[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
99% of successful bodybuilders train each muscle once every five to seven days.
Besides, if you damage a muscle enough, you will NEED five to seven days. [/quote]
Name me a split with exercise selection that accomplishes that.[/quote]
See any muscle rag in which they show a successful bodybuilder’s split and exercise selection. Or talk to a successful one.
Yeah.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
99% of successful bodybuilders train each muscle once every five to seven days.
Besides, if you damage a muscle enough, you will NEED five to seven days. [/quote]
What criteria are you using to KNOW if you’ve damaged the muscle enough? [/quote]
The only one that matters I’d wager - visible progress.
I mean, you can’t just say it’s because of how sore you feel - that’s not an accurate indicator of growth. However, if you train each bodypart once every 5 - 7 days and you’re getting bigger and stronger every week - or at least getting bigger and stronger on a reasonably consistent basis - then I would think that would be your criteria for measuring success.
I’ve done it both ways, more frequency, less volume. Less frequency, more volume…but personally once a week per bodypart seems to work for me… [/quote]
Correct–as usual.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
99% of successful bodybuilders train each muscle once every five to seven days.
Besides, if you damage a muscle enough, you will NEED five to seven days. [/quote]
Name me a split with exercise selection that accomplishes that.[/quote]
See any muscle rag in which they show a successful bodybuilder’s split and exercise selection. Or talk to a successful one.[/quote]
There’s overlap in every one I can think of.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
There’s overlap in every one I can think of.[/quote]
Do yourself a favor and leave it be twill be like beating a dead horse.
Original Poster- try stuff out, try a 3* a week see how you cope - if you feel like dog shit and un-able to recover try a 2* a week where most seem to land and see how you cope. Then try a 1* a week where only guys who are wwaayyyyy beyond intermediate go to.
Ie. for me i feel you belong in the 2* or 3* a week. Try adding more food to huh 
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
99% of successful bodybuilders train each muscle once every five to seven days.
Besides, if you damage a muscle enough, you will NEED five to seven days. [/quote]
Name me a split with exercise selection that accomplishes that.[/quote]
See any muscle rag in which they show a successful bodybuilder’s split and exercise selection. Or talk to a successful one.[/quote]
There’s overlap in every one I can think of.[/quote]
Like Dave Tate said about bodybuilders and powerlifters: “The top guys are all doing the same shit.”
I try to train each muscle group as frequently as I can whilst still progressing in/maintaining reps/weight.
For example, a favourite of mine to bring up lagging bodyparts is to split a normal session up and train that muscle every time I go to the gym. I may end up with 10-20% more volume this way, so other factors can’t be considered constant.
I still keep a rep/weight log, and if my numbers begin to get worse, I take one of my “extra” days out, then reassess.
I needn’t PROGRESS in terms of reps/weight, it is just a method to roughly track how my body is recovering. As long as these numbers aren’t getting worse, then I am simply training another variable: the muscles’ ability to handle frequency (as opposed to reps/weight).
Increasing frequency has always been an effective method for me, but as with all things it can only be taken so far before you need to focus on increasing maximum strength or volume or whatever else.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Like Dave Tate said about bodybuilders and powerlifters: “The top guys are all doing the same shit.”[/quote]
BUT… are they top guys BECAUSE they’re all doing the same shit? There’re plenty of mediocre and hopeless guys doing the same things as the top guys. Is it the training methodology or simply a case of genetics etc?
And they’re not necessarily doing the same shit - except of course lifting heavy things and eating a lot. Oops maybe I’ve inadvertently answered the question…?
I hit each muscle directly 2x every 6 days. How do I do this? By managing volume. If you want to train a muscle more often, do less sets and vice versa. Both work.
EDIT: IMO one of the most crucial points in getting “hyooge” is getting a pretty good idea of how fast your body can recover. Once you figure that out, you know when you can hit a muscle again. For instance, I do not want to wait another 3 days if to do legs if they feel ready today, I’m just wasting a “growth session” I guess you could call it. That adds up over time.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
99% of successful bodybuilders train each muscle once every five to seven days.
Besides, if you damage a muscle enough, you will NEED five to seven days. [/quote]
Name me a split with exercise selection that accomplishes that.[/quote]
See any muscle rag in which they show a successful bodybuilder’s split and exercise selection. Or talk to a successful one.[/quote]
There’s overlap in every one I can think of.[/quote]
Like Dave Tate said about bodybuilders and powerlifters: “The top guys are all doing the same shit.”[/quote]
Very few muscles ever get isolated to only 1 day of stimulation a week in any routine (top guys included). I explained this earlier.
Like I said - I’ve done it both ways and found what works for me, but certainly if I’m trying to bring something up I would add frequency.
Train again as fast as you can recover - that would make the most sense and avoid 20 pages of arguing. I think both approaches are valid depending on the circumstances and the individual.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
that would make the most sense and avoid 20 pages of arguing [/quote]
But… we LIKE arguing!! What else is there to do?
[quote]Dave_ wrote:
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
that would make the most sense and avoid 20 pages of arguing [/quote]
But… we LIKE arguing!! What else is there to do?
[/quote]
Damn it a fellow Englishman who is i would say bigger than me when leaner DAMN
Can you like add 20 lbs of fat please your making me feel bad 
Nice Triceps in all fairness what immediately stand out, not near Manchester per chance - always looking for a better workout partner !
I’d say another thing is knowing how much you can recover at a given point. For example you may have a steady progression working a muscle every 3-4 days (2x/week) but then start cutting/get less sleep/etc. and not make the same progression. Then the question arises do you need to be working out each muscle less frequently or realize that the circumstances are the only problem so keep hitting it the same way. Or realize the circumstances are the problem but because of that change frequency to make sure progression is still happening.
[quote]Dave_ wrote:
BUT… are they top guys BECAUSE they’re all doing the same shit? There’re plenty of mediocre and hopeless guys doing the same things as the top guys. Is it the training methodology or simply a case of genetics etc?
[/quote]
I don’t know. All I know is that I didn’t and don’t have forever to figure training out and use up tremendous amounts of time in endless experimentation. So I’ve always looked to people with similar genetics or in similar situations and what the best have done. Then I go from there with designing a program.
How do I know what qualifies as enough damage? I DON’T.
But when I was using bodybuilding programs, 2 to 3 exercises for small muscle groups, and 3 to 4 exercises for big muscle groups (back was an exception that got hit with 6), once every 6 to 7 days did the job.
When I was doing a powerlifting/strength program, it was like this, the same shit everyone else does:
Speed work: once per week for bench and deadlift/squat
Max effort work: once per week for bench and deadlift/squat
Assistance/bodybuilding stuff: 1 or 2 exercises per muscle group twice per week
Now I’m interested in general fitness and some muscle mass maintenance (and maybe even some gain), so I use upper-lower and full body routines, which use 1 or 2 exercises per muscle group two or three times per week.
Again, I don’t have endless time to figure this out, and most men will (and do) waste tremendous amounts of time with seemingly endless experimentation instead of just following a few tried and trusted guidelines.
Even if through experimentation, these people stumbled upon some magic program with PRECISE frequency, they’d be so much farther along if they just stuck with a more generic, “OK” program and gave all they got to it.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I’d say another thing is knowing how much you can recover at a given point. For example you may have a steady progression working a muscle every 3-4 days (2x/week) but then start cutting/get less sleep/etc. and not make the same progression. Then the question arises do you need to be working out each muscle less frequently or realize that the circumstances are the only problem so keep hitting it the same way. Or realize the circumstances are the problem but because of that change frequency to make sure progression is still happening. [/quote]
Circumstances dictate how a program should be designed. In most cases it’s not even a choice. Who’s gonna tell some middle-aged dude with two kids, a wife, a house, and a 60-hour week, to do the same kind of program as some young guy with far less obligations and restrictions on training time and recovery.
Too many people on here want to fight reality. A case that always comes to my mind is some poster in the nutrition forum explaining a situation in which he was broke and busted - just graduated college, no job, not a penny in the bank - worrying that his generic PWO concoction of Gatorade and whey powder was not as effective as Surge but was relegated to stick with it because he couldn’t afford Surge. What this guy failed to realize was that as a grown adult, he had a far bigger problem and priority on his hands than having optimal PWO nutrition or even making any gains in a gym!
If I had my way, I’d train 3 hours a day - like an athlete perhaps. But here’s the problem: I CAN’T.
I think it’s more important to look at what the top guys did to get where they are now, not what they currently do. I’ve heard several in interviews say “do what I did not what I do” or something to that effect.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I think it’s more important to look at what the top guys did to get where they are now, not what they currently do. I’ve heard several in interviews say “do what I did not what I do” or something to that effect.[/quote]
That’s the same thing we have been saying here…just like newbs who are against bulking up even though they have lightening fast metabolisms because some bodybuilder doesn’t…even though that same bodybuilder DID bulk up in the past to get that big.
Looking at what Lee Priest is doing right now after 2 decades and copying it is a mistake unless you are his twin or match his size and strength at least marginally.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
How do I know what qualifies as enough damage? I DON’T.
But when I was using bodybuilding programs, 2 to 3 exercises for small muscle groups, and 3 to 4 exercises for big muscle groups (back was an exception that got hit with 6), once every 6 to 7 days did the job.
When I was doing a powerlifting/strength program, it was like this, the same shit everyone else does:
Speed work: once per week for bench and deadlift/squat
Max effort work: once per week for bench and deadlift/squat
Assistance/bodybuilding stuff: 1 or 2 exercises per muscle group twice per week
Now I’m interested in general fitness and some muscle mass maintenance (and maybe even some gain), so I use upper-lower and full body routines, which use 1 or 2 exercises per muscle group two or three times per week.
Again, I don’t have endless time to figure this out, and most men will (and do) waste tremendous amounts of time with seemingly endless experimentation instead of just following a few tried and trusted guidelines.
Even if through experimentation, these people stumbled upon some magic program with PRECISE frequency, they’d be so much farther along if they just stuck with a more generic, “OK” program and gave all they got to it. [/quote]
Really good post!