Brain Function Boosters

[quote]InTheZone wrote:
Am leaving oxi out of the dose today. Don’t have much of that left, and frankly kind of glad. It doesn’t seem to help in any beneficial way besides a very slight stim effect, which I don’t need.

                see ya later,
                   ToneBone[/quote]

Really TB? I’m using a lot of oxi w/vinpo (end of year exams in 11 days - aaargh) and I find it amazing. I don’t really feel it working as such, but days later I find myself knowing the exact page of some random fact in some random book, which I only skimmed through.

I do find I can only work constantly for maybe 1-2hrs though on oxi, because after cramming the info in like that I need a long break for it to “sink in”. So I kinda have to apply HIT principles to my revision, lol.

I only ask because your experience with oxi makes me wonder if I’m just playing around with softcore stuff and I’m missing out…

I’m starting piracetam this week. I’m thinking 2g a day.

I also picked up some alpha GPC and will probably dose that at 1g a day starting in a week or two.

May add vinpo in a while depending on how pira and alpha hit me.

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
InTheZone wrote:
Am leaving oxi out of the dose today. Don’t have much of that left, and frankly kind of glad. It doesn’t seem to help in any beneficial way besides a very slight stim effect, which I don’t need.

                see ya later,
                   ToneBone

Really TB? I’m using a lot of oxi w/vinpo (end of year exams in 11 days - aaargh) and I find it amazing. I don’t really feel it working as such, but days later I find myself knowing the exact page of some random fact in some random book, which I only skimmed through.

I do find I can only work constantly for maybe 1-2hrs though on oxi, because after cramming the info in like that I need a long break for it to “sink in”. So I kinda have to apply HIT principles to my revision, lol.

I only ask because your experience with oxi makes me wonder if I’m just playing around with softcore stuff and I’m missing out…

[/quote]
I’ll say this, at the onset of taking oxi, I felt like you are saying, after some time on it,(almost out of the 50g tub), I was feeling it might have been contributing to a sypathetic nervous system response. And although it was nothing major, it was slightly irritating.

 Kind of the slightly "wired" feeling, not very much, but distracting during class. So, I've been droppin it. Now I was taking 900mg at a pop, and I believe half that is the standard, so there you go, maybe I need to try half again as when I started. 

            Always good to see ya bud. Hope all the training is going great. I'm on a delt mend currently and trying to get in a new push/pull 3days a week till semester ends. No more ant/side delt work, only rear and synergistics deep in the back to counteract the tightness and pulling on the anterior delt on one side. Wish me luck bro.

                   ToneBone

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
I’m starting piracetam this week. I’m thinking 2g a day.

I also picked up some alpha GPC and will probably dose that at 1g a day starting in a week or two.

May add vinpo in a while depending on how pira and alpha hit me.[/quote]

       Sounds like a decent combo, keep us in on the loop bro. I heard good/bad on piracetam, so would be interesting to hear how it goes for you.

                   ToneBone

Bushy,
What was your take on the Centrophenoxine???
Worth stacking with it or not at all?

Last Question before i might be able to contribute to this thread!

thanks!

[quote]InTheZone wrote:
I’ll say this, at the onset of taking oxi, I felt like you are saying, after some time on it,(almost out of the 50g tub), I was feeling it might have been contributing to a sypathetic nervous system response. And although it was nothing major, it was slightly irritating.

 Kind of the slightly "wired" feeling, not very much, but distracting during class. So, I've been droppin it. Now I was taking 900mg at a pop, and I believe half that is the standard, so there you go, maybe I need to try half again as when I started. 

            Always good to see ya bud. Hope all the training is going great. I'm on a delt mend currently and trying to get in a new push/pull 3days a week till semester ends. No more ant/side delt work, only rear and synergistics deep in the back to counteract the tightness and pulling on the anterior delt on one side. Wish me luck bro.

                   ToneBone

[/quote]

900mg! I suppose that is the recommended dose (if you have the BN tubs). I’m using Bushy’s “sipping” idea with 500mg - however I probably sip this all down in 30mins. I’ve tried popping 2000mg all at once (to see if I would become a supergenius) and it made me very tired and my eyes began to itch, so I didn’t do that again, lol.

Regarding your anterior delt problem;

I’m probably preaching to the choir here - but I found that after a debilitating anterior delt shot, decline close grip bench took my delts almost entirely out of the movement. I had no pain/loss of function whatsoever whilst doing this movement. I knew this should be the case - but I was shocked by the extent that the delts were left behind.

I am however definitely very reliant on my triceps for benching, so this may not work for everyone. Still, it’s just a thought - and it may possibly allow you some light pushing if that’s what you fancy.

And of course, good luck bro :wink:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Dave, this is exactly the kind of cognitive effect I got off oxi. I would read for about an hour, then snooze for same time, then read again.

But I just didn’t like the sides, so I went and got some aniracetam, and to be honest, I don’t find it as effective, though it’s far more pleasant to take.

To be honest though, I’m more interested in my current GH/slin experiment than in some nootropics, especially as I’m not finding the course particularly challenging.

Good luck with your exams mate.

Bushy[/quote]

I’m following your GH thread, it looks like it’ll be very informative, and of course good for future reference… I love all of these studies - they keep the steroids section alive!

Oxi:

I must admit on higher doses (this close to exams I am topping up all day long) my eyes can feel a bit odd. But as for tachycardia, palpitations etc I’ve never got owt.

I’ve read a lot about aniracetam and it sounds more sensible to me. Unfortunately customs charges have been getting out of hand recently (as you may recall), so BN is out for me for a while. Still, on the bright side - oxi complements my “natural” studying technique perfectly!

Thanks for the good luck wishes geeza, I might be needing some!

[quote]Dave_ wrote:
InTheZone wrote:
I’ll say this, at the onset of taking oxi, I felt like you are saying, after some time on it,(almost out of the 50g tub), I was feeling it might have been contributing to a sypathetic nervous system response. And although it was nothing major, it was slightly irritating.

 Kind of the slightly "wired" feeling, not very much, but distracting during class. So, I've been droppin it. Now I was taking 900mg at a pop, and I believe half that is the standard, so there you go, maybe I need to try half again as when I started. 

            Always good to see ya bud. Hope all the training is going great. I'm on a delt mend currently and trying to get in a new push/pull 3days a week till semester ends. No more ant/side delt work, only rear and synergistics deep in the back to counteract the tightness and pulling on the anterior delt on one side. Wish me luck bro.

                   ToneBone

900mg! I suppose that is the recommended dose (if you have the BN tubs). I’m using Bushy’s “sipping” idea with 500mg - however I probably sip this all down in 30mins. I’ve tried popping 2000mg all at once (to see if I would become a supergenius) and it made me very tired and my eyes began to itch, so I didn’t do that again, lol.

Regarding your anterior delt problem;

I’m probably preaching to the choir here - but I found that after a debilitating anterior delt shot, decline close grip bench took my delts almost entirely out of the movement. I had no pain/loss of function whatsoever whilst doing this movement. I knew this should be the case - but I was shocked by the extent that the delts were left behind.

I am however definitely very reliant on my triceps for benching, so this may not work for everyone. Still, it’s just a thought - and it may possibly allow you some light pushing if that’s what you fancy.

And of course, good luck bro :wink:

[/quote]
Hey thanks Dave I’ve never heard of the decline close grip isolating the delts out like that. I’ll give it a go, that would be great to get some kind of chest work in while I rehab the one delt. I was getting on really fantastic with all my workouts, especially nice was with my dips before all the shit went down. I was hitting damn near 3 full sets of 10 with 60lbs added on the belt. And they were deep and strict as you can go.
Oh well, they haven’t dropped much, I have been trying exercises one at a time to isolate what works and doesn’t work with the delt. I know the dips are going to hit that part of the delt now unfortunately, but I’ll be back quicker afterwards.

            Anyhow, gotta go and update the effects on me tonight from the moda. see ya Dave. 

                 TBN
        Moda Update:

So, before tonights class, dropped another 100 mg moda, 20mg Vinpo, and that was about it. Total for the day hit 400 which is the supposed ceiling for dosage from what I read on wilkpedia. The effects were great.

    Now, you do feel "tired" after some time on, and consecutive days on. That's how I was feeling before class, so I took another 100mg. The thing is, for as much energy you get out of it for as long as you get said energy, the "crash" if you want to call it that, is extremely mild. There is no comparison to how one feels after a day on ephedra or any other stim.

  I've already described how much different the energy is too. No comparison. Anyway off to school:

So tonight I end up feeling great in class. Another hour after I took it, I’m sitting forward in my seat and answering more questions than anyone else in the class. All other brainiacs were at a loss and I was poppin off one answer after another, jumping to read and answer critical thinking questions from the book when no one at all would volunteer.
This is amazing because as Schwarz and some of you might know I’m not usually overly confident and certainly don’t often volunteer to read during class, though I read very, very well. I just have a shy personality or self consciousness I guess. It felt simply fantastic to do that. I barely started to get the slight race to the heart rate as I began reading some of the questions, then felt that, and knocked it back down immediately and continued with a very nice and calm demeanor. It was beautiful. My friend answered a couple and continued to jibe at me in a bit of wonder at how I was saying how hard this shit was, and yet there I was recalling crap I had thought only a day or so before that I would never be able to remember. And no one else knew the shit, but there was old ToneBone going on and on keeping the former surgeon smiling and happy to see someone in the class “getting” the shit. LOL.

         So, now I'm feeling better and thinking I might pull this exam off decent after all. I took a break tonight from studying as I had a long night with lab and all too. Even in lab I was all hands on, the whole class seemed to be enjoying the extra confidence I had. Though they didn't know anything different, I sure did. It happened to be a fun lab for once, but I know the moda had me in top form. And that was truly a lot of fun. I dissected the cow eye with a razor blade and kitchen scissors exquisitely amongst a gang of other reflex exercises, and was just having a good time which I usually tend to shy away from. So it was a great night.

     I didn't feel any worse for the wear with the high end dose. Again I did 300mg this morning, and another 100mg around 5:30pm. Along with the other stuff.

      I got some Spike pills for the rest of the weekend studying. Going to try one Spike with the moda and other and see how that goes tomorrow. I have a better idea of how I'm going to cram for this thing, and with the help from the moda, Spike, and the Vinpo etc. I should do pretty good. I am not sure I'll be able to pull an A on this one, but I'm going to damn sure try to. The whole class is having a tough go with this one. And if the Spike overdoes it to any degree, I'll leave it out, though I think one will do just fine.

        Well this kids gotta hit the sack,
               goodnight now,
                ToneBone

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Todays verdict:

Centrophenoxine: good

Sulbutiamine: bad (well not so much bad as … nothing)

Bushy[/quote]

         How does the centro "feel" bushy?
                     TBN

Great to hear it’s working it’s magic for you Tone. I’ve taken stims and stuff and when I run out I don’t really think too much about it, but Moda is one of those things where you actually wonder what it’s going to be like without it. It’s not so much like stims where you feel hyper and excessively energized, but more you feel how you think you should, so it’s sort of a bummer not being on it.

Anyway, I found some really fucking cool info in an article I read today, so I’ll post that here in a min.

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
Great to hear it’s working it’s magic for you Tone. I’ve taken stims and stuff and when I run out I don’t really think too much about it, but Moda is one of those things where you actually wonder what it’s going to be like without it. It’s not so much like stims where you feel hyper and excessively energized, but more you feel how you think you should, so it’s sort of a bummer not being on it.

Anyway, I found some really fucking cool info in an article I read today, so I’ll post that here in a min.[/quote]

          Excellent. I can see that for sure. I'll be updating too after a while, got up early, had something to do, and am taking a break from it for a bit. Maybe altogether today just for a mental break from it. I will probably run a Spike and vinpo today, and toss down the moda again tomorrow straight away.

                   ciao.

Antidepressants, Exercise, Age, Even Food Intake, Affect Generation Of New Brain Cells

Nov. 9, 2007 �?? Recent research shows that the production of new brain cells may be crucial for antidepressants to be effective and that the medication’s effectiveness is strongly influenced by age. What’s more, meal frequency, type of food, and physical exercise affect the brain’s ability to manufacture these new cells.

For the first time in nonhuman primate models, scientists have documented the cause-and-effect relationship between antidepressant drugs and neurogenesis. The researchers found that the antidepressant drug fluoxetine improved the behavior of macaque monkeys with depression-like symptoms.

They also discovered that administering the drugs to normally behaving monkeys did not influence their behavior but did alter their brains by boosting neurogenesis in the hippocampus, an area involved in memory and learning.

In one study with macaque monkeys, the stimulation of neurogenesis appeared to be necessary for the treatment of depression, says Tarique Perera, MD, of Columbia University.

"Given the parallels between the monkey behavior model and human clinical depression, and the structural similarities between the macaque and human brains, we expect neurogenesis to play an equally important role in antidepressant mechanisms in humans," he says.

The Columbia University scientists induced the monkeys’ depression-like behavior by repeatedly separating the animals from their social groups. In addition, there was a control group of six monkeys that stayed in their social groups. Perera administered the antidepressant fluoxetine to three of the animals in the separated group and three animals in the control group. The remaining separated and control animals were given a placebo.

The placebo-treated separated monkeys progressively lost interest in pleasurable activities, and their social standing dropped. “These behaviors parallel elements of depression in humans,” Perera says. In contrast, the control animals’ behavior did not change. The scientists identified the reason when they subsequently examined the animals’ brain tissue.

In the hippocampus of the fluoxetine-treated monkeys in both the control and separated animals, they found many new cells. However, despite the fact that the rate of neurogenesis in their brains was higher than average, the behavior of the treated control group stayed the same. In fact, it did not differ from the behavior of the placebo-treated animals that remained in social groups.

The scientists next determined the impact of fluoxetine on brain and behavior in the absence of neurogenesis. Four animals underwent two weeks of X-ray radiation directed to the temporal lobe, a brain area that includes the hippocampus. While the dose destroyed new cells, it was low enough to spare mature neurons.

The four separated, X-ray treated animals developed depression-like symptoms despite the fact that they were being treated with fluoxetine. Subsequent analysis of the animals’ brain tissue showed that neurogenesis was not increased in these animals despite treatments. The neurogenesis levels in the treated and untreated animals did not differ.

In another animal study, conducted at the University Medical Center in Regensburg, Germany, scientists determined that the action of antidepressant therapy on neurogenesis is highly dependent on the age of the treated individual. Their study suggests that the therapeutic effects of antidepressants in elderly humans may not be mediated by neurogenesis.

The researchers studied mice in three different age groups: 100, 200, and more than 400 days old. These ages correspond roughly to young adult, adult, and elderly individuals in the human population, the scientists say.

“Paradoxically, the stimulatory activity of the antidepressant on neurogenesis was more potent in youngest animals, even if their rate of neurogenesis was already high as compared to the older mice,” says Sebastien Couillard-Despres, PhD.

Couillard-Despres and his team also showed that extended treatment with fluoxetine enhanced neurogenesis only in the youngest animals. When the scientists compared the treated and untreated animals in the two youngest age groups, they found that although neurogenesis had occurred in all of these young animals, more newly generated cells survived and developed into specialized types of neurons in the rodents that had received fluoxetine.

To mimic the long-term antidepressant drug therapy that characterizes most people with depression, the scientists treated the lab animals with fluoxetine daily at a clinically relevant dosage over six weeks.

The scientists measured the rate of generation of new brain cells, the survival rate of these cells over time, and the percentage of cells that became mature. In addition to the fluoxetine-treated animals, the study included control animals for every age group. The controls received only a placebo treatment.


Among the other factors that influence neurogenesis in the adult brain is the amount of calories consumed in the diet, according to research of Sandrine Thuret, PhD, at King’s College in London.

[b]Her laboratory also discovered that caloric intake affects learning and memory and that, independent of calorie intake, meal frequency and food content both play important roles in neurogenesis in the hippocampus. “Our cell culture data show an impressive increase of 40 percent of adult hippocampal neurogenesis upon addition of omega-3 fatty acids into the cell culture dish,” Thuret says.

In laboratory animals, Thuret found that meal frequency is more important than calorie intake in regulating adult hippocampal neurogenesis. “Indeed, adult female mice fed a calorie-restricted diet of 10 percent less than normal-fed mice did have a higher level of newborn cells in the hippocampus,” she says. But few of these new cells were neurons. In mice fed every other day–which led to a similar decrease of 10 percent of calories over two days-neurogenesis and learning abilities increased.

“Remarkably, we also showed that diet has an influence on the level of expression of genes in the brain,” Thuret says. These genes, which are critical for cognition, are not the same genes that are regulated by intermittent fasting.

Additional research on these genes may help identify the cellular and molecular mechanisms underlying the influence of food intake on neurogenesis in the adult brain and in learning and memory.[/b]

The search for neurobiological mechanisms that link nutrition, adult neurogenesis, and behavior is a new emphasis in biomedical research, prompted in part by recent findings from laboratory rodent studies indicating that a reduced calorie diet promotes healthy aging.

“It is well recognized that dietary restriction increases life span, reduces neuronal damage, enhances learning abilities, and improves behavioral outcome in experimental animal models of neurodegenerative disorders,” Thuret says.

But not well recognized is how these effects are achieved. In her search for the answers, Thuret and her colleagues selected mice as a lab model, since previous research had associated neurogenesis in the hippocampus with improved memory and learning abilities in rodents.

Each of the three groups of mice in the study included 20 adult females, half of which were used for histology and gene expression data. The remainder were used for behavior research. For three months, one group ate at will, the second group ate every other day, and the third were fed a diet in which calories were restricted by 10 percent every day.

The behavioral tests included the Morris water maze (in which scientists measure animals’ ability to learn and use visual cues to find a hidden platform) and object recognition tests (in which the ability of the mice to remember their encounter with different objects over time is measured).

“We studied their ability to learn and remember, and we looked at the amount of newborn neurons in their brain upon different diets,” Thuret says. “Then we correlated the changes with the regulation of the expression of their genes.”

“There is much to learn about the effects of food intake-for example, how much, how often, what, and when-on the cellular and molecular biology of the nervous system and its functional capabilities, reflecting cognitive performance in both normal and ill circumstances,” Thuret says.

“This area of investigation needs attention because a better understanding of the neurological mechanisms by which nutrition affects health may lead to novel approaches for disease prevention and treatment.”


In another study, frequent physical exercise on activity wheels, which are the rodents’ equivalent of a treadmill, was found to stimulate the birth of new brain cells in young laboratory rats with brain damage resembling the prenatal effects of binge drinking by pregnant human females.

William Greenough, PhD, of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, reports that new brain cells, including neurons as well as supportive glial cells, were generated at much higher rates in the physically active rats than in the rodents whose cages were not connected with activity wheels. "These findings in animals are expected to lead to treatments for humans with brain damage caused by their mother’s alcohol consumption," Greenough says.

In the study, newborn rats, 4 to 9 days old, were given alcohol in amounts reflecting prenatal exposure to alcohol caused by human mothers binge drinking while pregnant. At this age, a newborn rat’s brain is developing rapidly. In human development, a comparable brain growth spurt occurs during the third trimester of pregnancy.

Twenty days after the young rats were first exposed to alcohol, half of the now adolescent animals were allowed to exercise on activity wheels whenever they wished over a period of 12 days. The home cages of the other half of the rats were not attached to wheels.

In previous studies by this team of researchers, motor skills training helped rats overcome some deficits resulting from alcohol exposure during sensitive periods of brain growth.

“Developmental exposure to alcohol is known to affect coordination and synchronization of paw movements,” Greenough says. But after three weeks of daily training on a demanding obstacle course, the rats performed much better than did the untrained, normal rats in the study. The alcohol-exposed, trained rats had learned to maneuver effectively. In addition, as a result of the physical activity, more connections had developed between the neurons in the animals’ cerebellum, a brain structure likely to be involved in their improved motor skill.

Prenatal exposure to alcohol resulting from maternal drinking is the most common preventable cause of developmental disability. According to detailed studies of brain structure, heavy prenatal alcohol exposure can destroy cells in many brain regions including the hippocampus, which is crucial to learning, memory, cognition, and emotion.

“Severe impairments in learning and cognition and in emotional regulation are frequently present during development and typically persist into adulthood,” Greenough says.



I wonder if the dietary restriction has more to do with lowering insulin as opposed to calorie restriction. I say this because longevity research, which they talk about, has more to do with lowering insulin than it does calories. Lower calories = lower insulin by default, but normal-calorie diets low in carbs are just as effective in increasing lifespan as are general calorie restriction diets.

I also remember towards the beginning of this thread the idea of damaging brain cells via drugs/etc. and impaired learning was discussed. The question was would nootropics improve learning if you basically fucked yourself earlier in life, and would it only be a temporary boost in performance, only to vanish once stopping the treatment. Well, it seems exercise helps accomplish both permanent (not including normal neural depredation after adaptations have occurred) gains in learning ability and also overcoming mental disabilities (in this case due to fetal-alcohol, though likely inferable to pot, adult alcohol use, etc.).

There are many, many studies that suggest exercise improves cognitive functioning, memory formation, and memory recall. In fact one of my professors at my undergrad university did a lot of this research, which I had the opportunity to participate in, so I’ve seen the effects first-hand.

           Fantastic post Schwarz.

                Whew!

I’m deciding to go with the moda again today, had a nice break this morning, and after eating I am now going to take 200mg Moda, 10mg Vinpo, and one Spike.

            Catch up in an hour or so gang.

                 ToneBone

Schwartz,

Holy shit that’s an interesting post. I’m printing it out now for my flight. Where did you get it from? Cheers! ~katz

I have RSS set up for a couple of these science article type websites, so I shuffle through article throughout most every day. You’d be surprised at how much you can learn by reading a little here, a little there.

            In the past couple of hours I have COMPLETELY SURPASSED any other day in terms of incredible focus, concentration, ability to stick to the task at hand, and do all of this with an uncanny and incredible amount of calmness and tempo. Something I noticed also since yesterday was opposite to the occasional irritability that can arise. Today I have been incredibly stable when annoying distractions and situations could have easily "set me off". My child, (terrible two's) is fully capable of this with a well timed "super tantrum". 

         Mind you I deal with these situations without "losing it" normally, but they can distract, and definitely stress me out when trying to study especially. Well today, there have been the typical few blowups and I've been able to keep from getting even the slightest bit tweaked..LOL. I'm laughing about it, it's amazing.

     I am ahead of schedule today with my review strategy, the typing and attention to detail in text and choosing format of my "defined study guide" that I am creating, has been absolutely superb. So I had to take a break and tell you all about it. 

 If I have done anything different besides taking the 200mg moda, 10mg vinpo, with the one Spike tablet, it has been a regularly timed ingestion of middle gi carbs and protein consistantly every two hours or so. And had a decent meal,(ham sandwhich/whole grain) directly before the ingestion of compounds to start it off, as far as coffee today, one single cup. 

             So, things are looking great. I will get back to you all after another while. Hope you are enjoying/finding interesting, the posts.

                ToneBone