[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I don’t necessarily agree with Giterdone. I’ve seen people pull low weight with lousy, lousy form. He’s right, tho, that it gets more challenging to maintain the awesome form as the weight goes up.[/quote]
I meant anyone that has a basic understanding. Lousy form is rampant. Although, I’m not a member of the “form police”. Doing everything super strict can limit gains. You just need to know where the line is between working hard and putting yourself at risk. [/quote]
Interesting. How can having super strict form limit gains? Don’t the top athletes in the lifting sports have super strict form?
[/quote]
If by “lifting sports” you mean Olympic lifts and by “gains” you mean weight lifted, then I would agree as the O lifts (of which I do none but I have an interest) are heavily reliant on technique rather than sheer strength. Getting sloppy while jerking big weight over your head is probably a bad idea.
For muscle growth and strength gains, a little body english is fine if it lets you do more reps or let’s you add more weight. As long as you know where the safety line is. It doesn’t necessarily apply to all lifts. Loose DLs, squats or bench are a bad idea IMO. But there are tons of accessory lifts (ex. would be Kroc rows…even though most people do them incorrectly) where slow and smooth is largely a waste of time.
"But there are tons of accessory lifts (ex. would be Kroc rows…even though most people do them incorrectly) where slow and smooth is largely a waste of time. "
Really? I tend to focus on form 100% of the time, whether one of the big three lifts or my accessory work. I just feel like if I get sloppy, I’m not really working what I’m trying to work in an efficient manner.
The term “body English.” This is not a term I’m familiar with. Maybe I’ve been living under a rock?
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
"But there are tons of accessory lifts (ex. would be Kroc rows…even though most people do them incorrectly) where slow and smooth is largely a waste of time. "
Really? I tend to focus on form 100% of the time, whether one of the big three lifts or my accessory work. I just feel like if I get sloppy, I’m not really working what I’m trying to work in an efficient manner.
The term “body English.” This is not a term I’m familiar with. Maybe I’ve been living under a rock?[/quote]
If he had a still upper body he wouldn’t be able to move nearly the weight. And he is still focusing on retracting his scapula at the top. As long as you are “cheating” to make it harder not easier, then it is all good.
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
I don’t necessarily agree with Giterdone. I’ve seen people pull low weight with lousy, lousy form. He’s right, tho, that it gets more challenging to maintain the awesome form as the weight goes up.[/quote]
I meant anyone that has a basic understanding. Lousy form is rampant. Although, I’m not a member of the “form police”. Doing everything super strict can limit gains. You just need to know where the line is between working hard and putting yourself at risk. [/quote]
Interesting. How can having super strict form limit gains? Don’t the top athletes in the lifting sports have super strict form?
[/quote]
If by “lifting sports” you mean Olympic lifts and by “gains” you mean weight lifted, then I would agree as the O lifts (of which I do none but I have an interest) are heavily reliant on technique rather than sheer strength. Getting sloppy while jerking big weight over your head is probably a bad idea.
For muscle growth and strength gains, a little body english is fine if it lets you do more reps or let’s you add more weight. As long as you know where the safety line is. It doesn’t necessarily apply to all lifts. Loose DLs, squats or bench are a bad idea IMO.[/quote] Since the lift at hand was a romanian DL, it stands to reason that cheating on form wouldn’t be a a good idea period. [quote] But there are tons of accessory lifts (ex. would be Kroc rows…even though most people do them incorrectly) where slow and smooth is largely a waste of time.
[/quote] It’s all a matter of what you’re trying to accomplish. If you want to be able to lift more weight for an intant with a slightly bigger shoulder, then “cheating” on a kroc row makes sense, but if you want to be able to maintain shoulder posture under heavy weight for long periods of time, jerking around on a kroc row wouldn’t help.
Louie Simmons himself said even the best powerlifters have imperfect form during a max attempt. So I wouldn’t be worried about your form TOO much during a heavy deadlift, just make sure your lower back is locked in place. Some rounding of the shoulders is inevitable if you want to push the weights.
However in Olympic lifting it’s a different story.
Here’s how I see it: when you’re on the platform (in powerlifting), you do what you gotta do to lift the weight. But when you’re training, there’s no point in cheating the reps by throwing your form. Otherwise, you’re not really strengthening the muscle you’re trying to strengthen. It’s like people who rock back and forth when they’re doing curls or use up-and-down momentum to do lat pulldowns. Are the biceps/lats really getting stronger here?
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
Here’s how I see it: when you’re on the platform (in powerlifting), you do what you gotta do to lift the weight. But when you’re training, there’s no point in cheating the reps by throwing your form. Otherwise, you’re not really strengthening the muscle you’re trying to strengthen. It’s like people who rock back and forth when they’re doing curls or use up-and-down momentum to do lat pulldowns. Are the biceps/lats really getting stronger here?[/quote]
If you skip ahead to about 8 minutes or so you will see his form for lat pulldowns. There is a certain amount of momentum but it is controlled and is done to make the set harder, not easier. Granted, some do it because they don’t know any better, or their strength sucks and they are compensating, or they watched videos like this but don’t really know what is going on.
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
Here’s how I see it: when you’re on the platform (in powerlifting), you do what you gotta do to lift the weight. But when you’re training, there’s no point in cheating the reps by throwing your form. Otherwise, you’re not really strengthening the muscle you’re trying to strengthen. It’s like people who rock back and forth when they’re doing curls or use up-and-down momentum to do lat pulldowns. Are the biceps/lats really getting stronger here?[/quote]
If you skip ahead to about 8 minutes or so you will see his form for lat pulldowns. There is a certain amount of momentum but it is controlled and is done to make the set harder, not easier. Granted, some do it because they don’t know any better, or their strength sucks and they are compensating, or they watched videos like this but don’t really know what is going on.
At about 5 minutes in or so you can see the BB row form. Not super strict, focus on explosive reps, and moving real weight. Slow, controlled reps so you can feel the muscle working can have their place (rehab) but, generally, it hampers physique or strength progress because the stimulus is just not high enough. Even if you don’t want to be a top level bodybuilder or powerlifter, if you train like they do then progress will come sooner.
And, it doesn’t mean your movements need to look just like his. Body mechanics are different and so are comfort levels. In general, the folks I see at gyms month-in and month-out, year-in and year-out that focus too intently on form, rather than intensity and lifting progressively more weight, make the least progress. Sometimes the best thing to do is to put down the DBs you just picked up, grab the heavier DBs sitting beside them and just do it.
But, if things are moving in the right direction for you at the pace you want then don’t change a thing.
Okay, here’s another way of putting it. Why wouldn’t you do soley isometric exercises to gain overall strength?[/quote]
Not sure I’m following your question as it relates to Kroc rows. [/quote]
Don’t worry. It does. I’m just making sure we’re coming from the same understanding, and I’m doing that by seeing what your answer to the question regarding isometric exercises is.
Okay, here’s another way of putting it. Why wouldn’t you do soley isometric exercises to gain overall strength?[/quote]
Not sure I’m following your question as it relates to Kroc rows. [/quote]
Don’t worry. It does. I’m just making sure we’re coming from the same understanding, and I’m doing that by seeing what your answer to the question regarding isometric exercises is.
[/quote]
Eric Heiden once did a wall sit for an hour. Can’t imagine the pain.
Isometrics can work for strength at the particular joint angle being trained.
I guess my neurosis with form derives from the fact that my body may not be as forgiving as some given the fact that I’m not so young (44) and have a very slight build.
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
A wall sit for one hour. Oh my.
I guess my neurosis with form derives from the fact that my body may not be as forgiving as some given the fact that I’m not so young (44) and have a very slight build.
Thanks for the banter, Giterdone and Oleena.[/quote]
I understand the body being less forgiving…I am also 44. And, I have no particular issue with perfect form (I suppose defined as strict adherence to the exercise with little extraneous movement) as long as there is a real focus on moving weight and making progress. But, being overly concerned with being super strict can be a hurdle to progress.
I can’t post the vid but go to pages 16 and 18. Molly doing DB rows / Kroc rows whatever you want to call them.
Anyway, didn’t mean to clutter the thread. Good training everybody.
Okay, here’s another way of putting it. Why wouldn’t you do soley isometric exercises to gain overall strength?[/quote]
Not sure I’m following your question as it relates to Kroc rows. [/quote]
Don’t worry. It does. I’m just making sure we’re coming from the same understanding, and I’m doing that by seeing what your answer to the question regarding isometric exercises is.
[/quote]
Eric Heiden once did a wall sit for an hour. Can’t imagine the pain.
Isometrics can work for strength at the particular joint angle being trained.[/quote]
I wonder if he came close to crying. Anyway, my point about using momentum, loosing form, and jerking to achieve more weight on an exercise is that, like an isometric exercise, it trains strength specific only to the muscles actually hit and the line of motion followed, and because a slightly different form was used, with different muscles initiating the “jerk” for momentum, it’s training the muscles differently than the same exercise where you don’t jerk. It’s not a bad thing, but you can’t say it’s better than the original because it’s just different. For example, a kipping pullup is definitely not working the same muscles as a regular pullup, although you’d be able to do more weight on it and essentially be using the same muscles at the top.
