fall under the impression that the theme revolved around true love.