Brokeback Propaganda

Yet another study providing evidence for a genetic cause for homosexuality was released today. It is all over the news, but here is one write up:

[quote]Boy’s odds of being gay traced to womb

Study looks anew at puzzling role of brothers’ birth order

  • Sabin Russell, Chronicle Medical Writer

Tuesday, June 27, 2006

A boy’s chances of growing up gay increase with the number of older brothers
he has, and the Canadian researcher who spotted the trend a decade ago now
believes he is closer to explaining why: It all starts in the womb.

Brock University psychologist Anthony Bogaert first reported in 1996 the
startling finding that a boy’s probability of growing up gay increases by
about one-third with each older brother in his family. It’s a subtle
phenomenon – nearly all boys even in large families still grow up straight
– but subsequent research has affirmed that the “fraternal birth order
effect” is real.

Since that discovery, researchers have been trying to figure out what might
explain it. The most likely answer, they thought, had something to do with
how younger brothers are raised – perhaps having many older brothers drives
the youngest to adopt a different sex role.

But in a study released Monday by the journal Proceedings of the National
Academy of Sciences, Bogaert unearthed another surprise. The sexual
orientation of younger brothers appears to be established before birth.

"These results provide evidence that a prenatal mechanism … affects men’s
sexual orientation development,‘’ he wrote.

Bogaert came to his latest conclusion in a study involving the birth order
and family history of 944 men – about half identifying as straight and the
other half gay or bisexual.

In one analysis, he examined the fraternal birth order effect in families in
which unrelated older brothers were added to the mix through remarriage of
divorced couples or through adoption. In short, if there was something about
growing up with a lot of older brothers that raised the chances of a younger
boy being gay, it did not show up in these blended families of stepbrothers,
half-brothers and adoptees.

Bogaert also examined families in which biologically related brothers were
raised separately by families after divorce. No matter where the boys were
raised – in small or large families – the only factor that showed the
elevated chance of growing up gay was having older biological brothers.

By ruling out child-raising factors and ruling in biological factors,
Bogaert concluded that the results "support a prenatal origin to sexual
orientation development in men.‘’

The finding is consistent with – but does not prove – a theory that some
male homosexuality may be caused by exposure in the womb to maternal
antibodies created in the mother’s blood during previous delivery of male
children.

Although the placenta provides a barrier between the blood of mother and
fetus, during childbirth there is an “inevitable” mixing of maternal and
newborn blood, wrote Michigan State University neuroscientist Marc
Breedlove, in a commentary accompanying Bogaert’s article.

The theory suggests that mothers during childbirth may develop antibodies to
proteins made by their firstborn son’s Y chromosome, and subsequent
pregnancies may stir up those antibodies in an immune reaction that affects
the development of a male fetus. "Whether this is really what is happening
… remains to be seen, but it is provocative hypothesis,‘’ said Breedlove.

So far, scientists have found no similar relationship between birth order
and the probability that a girl will grow up to be lesbian. That could be
because a female baby has the same double X chromosomes as her mother and is
less likely to provoke an immune reaction during childbirth.

Breedlove stressed in an interview Monday that these biological
“perturbations” possibly affecting male fetuses should not be confused with
disease or a birth defect. They are simply biological effects that steer
development. "It just means there is a variation,‘’ he said.

Breedlove said that he is surprised that Bogaert’s original findings about
the fraternal birth order effect are not more widely known, because the work
is so interesting and has been replicated by other researchers. One reason
may be that homosexuality occurs in about 4 to 5 percent of the population,
so the increase noted among boys with several older brothers is a small
effect involving a small percentage of all people.

Similarly surprising research has found that the fraternal birth order
effect is limited to younger boys who are right-handed. In other words, if a
younger boy has many older brothers but is left-handed, he does not have an
elevated chance of being gay.

"We never dreamed of such an association,‘’ said Breedlove, a co-author of
that study.

The right-handed exception to the fraternal birth order effect was
particularly surprising because other research had previously uncovered
another puzzler: Both men and women who are left-handed are slightly more
likely to be gay.[/quote]

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Too much salt or vitamin C will kill you??? Is that your argument for why homosexuality is a good and natural thing???

Try REALLY hard to pay attention to the point being made, and you might just succeed.

I was illustrating your logical fallacy, genius. By claiming that if everyone was gay the human race would cease to exist, and therefore homosexuality (in any degree) is wrong, you are using false logic. That is exactly like claiming that if we only ate salt or vitamin C, we would all die, and therefore salt and vitamin C (in any degree) is unhealthy.

Again, welcome to Logic 101.[/quote]

You mean “gay logic,” don’t you? In fact, I will begin to refer to your method of argumentation as “gaylogic” from here on in.

Anyway, I think you have just our point once again! You seem to link the willful ingesting of Vitamin C or salt to the exclusion of everything else with being a sodomite (oh, sorry, you know – gay…).

So in gaylogic, since nobody would ever do that, the excellent logical argument that if everyone were gay there would be no people is false.

Well, let’s see…

Since you link something that is a willful act such as deciding to only eat salt or Vitamin C with being gay, you are saying that being gay is a choice then, right? After all, nobody would “be born” with an appetite for only Vitamin C or salt, now would they? Of course not?

In fact, if anyone would be eating just salt or Vitamin C, all of us would look at them and say, “man, that is really abnormal – that person is a mental case!”

So which is it, my friend? Is being gay a choice, and therefore it can be stopped by not doing the sin, or are you born with it as you claim. If the latter, then the 100% gay argument is a very good one, because the logical conclusion to everyone being born that way would be the death of the human race. Actually, the argument does work even if it is a choice – which we all know it is. If everyone made that choice at the same time, again – no human race.

See? Simple logic will always trump gaylogic.

YOur move…

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Too much salt or vitamin C will kill you??? Is that your argument for why homosexuality is a good and natural thing???

Try REALLY hard to pay attention to the point being made, and you might just succeed.[/quote]

The same could be said of you.

Now don’t get fed up with the thread yet. We have several pages to go before we hit 100.

[quote]By claiming that if everyone was gay the human race would cease to exist, and therefore homosexuality (in any degree) is wrong, you are using false logic.

That is exactly like claiming that if we only ate salt or vitamin C, we would all die, and therefore salt and vitamin C (in any degree) is unhealthy.

Again, welcome to Logic 101.[/quote]

Boy…I don’t know if I would keep up that whole “logic argument” you have created here.

Logic demands that any sane human would not take a chance of having anal sex. The CDC says there is no safe way to have anal sex.

But you do it anyway?

That’s not logical…

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
I don’t have time to rebuke all of the entities on your list, but I don’t need to. Any inteligent person can see that you are just throwing a list together to make it look like you have support.

Nice try, but you’ve obviously not kept up with the thread. I’ve provided direct quotes from these organizations. Here are a few since you apparently missed them earlier. Are you actually going to read them, or are you going to bury your head in the sand again like a fundamentalist bigot pushing a religious agenda?

You can claim that some of these organizations (like the APA) are just being “politically correct”, but if you really expect people to believe that highly respected organizations like the American Medical Association fall into that camp, you are an idiot (or think others are).

The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, [b]have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

The above joint statement was made by the following highly respected medical, educational, and mental health organizations:

American Academy of Pediatrics
American Counseling Association
American Association of School Administrators
American Federation of Teachers
American Psychological Association
American School Health Association
Interfaith Alliance Foundation
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Social Workers
National Education Association

These same organizations reviewed all the evidence on homosexuality and concluded:

No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful

The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on Homosexuality and Adolescence states:
Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.

The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”

According to the American Medical Association:
Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an un-accepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians.

American Psychological Association:

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?
No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.

National Association of Social Workers:
…health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people’s sexual orientation through ‘reparative therapy’ and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.

In 1998-MAR, the Governing Council of the American Counseling Association (ACA) approved a motion that the association:

…opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based in ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender orientation.[/quote]

I have read all of this before. But, you still have to remember that homosexuality is and action based off of a CHOICE!

The organizations you cite previously regarded the act as a choice and later changed their stance. There must be a reason. Either hard facts exist that show it is innate, or else they have been persuaded to change their opinion due to an outside force. The absence of hard evidence indicates that other factors influenced this reversal of stance.

You are very selfish. You will do whatever you can do to justify your own choices. You are no different than the alcoholic who defends his alcohol abuse by crying “I am born this way”. Fortunately, most of America is far too bright to fall for your scheme.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Is being gay a choice, and therefore it can be stopped by not doing the sin, or are you born with it as you claim. If the latter, then the 100% gay argument is a very good one, because the logical conclusion to everyone being born that way would be the death of the human race.[/quote]

Do they put brain poison in your communion water or something? I swear, you fundamentalists would be absolutely wiped by any kind of objective discussion in a philosophy or debate class. I’m not just saying this as an insult…I’m genuinely boggled by the lack of reasoning ability here.

Let me help you out. If homosexuality were genetic, obviously the proposed scenario (i.e., where 100% of the population is gay) would be IMPOSSIBLE and the point is therefore irrelevant. Think about it, genius.

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
You aren’t asking for dignity and respect. I can and will give you that. You are asking for special rights.

Special rights would be giving someone a right which others don’t enjoy. Equal rights would be giving someone the same right that others enjoy.
[/quote]

Just so we are on the same wavelength, I am now imparting the right to marry a woman to you. There. Now we have the same rights.

Happy now?!

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

forlife wrote:

terribleivan wrote:
Too much salt or vitamin C will kill you??? Is that your argument for why homosexuality is a good and natural thing???

Try REALLY hard to pay attention to the point being made, and you might just succeed.

I was illustrating your logical fallacy, genius. By claiming that if everyone was gay the human race would cease to exist, and therefore homosexuality (in any degree) is wrong, you are using false logic. That is exactly like claiming that if we only ate salt or vitamin C, we would all die, and therefore salt and vitamin C (in any degree) is unhealthy.

Again, welcome to Logic 101.

You mean “gay logic,” don’t you? In fact, I will begin to refer to your method of argumentation as “gaylogic” from here on in.

Anyway, I think you have just our point once again! You seem to link the willful ingesting of Vitamin C or salt to the exclusion of everything else with being a sodomite (oh, sorry, you know – gay…).

So in gaylogic, since nobody would ever do that, the excellent logical argument that if everyone were gay there would be no people is false.

Well, let’s see…

Since you link something that is a willful act such as deciding to only eat salt or Vitamin C with being gay, you are saying that being gay is a choice then, right? After all, nobody would “be born” with an appetite for only Vitamin C or salt, now would they? Of course not?

In fact, if anyone would be eating just salt or Vitamin C, all of us would look at them and say, “man, that is really abnormal – that person is a mental case!”

So which is it, my friend? Is being gay a choice, and therefore it can be stopped by not doing the sin, or are you born with it as you claim. If the latter, then the 100% gay argument is a very good one, because the logical conclusion to everyone being born that way would be the death of the human race. Actually, the argument does work even if it is a choice – which we all know it is. If everyone made that choice at the same time, again – no human race.

See? Simple logic will always trump gaylogic.

YOur move…[/quote]

Very well said Steveo. We have just determined that forlife is either intentionally being deceptive to rationalize his lifestyle choice, or that he is a fool.

gaylogic - LOL. Very fitting term.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Yet another study providing evidence for a genetic cause for homosexuality was released [/quote]

And that proves what?

None of that proves that homosexuality is genetic!

Rather there is some very compelling data which demonstrates homosexuality NOT to be genetic.

Open your mind and read this:

If Not Genes,
Then What Causes Homosexuality?

Regent University’s Law Review for Spring, 2002, is entirely devoted to a discussion of various aspects of homosexuality, including the origins and causes of homosexual behaviors. The Law Review includes a study, " Homosexuality: Innate and Immutable?" by Dr. A. Dean Byrd and Stony Olsen.

After discussing the lack of evidence on the genetic origins of homosexuality, Dr. Byrd and his associate detail the various environmental factors that can lead a person into a homosexual lifestyle.

Gender Confusion: Dr. George Rekers, an expert on Gender Identity Disorders, is author of dozens of scholarly research papers on homosexuality and wrote Growing Up Straight: What Every Family Should Know About Homosexuality in 1982. He is also editor of Handbook of Child and Adolescent Sexual Problems, published in 1995. Dr. Rekers stated in 1995, that

"Gender nonconformity in childhood may be the single common observable factor associated with homosexuality.

(READ THIS IF NOTHING ELSE):

Some of the typical childhood factors leading to homosexuality are: feeling of being different from other children; perception of father as being distant, uninvolved and unapproving; perception of mother being too close, too involved; diminished or distorted masculinity or femininity; premature introduction to sexuality; and gender confusion.

(IT SEEMS THAT MOST HOMOSEXUALS FALL INTO ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES)

Failure To Internalize Maleness: Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality has written: “Homosexuality is a developmental problem that is almost always the result of problems in family relationships, particularly between father and son. As a result of failure with father, the boy does not fully internalize male gender identity, and develops homosexuality. This is the most commonly seen clinical model.”

Dr. George Rekers, writing in Growing Up Straight, observes: “Many studies of homosexual patients as well as of nonpatient homosexuals have established a classic pattern of background family relations. The most frequent family pattern reported from the male homosexuals includes a binding, intimate mother in combination with a hostile, detached father.”

Sexual Abuse By Same-Sex Predator: In studies conducted by Diana Shrier and Robert Johnson in 1985 and 1988, males who had been sexually abused as children were almost seven times as likely as non-molested boys to become homosexuals.

Dr. Gregory Dickson recently completed a doctoral dissertation on the pattern of relationships between mothers and their male homosexual sons. His paper is entitled: “An Empirical Study of the Mother/Son Dyad in Relation to the Development of Adult Male Homosexuality: An Object Relations Perspective.”

Dr. Dickson’s study is reviewed on the NARTH web site. His study sheds new light on the relationship between early childhood sexual abuse and a child’s later involvement in homosexual behaviors. According to Dickson, an alarming 49% of homosexuals surveyed had been molested compared to less than 2% of heterosexuals.

His study affirms previous findings of Dr. David Finkelhor (1984), which found that boys victimized by older men were four times more likely to be currently involved in homosexual behaviors than were non-victims. As Finkelhor observed: “It may be common for a boy who has been involved in an experience with an older man to label himself as homosexual (1) because he has had a homosexual experience and (2) because he was found to be sexually attractive by a man. Once he labels himself homosexual, the boy may begin to behave consistently with the role and gravitate toward homosexual activity.” (Child Sexual Abuse: New Theory and Research, New York: The Free Press, 1984).

Dr. Dickson’s study suggests that sexual abuse should be considered in evaluating the factors that contribute to the development of adult homosexual behaviors. Dickson writes: “An experience of sexual abuse could possibly contribute to the sexualizing of the unmet needs for male affection, attention, and connection.”

Dr. Dickson continues: “Given the relational deficits [with his mother] experienced by the male child, it is also possible that the molestation, as devastating as it may have been emotionally, simultaneously may be experienced by some of the boys as their first form of adult male affection, as well as something relational that is not shared in common with his mother.”

Counselor Dr. Robert Hicks, author of The Masculine Journey, has written: “?In counseling gay men for twenty years, I have not had one yet whom I would say had a normative childhood or normative adolescent development in the sexual arena. More often than not I have found stories of abusive, alcoholic, or absent (physically and emotionally) fathers: stories of incest or first experiences of sex forced upon them by older brothers, neighborhood men, or even friends. I sometimes find these men have had early exposure to pornography?.”

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Too much salt or vitamin C will kill you??? Is that your argument for why homosexuality is a good and natural thing???

Try REALLY hard to pay attention to the point being made, and you might just succeed.

I was illustrating your logical fallacy, genius. By claiming that if everyone was gay the human race would cease to exist, and therefore homosexuality (in any degree) is wrong, you are using false logic. That is exactly like claiming that if we only ate salt or vitamin C, we would all die, and therefore salt and vitamin C (in any degree) is unhealthy.

Again, welcome to Logic 101.

I will begin to refer to your method of argumentation as “gaylogic” from here on in. [/quote]

lol

:slight_smile:

Continue in your delusions…apparently nothing I present to you will make the slightest dent in your bigotry. Bigots never see themselves as such.

You can’t change the reality that EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD HAS STUDIED THE SCIENCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY, AND REACHED CONCLUSIONS THAT DIRECTLY CONTRADICT YOU.

I’m tired of trying to talk sense to self-righteous pricks that wouldn’t know logic and critical thinking if their life depended on it.

The amazing thing about all of this is that even after the lengthy discussion, you seem to actually believe that you are right. Despite all the objective facts presented, and the continual pointing out of your logical fallacies, you haven’t learned a thing. Your religious beliefs have blinded you, and nobody can tell you otherwise, despite being directly and entirely contradicted by every major medical and mental health organization in the world.

Maybe the younger ones like Ivan will mature and eventually come to realize how parochial their views have been. But I have no hope for deeply entrenched bigots like Zeb. Just like the slave owners and misogynists that preceded them, they will die never knowing or acknowledging their bigotry. Good riddance, I say.

The homosexual tag line that forlife uses is addressed in this piece:

“Homosexuals can?t change ?and to suggest they try is unrealistic, even harmful.”

Again, some of the most prominent specialists in this field disagree. Dr. John Money said in his 1988 book, Gay, Straight and In Between: ?Some people do change their sexual orientation. There is absolutely no harm in trying.?

Dr. Reuben Fine, director for the New York Center for Psychoanalytic Training, said in his 1987 publication, Psychoanalytic Theory, Male and Female Homosexuality: Psychological Approaches: ?I have recently had occasion to review the result of psychotherapy with homosexuals, and been surprised by the findings. It is paradoxical that even though politically active homosexual groups deny the possibility of change, all studies from Schrenck-Notzing have found positive effects, virtually regardless of the kind of treatment used?a considerable percentage of overt homosexuals became heterosexual?. ?The misinformation spread by certain circles that ?homosexuality is untreatable by psychotherapy? does incalculable harm to thousands of men and women.?

Dr. Robert Kronemeyer , in his 1980 book, Overcoming Homosexuality: ? For those homosexuals who are unhappy with their life and find effective therapy, it is ?curable.??

?The homosexual?s real enemy is?his ignorance of the possibility that he can be helped,? said Dr. Edmund Bergler, in his book, Homosexuality: Disease or Way of Life?

?The major challenge in treating homosexuality from the point of view of the patient?s resistance has, of course, been the misconception that the disorder is innate or inborn,? wrote Charles Socarides (?Homosexuality,? the American Handbook of Psychiatry).

In 1962, Dr. Irving Bieber and his colleagues concluded: ?The therapeutic results of our study provide reason for an optimistic outlook. Many homosexuals became exclusively heterosexual in psychoanalytic treatment?. In our judgment, a heterosexual shift is a possibility for all homosexuals who are strongly motivated to change.?

Seventeen years later, Bieber stated: ? We have followed some patients for as long as ten years who have remained exclusively heterosexual."

http://www.firststone.org/articles/topics/homosexuality/can_homosexuals_change-by_sy_rogers&allan_medinger.htm

KEEP THIS IN MIND: IF IT WERE GENETIC NO ONE WOULD BE ABLE TO CHANGE!

[quote]forlife wrote:
Continue in your delusions…apparently nothing I present to you will make the slightest dent in your bigotry. Bigots never see themselves as such.

You can’t change the reality that EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD HAS STUDIED THE SCIENCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY, AND REACHED CONCLUSIONS THAT DIRECTLY CONTRADICT YOU.

I’m tired of trying to talk sense to self-righteous pricks that wouldn’t know logic and critical thinking if their life depended on it.

The amazing thing about all of this is that even after the lengthy discussion, you seem to actually believe that you are right. Despite all the objective facts presented, and the continual pointing out of your logical fallacies, you haven’t learned a thing. Your religious beliefs have blinded you, and nobody can tell you otherwise, despite being directly and entirely contradicted by every major medical and mental health organization in the world.

Maybe the younger ones like Ivan will mature and eventually come to realize how parochial their views have been. But I have no hope for deeply entrenched bigots like Zeb. Just like the slave owners and misogynists that preceded them, they will die never knowing or acknowledging their bigotry. Good riddance, I say.[/quote]

Get off it - of course I believe I am right. Why else would I try to help you.

What I think is really strange is that YOU THINK PUTTING YOUR DICK IN ANOTHER MAN’S ASS IS NORMAL!!!

And you are so blind that you refuse to accept that HARD EVIDENCE (FACTS) FROM THE CDC PROVE THAT HOMOSEXUALS SUFFER FROM ABNORMALLY HIGH RATES OF DEPRESSION AND SUICIDE.

You keep telling yourself it’s ok forlife. Fortunately the majority of the country is too smart to buy into that garbage.

[quote]forlife wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Is being gay a choice, and therefore it can be stopped by not doing the sin, or are you born with it as you claim. If the latter, then the 100% gay argument is a very good one, because the logical conclusion to everyone being born that way would be the death of the human race.

Do they put brain poison in your communion water or something? I swear, you fundamentalists would be absolutely wiped by any kind of objective discussion in a philosophy or debate class. I’m not just saying this as an insult…I’m genuinely boggled by the lack of reasoning ability here.

Let me help you out. If homosexuality were genetic, obviously the proposed scenario (i.e., where 100% of the population is gay) would be IMPOSSIBLE and the point is therefore irrelevant. Think about it, genius.

[/quote]

Wow…for someone who is supposed to be “gay,” you sure are not the life of the party. A bit nasty I’d say…

Anyway, you very conveniently avoided answering my question and defending your double-faced approach. Is or is not homosexuality genetic? If so, what gene is it on? How is it transmitted? If it is genetic, then how is it that anyone gets cured of it. There are those former gays that are no longer gay you know – many of them, in fact.

Have a look at some facts:

http://www.exodus-international.org/

How 'bout some answers instead of your gaylogic and insults this time. Both of these do your side no good…

[quote]forlife wrote:
Continue in your delusions…apparently nothing I present to you will make the slightest dent in your bigotry. Bigots never see themselves as such.

You can’t change the reality that EVERY MAJOR MEDICAL AND MENTAL HEALTH ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD HAS STUDIED THE SCIENCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY, AND REACHED CONCLUSIONS THAT DIRECTLY CONTRADICT YOU.

I’m tired of trying to talk sense to self-righteous pricks that wouldn’t know logic and critical thinking if their life depended on it.

The amazing thing about all of this is that even after the lengthy discussion, you seem to actually believe that you are right. Despite all the objective facts presented, and the continual pointing out of your logical fallacies, you haven’t learned a thing. Your religious beliefs have blinded you, and nobody can tell you otherwise, despite being directly and entirely contradicted by every major medical and mental health organization in the world.

Maybe the younger ones like Ivan will mature and eventually come to realize how parochial their views have been. But I have no hope for deeply entrenched bigots like Zeb. Just like the slave owners and misogynists that preceded them, they will die never knowing or acknowledging their bigotry. Good riddance, I say.[/quote]

Bigotry – sorry buddy, but I am no biggot. I oppose your lifestyle, but I do acknowledge that you have every right to practice it (where it is legal to do so). What I am against is YOUR insistance that I have to go along with it, fund it, and pay taxes so you and your (do you call him your husband or wife?) whatever can have benefits. See, it is all about two things:

(1) The money

(2) The approval

If you are allowed all of the benefits, then your sinful lifesytle has meaning and you delude yourself into thinking it is no longer sinful. That is gaylogic to the core.

Too bad…

Homosexuality = Sin : Yesterday, now and forever!

Overcoming Homosexuality…REAL LIFE STORIES:

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
forlife wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Is being gay a choice, and therefore it can be stopped by not doing the sin, or are you born with it as you claim. If the latter, then the 100% gay argument is a very good one, because the logical conclusion to everyone being born that way would be the death of the human race.

Do they put brain poison in your communion water or something? I swear, you fundamentalists would be absolutely wiped by any kind of objective discussion in a philosophy or debate class. I’m not just saying this as an insult…I’m genuinely boggled by the lack of reasoning ability here.

Let me help you out. If homosexuality were genetic, obviously the proposed scenario (i.e., where 100% of the population is gay) would be IMPOSSIBLE and the point is therefore irrelevant. Think about it, genius.

Wow…for someone who is supposed to be “gay,” you sure are not the life of the party. A bit nasty I’d say…

Anyway, you very conveniently avoided answering my question and defending your double-faced approach. Is or is not homosexuality genetic? If so, what gene is it on? How is it transmitted? If it is genetic, then how is it that anyone gets cured of it. There are those former gays that are no longer gay you know – many of them, in fact.

Have a look at some facts:

http://www.exodus-international.org/

How 'bout some answers instead of your gaylogic and insults this time. Both of these do your side no good…[/quote]

He has no answers so the insults and spin-doctoring are all that he can cling to. And, I’m just waiting for the Christian bashing to come back to the forefront. It is only a matter of time.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Overcoming Homosexuality…REAL LIFE STORIES:[/quote]

This site has real life stories of real life people who left the sinful lifestyle that so much wants to become equal to the heterosexual mainstream.

If being a homosexual were genetic – the it would be impossible to be “cured.” Therefore, the experiental evidence points directly to the FACT that gayness is a choice – a sinful and abnormal choice at that.

There is no corresponding medical or genetic evidence to point otherwise – and even if you could come up with some type of bogus study (i.e. “gaystudy”) it would fly in the face of the personal evidence given on the website that I have given.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Overcoming Homosexuality…REAL LIFE STORIES:

This site has real life stories of real life people who left the sinful lifestyle that so much wants to become equal to the heterosexual mainstream.

If being a homosexual were genetic – the it would be impossible to be “cured.” Therefore, the experiental evidence points directly to the FACT that gayness is a choice – a sinful and abnormal choice at that.

There is no corresponding medical or genetic evidence to point otherwise – and even if you could come up with some type of bogus study (i.e. “gaystudy”) it would fly in the face of the personal evidence given on the website that I have given.
[/quote]

lol!! Nice wind up mate… As if anyone in the 21st Century would genuinely spout such retarded views though!

shit I just clicked on that link - that is hands down THE funniest site I’ve ever seen!

It’s somewhat reminiscent of the kind of propoganda films of the Third Reich - lots of shiny happy faces and wholesome images masking an extremely narrow-minded, pernicious idealogy.

[quote]juninho wrote:
shit I just clicked on that link - that is hands down THE funniest site I’ve ever seen!

It’s somewhat reminiscent of the kind of propoganda films of the Third Reich - lots of shiny happy faces and wholesome images masking an extremely narrow-minded, pernicious idealogy. [/quote]

But…they came out of homosexuality. That is the point – you can try to cloud this by (once again – and it is getting pretty old) linking everything Christians are about to Hitler, Nazis, Facists, etc.

However, what you CANNOT GET AROUND is that there are supposed genetically gay people that have made the choice and have come out of, given up on, and are otherwise “cured” of their homosexuality, thus PROVING that it is neither genetic nor natural.

BTU - of course these people are happy. They have the weight of their sin off of their backs and have come to know the Savior as well.