[quote]AlphaStar wrote:
JK what kind of results have you had from the Vinpo and huperzine so far? I just ordered exactly that today.
_AS[/quote]
sorry I never answered this. I do think I feel a bit more alert and possibly able to focus a better when I try. However, everything I’ve read tells me that you need to give it some time before you can expect anything really noticeable. Ask me again in a couple of weeks. Did you start? If you did, do you have anything to share?
Check out Orexin
It’d be interesting to have access to a synthetic version of this.
[quote]roweski wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
And here’s another interesting little study:
Which shows that both moda and amphet both can be potentiated ion their effects by pretreatment with yohimbine.
Bushy
Are you trying to tell me, moda + HRX = me fixating/working on coursework longer?
I’m sold.[/quote]
Now this is interesting.
I have noticed less of an effect from adara since I stopped taking HOT-ROX, but assumed it was simply due to building a tolerance.
Time for some expirementation!
Interesting reports of Modafinil :
Hey guys,
So after reading this entire thread - wow! - I have decided on the following daily cocktail:
vinpocetine
centrophenoxine
with the addition of either piracetam, aniracetam, or oxiracetam. Can someone here recommend one to add? I’m thinking the aniracetam - what I’ve read about it seems really good, but I didn’t see much personal commentary on it in particular in this thread.
About me: used to stimulants, big coffee drinker, and primarily using nootropics to restore damage I’d done in my early twenties and to assist in writing/reading/recollection.
Thanks in advance! Best thread ever.
Well, my main reason for using the centro is because my memory is nowhere NEAR what it used to be: my memory was always my strongest asset in school; I could memorize things quickly and perfectly. Now, after years of completely and utterly abusing my body/mind through stupid substances, it is one of my weakest points.
As far as dosing, I think I would start out at 500-1000 mg, twice a day. I don’t know, however, how long I should use it for. Since you asked, I assume that it’s not meant to be a “staple” supplement - one used regularly? Do you have any suggestions? (As I would LOVE your advice.)
I will start on the anira then. I may buy some oxi, too. The thing is, I’m a teacher, and the supposed “crash” might be disastrous to 8 hour days! Thanks again.
Awesome. Thanks man. I think I’ll probably go the same route as you, since you said your experience was good.
One more quick question/thought:
I remember(surpise!) reading about centro and that it supposedly increased choline levels in the body. Therefore, am I right in assuming I wouldn’t need additional choline while taking it? Once I finish the centro, I believe I WILL need it since I’ll be taking a racetam as well.
Is this misguided?
Food for thought:
"There are quite a number of nootropic drugs in which there are
well-constructed studies showing a significant mental performance
increase for a short time in healthy people (for a review, see
the Smart Drugs books by Ward Dean and John Morgenthaler). None
of these positive studies, however, are very long-term ones.
There is much better evidence for nootropics as short term aids
for special occasions (eg., final exams). Don’t expect to take
them every day and get the same benefit.
Why all this should be the case makes sense, if you think
about the nootropics you are familiar with, by use or reputation
(caffeine, speed, cocaine)-- and if you also think about
evolution, and about the way the brain works. If it was easy to
increase human intelligence all the time by dumping some simple
chemical onto the brain, evolution would figured that easy
solution out, and would already have made arrangements to do it
(there aren’t too many evolutionary advantages in having the same
number of neurons, but being relatively stupider all the time).
The problem, however, is apparently that “intelligence” is many
different things and brain functions, and some are more valuable
to goose than others, at different times. Also, all these
endogenous chemicals have side effects. Thus, evolution arranges
to dump them on the brain only in short bursts, and selectively,
when needed, as determined by the situation. That arrangement,
I believe, is the only thing which allows the so-called
“nootropics” to work at all."
…
FINALLY, ALL THESE EFFECTS OF NOOTROPICS ARE SHORT-LIVED,
since the brain is an adaptive organ, and is not meant to be
goosed by the autonomics in a big way all the time. Thus, if you
use these drugs every day, like caffeine or like amphetamine,
pretty soon you develop tolerance and need the drug to get back
to normal. If you don’t have the drug after that, you actually
function subnormally until you “kick the habit.” If it’s a
short-lived drug, you use it in rapid cycles. That’s not much
good for you, so be wise. Perhaps you’ve been there with
caffeine, a very typical nootropic. Note also that nicotine is a
powerful nootropic-- this one a cholinergic (people wouldn’t use
the stuff if it didn’t do SOMETHING for them). Aside from
smoking and coffee, I’ve seen nootropic enthusiasts who spent the
whole day popping pills just to function. Just like smoking,
this was all legal, but it didn’t look like much fun. And of
course, the pill thing is expensive as hell, even if it has no
adverse long term health effects (which I cannot swear to, in the
case of all these drugs, either)"
So guys, what are your thoughts on this? Can any long-term users confirm this, or do you disagree? This little article I found has not discouraged me from trying the nootropics, but it makes me think hard about a daily “cocktail.” (I always like to err on the side of caution.)
Oh, and here is the link to the full article:
http://yarchive.net/med/nootropics.html
A couple of questions for you dharmabum31:
What is the timeline for “short-term”? Are we looking at days or weeks?
Is there any indication that using these can train the body to kick out more of the beneficial chemicals by insinuating a need? For example, going on and off of the nootropics training the receptors similar to an SSRI?
I have been using Piracetam non-stop since October, and it seems to help in a long term fashion. I use Oxiracetam for a couple weeks and take a break for a couple more, keeping an emphasis to use it when most beneficial (high stress workloads or classes).
Bushy, if you have any input on these questions, I’d greatly appreciate your feedback.
The article has solid points, and I also believe that pushing the mind hard with nootropics and in a fashion train it to go harder on it’s own eventually without the chemical assistance such as when a person is experienced with meditation or other high-demand mental tasks
When I mentioned that I wanted to do this short term, I meant the stack I previously posted, including the centro. By short term, I mean up to a couple months. The purpose would be to “clean out” the deposits left in the past from abuse.
Afterwards, I would probably like to experiment with the same type dosing schedule as you. It seems rational, or at least safe, to assume that less is better. The regular piracetam with the occasional oxiracetam doesn’t seem harmful, at least from what I’ve researched so far. That is, considering if you were to go off it, you would not “need” the chemicals to function normally.
And just to throw this out there, I abandoned the idea of the stack I mentioned. I bought “brain octane,” and will more than likely try it for a week, then add in centro. I will post the results when I feel I have a good grasp of them.
But for me to answer your other question would be foolish - I don’t feel knowledgeable enough to even make an educated guess. I’ll wait for Bushy to chime in on that one! =)
I picked up the centro because of all the recreational abuse I did in the past, man I wish I didn’t do all that crap!
I’m interested in hearing what others think about this idea of “needing” to take any of these substances the way most people “need” their coffee in the am. Bushy what happened to the guy from the 1st couple of pages, Modok was his name I think. He was a pharmacist or maybe a pharmacy student, I forget. Anyway he would probably have some insight here.
I have a question for you for bushy about choline. What type do you take and at what time of day? does it need to be divided doses?
thanks
Hey JK44,
I’m no Bushy, but I’ll offer what I can. Actually, Bushy says this on the subject:
“Choline citrate or bitartrate. I use citrate. Seems OK, but not as good as ensuring you get quality deep sleep with somethinglike ZMA, melatonin and 5HTP.”
On the same page, someone else mentions you should take at least 1 gram a day to get a benefit from any racetams you’re taking. Now, to my knowledge you should take it whenever you take another nootropic - so if you take, say, piracetam twice a day, you would divide your dose of choline twice a day as well.
Go back to page 25 of this thread - that’s where the guys were discussing it. And check out other forums - these links are for everybody -
Loads of info.
So you say you picked up some centro, would you mind reporting back on how you’re liking it so far, what you’re noticing, etc.??
Bump
If anyone’s interested, I noticed Ampakine CX516 available on a research chem site, and placed an “ah . . .what the hell” order.
Updates when it arrives.
[quote]roweski wrote:
How are you going to be dosing it, and are you injecting sub or im?
-Rowesk[/quote]
All the studies I read seemed to indicate that it was in administered in capsule form. One of them expressly mentioned sugar pills as the placebo, but if I can inject it . . .hmm.
After some poking around (Ha!) it seems that human trials used capsules, the rat trials used injections. I focused mainly on the human trials when looking for studies.
I’ll start with oral doses, then try injections. The rats were injected intraperitoneally, which I don’t feel too keen about, and I think subq would yield a closer effect to the rats. Then IM, or even IV if I feel like there might be any benefit to it.
I’ll have to buy some more stuff (like cyclodextrin) if I go with injections, although this would be a cool justification to buy a sonicator.
As for dosage, from Cortexpharm.com -
[quote] Dr. Stoll explained that data based on a recently completed primate study by Dr. Sam Deadwyler, Professor and Vice Chairman of the Department of Physiology and Pharmacology at Wake Forest School of Medicine, suggests that CX516 did not show any significant activity in their primate behavioral model until the dose exceeded 20 mg/Kg. The MCI study was conducted at doses of approximately 12 mg/Kg. In a primate sleep deprivation study (to be published), Dr. Deadwyler required doses of 40 mg/Kg of CX516 to maximize short-term memory recall in a delayed match to sample task. This new primate data may suggest that at least three or four doses of 2000 mg of CX516, rather than the 900 mg dose administered to the MCI patients, would have been necessary for a significant improvement.
Similarly, a recent clinical study that tested the ability of CX516 to reverse the effects of sleep deprivation in young healthy adult male volunteers, performed at the Medical University of South Carolina by Dr. Mark George, found no significant effects on sleep deprivation at doses below 30 mg/Kg. However, in another soon-to-be published preclinical study by Dr. Deadwyler, it would appear that with CX717, a single dose of 0.5 to 1.5 mg/Kg may be sufficient to produce an optimal response on short term memory, which would be roughly 75-100 mg per day in an elderly patient, most likely as a single dose.[/quote]
I’ll start with 500 mg, then 1 g, then 1.5 g. Since I’m not looking for a constant improvement, just a “spike” in performance. I see no need for multiple daily doses, but that could change. What I’m hoping is for a quick, noticeable mental boost that would be useful for an immediate task, like a test.
Also since CX516 only has a half-life of one hour, this is going to be tricky. Oh well, onward for science!