Lorisco,
You went and saw the movie?!?!?
DIE EVIL THREAD DIE.
[quote]horny yoda wrote:
No. Ok, you DON’T actually EVER start thinking that last one.
Unless you’ve seen brokeback mountain.
And by then, you’re probably just a drooling gay-zombie-for-jesus-and-beef.
So for god’s sakes! Don’t watch brokeback mountain! One second you’ll be ordering a subscription to playboy, the next second you’ll find yourself chugging cock.
hah.
[/quote]
You are not actually that dense are you?
Tell me you don’t think that anyone is implying that by watching Brokback mountain they are going to become gay.
Please tell me you have not gotten that from any of the posts on this thread…
Come on…
Say it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
People don’t choose to be gay, nor can they change their orientation.[/quote]
I don’t think anyone consciously chooses to have a same sex attraction. But there seem to be underlying things that do occur in their childhood which actually seem to make a difference in their sexual preference later on in life.
-Being molested as a child.
-Having an estranged relationship with either a mother or father.
-Having an early childhood homosexual experience.
And many other reasons.
But, there is yet no proof that anyone is born homosexual.
The jury is still out on that one.
[bAnd change is very possible.[/b]
By the way how can even one person change if they are,
“born that way?”
How many black people change color? (Other than Michael Jackson)
How many women change into men?
Yet, many homosexuals seem to give up same sex attraction with therapy:
"May 9, 2001 - The psychiatrist who led the team that deleted homosexuality from the diagnostic manual in 1973, now says homosexuality may sometimes be changeable.
His provocative new study drew worldwide media attention at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual conference on May 9th.
Dr. Robert L. Spitzer’s study was funded by his department’s research unit. He is Professor of Psychiatry and Chief of Biometrics at Columbia University.
“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted–but that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Most mental-health associations have recently issued warnings about therapy to change sexual orientation. Homosexual fantasies and feelings can be renounced or resisted, most clinicians agree–but not transformed.
But in a panel discussion at the annual A.P.A. meeting, Spitzer released the evidence for his conclusions.
He reported interviewing 200 subjects (143 men and 57 women) who were willing to describe their sexual and emotional histories, including their self-reported shift from gay to straight.
Dr. Spitzer is best recognized in psychiatric history for his scientific role in 1973–he led the team that investigated whether homosexuality should be removed from the psychiatric manual. He drew bitter criticism during that historic event from psychoanalysts who sought to retain homosexuality among the list of disorders. Since then, Dr. Spitzer had been convinced that sexual orientation is unchangeable.
But on the opening day of the American Psychiatric Association’s annual conference two years ago–in 1999–he was drawn to a group of ex-gays staging a demonstration at the entrance to the conference building.
The picketers were objecting to the A.P.A.'s recent resolution discouraging therapy to change homosexuality to heterosexuality. They carried placards saying, “Homosexuals Can Change–We Did–Ask Us!”
Others said, “Don’t Affirm Me into a Lifestyle that was Killing Me Physically and Spiritually,” and “The APA Has Betrayed America with Politically Correct Science.”
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS…OH MY
Some of the psychiatrists tore up the literature handed out to them by the protesters. But others stopped to offer the protestors a few quiet words of encouragement.
Dr. Spitzer was skeptical, but he decided to find out for himself if sexual orientation was changeable. He developed a 45-minute telephone interview which he personally admistered to all the subjects. Most had been referred to him by The National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality and by Exodus, a ministry for homosexual strugglers. To be eligible for the study, the subjects had to experience a significant shift from homosexual to heterosexual attraction which had lasted for at least five years.
Most of the subjects said their religious faith was very important in their lives, and about three-quarters of the men and half of the women had been heterosexually married by the time of the study. Most had sought change because a gay lifestyle had been emotionally unsatisfying. Many had been disturbed by promiscuity, stormy relationships, a conflict with their religious values, and the desire to be (or to stay) heterosexually married.
Typically, the effort to change did not produce significant results for the first two years. Subjects said they were helped by examining their family and childhood experiences, and understanding how those factors might have contributed to their gender identity and sexual orientation. Same-sex mentoring relationships, behavior-therapy techniques and group therapy were also mentioned as particularly helpful.
To the researchers’ surprise, good heterosexual functioning was reportedly achieved by 67% of the men who had rarely or never felt any opposite-sex attraction before the change process. Nearly all the subjects said they now feel more masculine (in the case of men) or more feminine (women).
“Contrary to conventioned wisdom,” Spitzer concluded, “some highly motivated individuals, using a variety of change efforts, can make substantial change in multiple indicators of sexual orientation, and achieve good heterosexual functioning.”
He added that change from homosexual to heterosexual is not usually a matter of “either/or,” but exists on a continuum–that is, a diminishing of homosexuality and an expansion of heterosexual potential that is exhibited in widely varying degrees.
But, Dr. Spitzer said, his findings suggest that complete change–cessation of all homosexual fantasies and attractions (which is generally considered an unrealistic goal in most therapies) is probably quite uncommon. Still, when subjects did not actually change sexual orientation–for example, their change had been one of behavioral control and self-identity, but no significant shift in attractions–they still reported an improvement in overall emotional health and functioning.
This study is believed to be the most detailed investigation of sexual orientation change to date, in that it assessed a variety of homosexual indicators. Previous studies have usually assessed only one or two dimensions of sexual orientation, such as behavior and attraction. The assessment tool was developed with the assistance of New York psychiatrist Dr. Richard C. Friedman.
Dr. Spitzer used a structured interview so that others could know exactly what questions were asked, and what response choices were offered to the subjects. The full data file is now available to other researchers, including tape-recordings of about a third of the interviews, which (with the subjects’ permission and without any reference to their names) can be listened to by investigators who wish to carry such research further.
He expressed his gratitude to the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), and to the ex-gay ministry Exodus, “without which this study would not have been possible.”
American Psychiatric Association president Daniel Borenstein was asked by the Washington Post to comment on the recent Spitzer study. “There are a group of people who think all homosexual behavior must be changed…and they try to impose their values [on gay men and lesbians}, which is inappropriate,” he said.
Dr. Spitzer agreed that this study should not be used to justify coercion. Nor should it be used as an argument for the denial of civil rights. “But patients should have the right,” Spitzer stated, “to explore their heterosexual potential.”
So much for politically correct propaganda!
Zeb,
You take a point beyond it’s rational conclusion.
The people talking in that long ass diatribe say that SOME people MAY be able to make a choice.
Those are important clarifications. Why do you always gloss over such things to make sweeping claims?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Every time I’ve walked through Hollywood, I’ve had to scrape my shoes. And, I didn’t step in any dog shit.
Only a fool would argue with the point I think the thread was about: Hollywood personalities, those wonderful whackjobs (with a few exceptions), want to impose their perverted views on our nation. They want us to be ‘enlightened’ and accepting of any lifestyle. Well, why the hell don’t they accept my lifestyle, instead of demeaning and laughing at it? Oh, yeah, its BORING! Loving your wife and kids, being honest (perish the thought!), holding your honor as sacred, and so forth. What’s interesting about that? Much better to display for all to see a couple of gay cowboys practising their ‘pony ride’.
What happens at the end? They get killed or something, right? Yeah, I’m too softhearted to do that. I’d just ignore 'em, like the waste-of-space they are. Just like the movie…[/quote]
Who demeans your lifestyle or laughs at it?
However, you see it yourself, it would make a mindnumbingly boring movie.
Unless of course you believe that it demeans your lifestyle if other people chose to live differently, that would be entirely our problem and you shouldn?t try to make it anybody elses.
[quote]vroom wrote:
A university has a responsibility to maintain a safe and orderly environment that allows learning.[/quote]
Let me translate that for you:
A University has the right to silence those who choose to dissent from politically correct thought.
And vroom…that sucks!
Um…we sort of already strayed from the thread bud.
And that is exactly what we are discussing: run away political correctness!
But how can anyone change if they are born that way?
Answer: They can’t!
But the study shows that not only did they change but they also were quite happy.
Go figure…
Do you know what “fair” is?
Fair is being able to question the status quo without being called a homophobe!
-
You keep claiming that IF they take precautions anal sex is fine. However, it seems according to statistics that they DON’T take precautions. Hence, everything is not fine.
-
Promiscuity often rules the homosexual lifestyle (not with everyone). Hence, homosexuals are often changing partners more often than someone at a country square dance (did you like that one?)
-
And finally (for the purposes of our discussion at least) placing anything inside the rectum is dangerous! And yes it’s dangerous no matter if the rectum is male or female.
Some? Yea…over a half a million men…That is quite a large number
Vroom your “some” actually equals many.
No actually because the lining of the rectum is quite thin in comparison to the vagina (and the rectums configuration) there are far more risks involved.
(and it’s configuration) The only real difference in your truth is that the vigorous action required to penetrate the anus may cause tears, which then offer an opportunity for infection.[/quote]
That’s only one problem buddy. Read the link I sent you.
You think?
No there’s not a thing wrong with sticking your penis in a mans rectum…nothing at all.
Just this:
-
Higher risk of AIDS
-
Higher risk of STD’s
-
Higher risk of most major disease’s
And…it seems the gay lifestyle also leads to this:
-
Higher suicide rate.
-
Higher anxiety levels.
-
Higher domestic abuse.
-
Higher levels of depression.
Yea…there’s nothing wrong with any of that that I can see.
(Okay now back to reality)
That’s funny I don’t think it’s “fair” to watch a young mand of only 21 die of AIDS in a hosptial bed at a body weight of 90 pounds…
Funny how life can be unfair…
The gay sex act is inherently unsafe!
There is no “safe sex” it’s a myth.
Please reread my many posts on the matter.
I am not here to argue both sides of the issue. I believe that the homosexual act is dangerous and I have clearly showed why in the many statistics that I have posted.
And furthermore I never once stated that these stats apply to ALL homosexuals.
However, they do apply to a very large group. Depending on the study various stats may apply to all or a small minority of homosexuals.
I appreciate the fact that you are not meaning to call me names. But I think that you did.
You stated: “If you wish to make statements that make you sound homophobic …”
Could be you are the one playing word games now…
[quote]See, your claims of fairness are not supported by your words/actions in these issues. By the way, that would appear to be wrong!
[/quote]
Then you do admit to right and wrong!
Well that’s a start for you vroom.
And by the way when you point out a “wrong” to help someone (such as you are thinking that you are doing with me) it is a good thing.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
People don’t choose to be gay, nor can they change their orientation.
I don’t think anyone consciously chooses to have a same sex attraction. But there seem to be underlying things that do occur in their childhood which actually seem to make a difference in their sexual preference later on in life.
-Being molested as a child.
-Having an estranged relationship with either a mother or father.
-Having an early childhood homosexual experience.
And many other reasons.
But, there is yet no proof that anyone is born homosexual.
The jury is still out on that one.
[bAnd change is very possible.[/b]
By the way how can even one person change if they are,
“born that way?”
How many black people change color? (Other than Michael Jackson)
How many women change into men?
Yet, many homosexuals seem to give up same sex attraction with therapy:
"May 9, 2001 - The psychiatrist who led the team that deleted homosexuality from the diagnostic manual in 1973, now says homosexuality may sometimes be changeable.
His provocative new study drew worldwide media attention at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual conference on May 9th.
Dr. Robert L. Spitzer’s study was funded by his department’s research unit. He is Professor of Psychiatry and Chief of Biometrics at Columbia University.
“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted–but that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Most mental-health associations have recently issued warnings about therapy to change sexual orientation. Homosexual fantasies and feelings can be renounced or resisted, most clinicians agree–but not transformed.
But in a panel discussion at the annual A.P.A. meeting, Spitzer released the evidence for his conclusions.
He reported interviewing 200 subjects (143 men and 57 women) who were willing to describe their sexual and emotional histories, including their self-reported shift from gay to straight.
Dr. Spitzer is best recognized in psychiatric history for his scientific role in 1973–he led the team that investigated whether homosexuality should be removed from the psychiatric manual. He drew bitter criticism during that historic event from psychoanalysts who sought to retain homosexuality among the list of disorders. Since then, Dr. Spitzer had been convinced that sexual orientation is unchangeable.
But on the opening day of the American Psychiatric Association’s annual conference two years ago–in 1999–he was drawn to a group of ex-gays staging a demonstration at the entrance to the conference building.
The picketers were objecting to the A.P.A.'s recent resolution discouraging therapy to change homosexuality to heterosexuality. They carried placards saying, “Homosexuals Can Change–We Did–Ask Us!”
Others said, “Don’t Affirm Me into a Lifestyle that was Killing Me Physically and Spiritually,” and “The APA Has Betrayed America with Politically Correct Science.”
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS…OH MY
Some of the psychiatrists tore up the literature handed out to them by the protesters. But others stopped to offer the protestors a few quiet words of encouragement.
Dr. Spitzer was skeptical, but he decided to find out for himself if sexual orientation was changeable. He developed a 45-minute telephone interview which he personally admistered to all the subjects. Most had been referred to him by The National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality and by Exodus, a ministry for homosexual strugglers. To be eligible for the study, the subjects had to experience a significant shift from homosexual to heterosexual attraction which had lasted for at least five years.
Most of the subjects said their religious faith was very important in their lives, and about three-quarters of the men and half of the women had been heterosexually married by the time of the study. Most had sought change because a gay lifestyle had been emotionally unsatisfying. Many had been disturbed by promiscuity, stormy relationships, a conflict with their religious values, and the desire to be (or to stay) heterosexually married.
Typically, the effort to change did not produce significant results for the first two years. Subjects said they were helped by examining their family and childhood experiences, and understanding how those factors might have contributed to their gender identity and sexual orientation. Same-sex mentoring relationships, behavior-therapy techniques and group therapy were also mentioned as particularly helpful.
To the researchers’ surprise, good heterosexual functioning was reportedly achieved by 67% of the men who had rarely or never felt any opposite-sex attraction before the change process. Nearly all the subjects said they now feel more masculine (in the case of men) or more feminine (women).
“Contrary to conventioned wisdom,” Spitzer concluded, “some highly motivated individuals, using a variety of change efforts, can make substantial change in multiple indicators of sexual orientation, and achieve good heterosexual functioning.”
He added that change from homosexual to heterosexual is not usually a matter of “either/or,” but exists on a continuum–that is, a diminishing of homosexuality and an expansion of heterosexual potential that is exhibited in widely varying degrees.
But, Dr. Spitzer said, his findings suggest that complete change–cessation of all homosexual fantasies and attractions (which is generally considered an unrealistic goal in most therapies) is probably quite uncommon. Still, when subjects did not actually change sexual orientation–for example, their change had been one of behavioral control and self-identity, but no significant shift in attractions–they still reported an improvement in overall emotional health and functioning.
This study is believed to be the most detailed investigation of sexual orientation change to date, in that it assessed a variety of homosexual indicators. Previous studies have usually assessed only one or two dimensions of sexual orientation, such as behavior and attraction. The assessment tool was developed with the assistance of New York psychiatrist Dr. Richard C. Friedman.
Dr. Spitzer used a structured interview so that others could know exactly what questions were asked, and what response choices were offered to the subjects. The full data file is now available to other researchers, including tape-recordings of about a third of the interviews, which (with the subjects’ permission and without any reference to their names) can be listened to by investigators who wish to carry such research further.
He expressed his gratitude to the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), and to the ex-gay ministry Exodus, “without which this study would not have been possible.”
American Psychiatric Association president Daniel Borenstein was asked by the Washington Post to comment on the recent Spitzer study. “There are a group of people who think all homosexual behavior must be changed…and they try to impose their values [on gay men and lesbians}, which is inappropriate,” he said.
Dr. Spitzer agreed that this study should not be used to justify coercion. Nor should it be used as an argument for the denial of civil rights. “But patients should have the right,” Spitzer stated, “to explore their heterosexual potential.”
So much for politically correct propaganda!
[/quote]
There is work that has been done that does infact determine that there “gay” is a congenital condition and possibly has a pathogenic constituent.
The main thing tend to be that they are a second child, which, it has been suggested, allows for possible infiltration and immunoresistence which in further embreos have a likelyhood of being affected.
When it is suggested that that is not the case, many women have unknown miscarriages, therefore a first child may infact be a second one.
I am unaware of any FMRI studies done, and i imagine animal testing would somewhat pointless. This is a very large question to ask, and frankly, a psychiatrist is one of the least likely individuals to answer it. The answer would be more likely to be found at a neurscientists door.
(especially as shrinks in your country seem to wallow in freudianism!!! is that the case?)
Zeb, consider that the Spitzer study you just mentioned contradicts decades of objective research by every major medical and mental health organization. If you want to know the facts behind the Spitzer study, go here:
Do you really want to know the truth? Or are you so convinced of your religious beliefs that no amount of evidence to the contrary will change your perspective?
So-called “ex-gay” organizations hold out a false hope to gay men and women that believe it is wrong to be attracted to someone of the same gender. By their definition, I was “cured” from my homosexuality. After all, I went more than two decades without allowing myself to act on my natural attraction. Whenever I had a homosexual thought, I immediately fought it and pushed it away.
But you know what? My basic orientation never changed. All of those years of repression and denial made me unhappy, depressed, and unable to be the kind of husband and father that I so wanted to be. Despite decades of valiant effort, I was unable to change who I was.
Maybe there are some people out there who are more bisexual, and who can possibly find themselves genuinely happy in a heterosexual relationship. However, I wasn’t one of them, and there are millions like me. People like you, who push gay men and women into solutions that are impossible to achieve, only do us harm in the long run.
But dont take my word for it:
The American Psychological Association has concluded:
"Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.
Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?
No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.
However, not all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals."
The American Psychiatric Association concurs:
“Psychiatric literature strongly demonstrates that treatment attempts to change sexual orientation are ineffective. However, the potential risks are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior…”
According to the American Medical Association:
“…most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an un-accepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians.”
Finally, the Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”
[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,
You take a point beyond it’s rational conclusion.
The people talking in that long ass diatribe say that SOME people MAY be able to make a choice.
Those are important clarifications. Why do you always gloss over such things to make sweeping claims?[/quote]
Oh vroom you always seem to either miss the point or somehow mischaracterize it.
The study included 200 subjects and over half of them changed!
Point being: Change can happen under the proper conditions.
However, how are young folks supposed to know about this iinformation when the politically correct (not you) are trying to silence it?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
vroom wrote:
Zeb,
You take a point beyond it’s rational conclusion.
The people talking in that long ass diatribe say that SOME people MAY be able to make a choice.
Those are important clarifications. Why do you always gloss over such things to make sweeping claims?
Oh vroom you always seem to either miss the point or somehow mischaracterize it.
The study included 200 subjects and over half of them changed!
Point being: Change can happen under the proper conditions.
However, how are young folks supposed to know about this iinformation when the politically correct (not you) are trying to silence it?
[/quote]
Are they still “changed”?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Zeb, consider that the Spitzer study you just mentioned contradicts decades of objective research by every major medical and mental health organization.
[/quote]
That’s not the case forlife. In fact, homosexuality was officially termed a “mental disorder” until 1973.
There were many homosexuals who were treated and many successfully returned to heterosexuality.
Granted, not all of them did. But then not all alcoholics can give up the bottle.
I think it has a lot to do with where you are personally with your sexuality.
I know that must have been difficult for you.
But how can 66% of lesbians and about half the men be changed?
They claimed after the therapy (was it two or three years?) that they were in happily committed hetersexual relationships.
As I said it may not work for everyone, but what does?
Is “bisexual” supposed to be genetic too?
But…what about those who left homosexuality and are presently involved in heterosexual relationships and claim they are happy?
Are they all lying?
I don’t think so.
[quote]But dont take my word for it:
The American Psychological Association has concluded:[/quote]
The American Psycological Association was hijacked by the politically correct many years ago.
Their quote means nothing.
Quote something from a source that has not sold their soul to the left.
In closing I would like to ask you a question:
What sort of childhood did you have?
I am curious if you fit one of the many patterns which have been documented.
You seem like a very open and sincere individual.
I apologize if this question is offensive. However, since you have mentioned the fact that you were gay I cannot help but be curious about your upbringing.
No need to answer on the forum if you find it awkward.
I thank you,
Zeb
playing cowboys.
Vroom, just give up man. Zeb will not agree with reason on this issue until he at least admits the fear or dislike that he has for homosexuals.
[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
playing cowboys.[/quote]
LMAO!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Are they still “changed”?[/quote]
Very good question. They were as of 2003.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
So I guess there is just no winning with you guys. Things that would offend other races apparently don’t offend you. Or maybe it is who stated it? If a white guy or someone else made that statement all hell would break loose. But if someone from your own community states it than we non-blacks are the racists for even bring it up. That’s just great. And you wonder why there is still racism. Well here is a good example.
I believe that most people are not racists and want to get along with all, but with double standards like these it makes it very difficult.
[/quote]
Lorisco,
Why does this have to be about winning? This has more to do with how the question was approached. It was done in a manner that assumed others should know what we find offensive. Do you or anyone else talking about this understand how that could annoy someone? This was coupled with name-calling and assumptions of our actions because those of us of color didn’t respond the way that was expected. When you do this, you are not going to get what you are looking for, a reasonable discourse, it will just turn into another useless flame session.
None of us is going to react because someone “double-dog” dared us. As I mentioned earlier, I wasn’t even on the board for a while, but when I got back, I got lumped into a group as a PC coward because I didn’t respond in time and in the way that was expected. This is not a very effective tactic for asking a question.
A better way would be if someone would have said, “I think this statement could be offensive to black people. (Insert name here), do you find this statement offensive to you?” Believe me, you would get a different and better response.
By the way, when you make assumptions like this "Things that would offend other races apparently don’t offend you. Or maybe it is who stated it? If a white guy or someone else made that statement all hell would break loose. But if someone from your own community states it than we non-blacks are the racists for even bring it up. That’s just great. And you wonder why there is still racism. Well here is a good example." doesn’t help.
Just pointing these things out. I am more than willing to start this over in a more positive manner if you guys would like to.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
forlife wrote:
People don’t choose to be gay, nor can they change their orientation.
I don’t think anyone consciously chooses to have a same sex attraction. But there seem to be underlying things that do occur in their childhood which actually seem to make a difference in their sexual preference later on in life.
-Being molested as a child.
-Having an estranged relationship with either a mother or father.
-Having an early childhood homosexual experience.
And many other reasons.
But, there is yet no proof that anyone is born homosexual.
The jury is still out on that one.
[bAnd change is very possible.[/b]
By the way how can even one person change if they are,
“born that way?”
How many black people change color? (Other than Michael Jackson)
How many women change into men?
Yet, many homosexuals seem to give up same sex attraction with therapy:
"May 9, 2001 - The psychiatrist who led the team that deleted homosexuality from the diagnostic manual in 1973, now says homosexuality may sometimes be changeable.
His provocative new study drew worldwide media attention at the American Psychiatric Association’s annual conference on May 9th.
Dr. Robert L. Spitzer’s study was funded by his department’s research unit. He is Professor of Psychiatry and Chief of Biometrics at Columbia University.
“Like most psychiatrists,” says Dr. Spitzer, “I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted–but that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe that’s untrue–some people can and do change.”
Most mental-health associations have recently issued warnings about therapy to change sexual orientation. Homosexual fantasies and feelings can be renounced or resisted, most clinicians agree–but not transformed.
But in a panel discussion at the annual A.P.A. meeting, Spitzer released the evidence for his conclusions.
He reported interviewing 200 subjects (143 men and 57 women) who were willing to describe their sexual and emotional histories, including their self-reported shift from gay to straight.
Dr. Spitzer is best recognized in psychiatric history for his scientific role in 1973–he led the team that investigated whether homosexuality should be removed from the psychiatric manual. He drew bitter criticism during that historic event from psychoanalysts who sought to retain homosexuality among the list of disorders. Since then, Dr. Spitzer had been convinced that sexual orientation is unchangeable.
But on the opening day of the American Psychiatric Association’s annual conference two years ago–in 1999–he was drawn to a group of ex-gays staging a demonstration at the entrance to the conference building.
The picketers were objecting to the A.P.A.'s recent resolution discouraging therapy to change homosexuality to heterosexuality. They carried placards saying, “Homosexuals Can Change–We Did–Ask Us!”
Others said, “Don’t Affirm Me into a Lifestyle that was Killing Me Physically and Spiritually,” and “The APA Has Betrayed America with Politically Correct Science.”
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS…OH MY
Some of the psychiatrists tore up the literature handed out to them by the protesters. But others stopped to offer the protestors a few quiet words of encouragement.
Dr. Spitzer was skeptical, but he decided to find out for himself if sexual orientation was changeable. He developed a 45-minute telephone interview which he personally admistered to all the subjects. Most had been referred to him by The National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality and by Exodus, a ministry for homosexual strugglers. To be eligible for the study, the subjects had to experience a significant shift from homosexual to heterosexual attraction which had lasted for at least five years.
Most of the subjects said their religious faith was very important in their lives, and about three-quarters of the men and half of the women had been heterosexually married by the time of the study. Most had sought change because a gay lifestyle had been emotionally unsatisfying. Many had been disturbed by promiscuity, stormy relationships, a conflict with their religious values, and the desire to be (or to stay) heterosexually married.
Typically, the effort to change did not produce significant results for the first two years. Subjects said they were helped by examining their family and childhood experiences, and understanding how those factors might have contributed to their gender identity and sexual orientation. Same-sex mentoring relationships, behavior-therapy techniques and group therapy were also mentioned as particularly helpful.
To the researchers’ surprise, good heterosexual functioning was reportedly achieved by 67% of the men who had rarely or never felt any opposite-sex attraction before the change process. Nearly all the subjects said they now feel more masculine (in the case of men) or more feminine (women).
“Contrary to conventioned wisdom,” Spitzer concluded, “some highly motivated individuals, using a variety of change efforts, can make substantial change in multiple indicators of sexual orientation, and achieve good heterosexual functioning.”
He added that change from homosexual to heterosexual is not usually a matter of “either/or,” but exists on a continuum–that is, a diminishing of homosexuality and an expansion of heterosexual potential that is exhibited in widely varying degrees.
But, Dr. Spitzer said, his findings suggest that complete change–cessation of all homosexual fantasies and attractions (which is generally considered an unrealistic goal in most therapies) is probably quite uncommon. Still, when subjects did not actually change sexual orientation–for example, their change had been one of behavioral control and self-identity, but no significant shift in attractions–they still reported an improvement in overall emotional health and functioning.
This study is believed to be the most detailed investigation of sexual orientation change to date, in that it assessed a variety of homosexual indicators. Previous studies have usually assessed only one or two dimensions of sexual orientation, such as behavior and attraction. The assessment tool was developed with the assistance of New York psychiatrist Dr. Richard C. Friedman.
Dr. Spitzer used a structured interview so that others could know exactly what questions were asked, and what response choices were offered to the subjects. The full data file is now available to other researchers, including tape-recordings of about a third of the interviews, which (with the subjects’ permission and without any reference to their names) can be listened to by investigators who wish to carry such research further.
He expressed his gratitude to the National Association of Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), and to the ex-gay ministry Exodus, “without which this study would not have been possible.”
American Psychiatric Association president Daniel Borenstein was asked by the Washington Post to comment on the recent Spitzer study. “There are a group of people who think all homosexual behavior must be changed…and they try to impose their values [on gay men and lesbians}, which is inappropriate,” he said.
Dr. Spitzer agreed that this study should not be used to justify coercion. Nor should it be used as an argument for the denial of civil rights. “But patients should have the right,” Spitzer stated, “to explore their heterosexual potential.”
So much for politically correct propaganda!
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We get it, Zeb: you don’t like fags. Give it up.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Quote something from a source that has not sold their soul to the left.
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Not trying to hijack the thread ZEB, but can you find any source on anything in this country nowadays that hasn’t sold their soul to someone (the left, the right, the almighty dollar, the martians (LOL) etc.)? It’s damn near impossible.
Zeb presents info and facts. His detractors seem bent on somehow switching this to him hating on others. How one argues with numbers and facts is an issue they have to deal with.
Zeb, I think its admirable how you hang in there despite all the attempts at switching your argument. Good work!!
I personally think homosexuality is a violation of the laws of nature. Luckily for them, we don’t enforce those laws. (Thanks Philo