[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I would rather live a long, rich, full life - like this guy (a poster child for the calorie restriction movement) undoubtedly will.
Hey, that’s the guy from Rate My Physique forum!!![/quote]
Yep. And he just started a thread about the “hate and negativity” on the site.
[quote]Sliver wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Sliver wrote:
The term bodybuilding needs to be defined a little bit more. Because Jack Lelane and Jeep Swenson both lifted weights. Jack is 92 and doing great. Jeep is busy pushing up daises.
Do you see the problem here?
Not really, unless you are about to suggest that you know every single recreational drug that Swenson took, his eating habits, alcoholic intake and any other risky behavior that went on in his life.
There is a large problem when people start looking at people who die and trying to blame one culprit for why they aren’t breathing anymore simply because of how large they were.
My point (which you missed) was that lifting had absolutely nothing to do with how long they lived.
But now that you brought it up. Jeeps doctors said that they wouldn’t even think of cutting him open unless he was 100 pounds lighter. So yes, his is dead simply because of how large he was.[/quote]
Where are you getting this information about the decisions made by Jeep’s doctors and why they made them?
I remember them talking about it on the news days after it happened. But as far as the internet is concerned IMDB says this:
He was over 400 pounds when he died. He had a massive myocardial infarction, and while in the hospital, the doctors admitted that they could not do anything for him until he could lose at least 100 pounds. He died days later.
If bodybuilding means exercising to gain muscle, then it will most likely lengthen your life.
Worrying about putting on muscle will cause you more harm then eating big and gaining some size. If you eat clean and big to gain muscle you will be fine.
Steriod use increases mortality in mice. The more steriods, the more death and diseses (liver, kidney and heart).
So keep your mice away from your gear.
[quote]Andrew Dixon wrote:
Steriod use increases mortality in mice. The more steriods, the more death and diseses (liver, kidney and heart).
So keep your mice away from your gear.[/quote]
I’ll be sure to tell my rodent friends.
Interesting topic, bodyweight and age.
The facts do seem to line up on the side of those living longest having less bodyweight. There is no question at this point that those who are obese do not live as long as those who are of normal weight for their height. But, maybe how they got that way is more important still.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3246
As the CDC points out being overweight can cause a myriad of complications:
Hypertension
Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
Type 2 diabetes
Coronary heart disease
Stroke
Gallbladder disease
Osteoarthritis
Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
Some cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon)
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/index.htm
But, does more muscle (not more fat) mean a shortened lifespan?
Is it healthier to be on the heavy side, if it is muscle not fat? Or, healthier to be on the lighter side, as in carrying less fat and less over all bodyweight?
One study states that being on the lean side helps longevity:
"But a new study, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association last December, followed 19,000 men for 25 years and found no evidence of excessive deaths associated with leanness in normally healthy men. On the contrary, after taking smoking and weight loss due to illness into consideration, the lowest death rate was among those men weighing 20% below average for their age and height. The study concluded that the “upward trend in recommended desirable weights appears unjustified.”
Here is another interesting study which does not prove that cutting calories increases life span. But it does seem to point to the many health benefits achieved in human beings when they do cut calories. Such “bio markers” of aging are in fact reduced:
“By the study’s end, fasting insulin and DNA damage had dropped for all participants whose calories had been limited, but not for the comparison group. The dieters also burned fewer calories than before the experiment, the study shows.”
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/529117
As for Football players, well the news isn’t good:
"The amazing athletes of the National Football League – bigger and stronger than ever before – are dying young at a rate experts find alarming, and many of the players are succumbing to ailments typically related to weight.
“The heaviest athletes are more than twice as likely to die before their 50th birthday than their teammates, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of 3,850 professional-football players who have died in the last century.”
Those who claim that large people don’t live as long as smaller people have a reasonably good case.
“Scientists have known for a long time that rats, mice, and worms that eat very little live longer than those that eat normal diets. Now, the results of research on humans are starting to emerge. It may take decades to prove that people who carefully regulate their calories and eating patterns extend their life span, but at the very least, some scientists say, these people may avoid many health problems associated with aging.”
While it would take an experiment on humans lasting a lifetime to officially claim that eating less, thus weighing less will cause you to live longer, there is enough circumstantial evidence to make that assumption.
And I would say that most of you make decisions regarding other important aspects in your life with even less evidence than that which claims that eating less will extend a human life.
As a personal observation it seems that extremes are not healthy when it comes to longevity.
Just as the marathon runner actually depletes his immune system instead of building it up, I feel that those who gain an inordinate amount of weight are setting themselves up for future health problems, which ultimately lead to less time on this earth.
And those who use Jack LaLanne as an example must first realize that LaLane at his heaviest was only 175 pounds at a height of roughly 5’ 7". Not what I would call obese, only slightly heavy according to current charts.
More importantly LaLanne lost much of that weight later in life. And is currently well below the 175 pounds.
Is he long lived (93 in September) because he lifted weights? Or is he long lived because of an entire lifestyle which centered around healthy living?
Perhaps what it takes to gain bulk, be it muscle or fat, is the culprit that ultimately robs us of our vitality and eventually shortens life.
Is it a stretch to think that overeating can shorten ones life?
Extremes?
Interesting topic.
My BMI says I’m “overweight” at 5’10" 185 and a 33 inch waist. I know a guy that’s 5’9" and weighs around 165 with a 38" waist and his BMI is in the normal range.
I think this whole topic stems from the BMI saying that you’re overweight based solely on height and weight rather than taking body fat into account.
I think that adding on extra muscle is perfectly healthy. The heart is a muscle too and it gets stronger in order to support the extra mass.
There is another way to look at it.
Muscle mass & strength are extremely important for ageing well. Maintaining your independence and staying out of a home. Those places are terrible for maintaining the physical side of your health. The longer you stay out the better!
Sure, there is a relationship between body mass and the strain on your heart. I think its been fairly well established. But your usually looking at extremes aswell as composition. You might have to lose a little as you get older but you can still maintain alot of it. It would be even easier with HRT.
You also have to distinguish between the sport of bodybuilding and the lifestyle. The sport requires things like dehydration which can be very dangerous, other associated drugs might have problems too like liver damage. But the lifestyle? Pretty safe id think. Much safer then watching Tv.
Besides… whats the point of living if you cant hoist your gf up against the wall with ease?
Mice fed a low calorie nutrient dense diet lived longer then mice feed a high calorie diet. I have always wondered if this carried over to humans as well.
In my head I imagine a high calorie diet shortening life because your body has to do more metabolic work… or something like that.
I learned about the study on mice in bio class. Unfortunately there was no other info about the subject. For all I know the mice that were fed a high calorie diet were fed food that is equivalent to McDonalds, totally negating the validity of the research in my humble opionion.
As I am sure a high calorie diet consisting of fruits, veggies, lean meat and whole grain bread is a lot different than a high calorie diet of processed meat, mayo, and potatoes with grease injections.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Is it a stretch to think that overeating can shorten ones life?
[/quote]
Yes, because you haven’t defined “overeating”. Is someone working on gaining lean body weight in majority “overeating” like someone who isn’t doing anything with extra calories? I think the question alone underestimates how effective regular weight training and cardio are in regards to overall health.
Will that cheeseburger have the same effect on the relatively lean bodybuilder who works out 6 days a week and is trying to gain muscle mass as it will on the sedentary couch potato who only moves to walk from the car to the front door? Of course not.
Taking eating habits out of context of overall lifestyle is a little lazy.
Just an observation, but shouldn’t we be seeing thousands of skinny people living to be over 100 years old simply because they are skinny?
The truth is, most people in that later stage of life are skinny because motor skills and muscle mass are reduced with age. Even most bodybuilders don’t maintain extreme size late in life simply because the human body can’t maintain it. Albert Beckles is said to look pretty thin compared to what he was in his 60’s…but think about what he was in his 60’s! Maybe that is why he is still living at what has to be over 80 years of age now and, according to one message board, still personal training.
Where are the mountains of dead bodies of people who gained a lot of size and didn’t overly abuse drugs in the process? It seems most of the guys who didn’t go overboard are still kicking. Is it that some people truly believe they will live forever? Is it painful to admit that over 70, walking will probably be a problem no matter how you lived?
It just doesn’t seem to be panning out that bodybuilders all die young. Arnold, even out of shape, is still in better shape than most his age. It would seem that all of that bodybuilding early in life did some good afterall for most of them.
here is another generalisation for you
A lot of pro athletes also use recreational drugs or decend into heavy alchohol use after their careers are over,
T-contibutor Art De Vaney writes quite extensively on training, lifespans, marathon running etc.
[quote]legend wrote:
here is another generalisation for you
A lot of pro athletes also use recreational drugs or decend into heavy alchohol use after their careers are over,
T-contibutor Art De Vaney writes quite extensively on training, lifespans, marathon running etc.
[/quote]
Many of those larger line backers also end up with eating disorders. ESPN did a few articles on this back around 2000. They followed a few of those guys who had gotten to over 300lbs while playing and quite a few couldn’t tone down their eating after playing.
That led to extreme obesity for many of them with almost no regular physical activity (One I remember had gotten well over 400lbs from doing nothing but eating and running his restaurant). I think people forget that most of these guys base their activity level around simply playing the game. Without the game, they have no drive to hit the gym. That would seem to have more to do withy why some may die young than simply because they played football alone.
I guess trying to blame one culprit is just easy. Jeep Swenson didn’t die JUST because he took drugs. The man was over 400lbs. While not completely sedentary, there is no way he was exactly in contest condition at a weight like that and we have no clue what else he was involved in or how bad his health was overall. The man was quoted once as stating that he does no cardio. Maybe he should have.
If some lineman stops playing ball, sits on his ass and gains another 100lbs of lard, if he died before 50, do you really blame football?
Just for the record…
Brian Pillman - Heart Disease
Big John Studd - Cancer
Curt Hennig - Cocaine overdose
Andre the giant - Congestive Heart failure (lifetime untreated GH secreting pituitary tumour)
Junk Yard Dog - Car Accident
Rick Rude - Prescription med OD
Owen Heart - Fell out of stunt harness
Dino Bravo - Murdered
The case for wrestling and reduced lifespan - Unlikely
No it doesn’t. Laziness, well maybe. Not just the length but the quality. Get of your butt and get in the gym.
I guarantee you you won’t put on 20-30lbs of muscle easily and if you did you’d be happy with it. Try it don’t knock it and don’t be a pussy.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Just an observation, but shouldn’t we be seeing thousands of skinny people living to be over 100 years old simply because they are skinny?[/quote]
I think one could probably make a good case for that extreme not working to help a person live a long life either.
If you are going to claim that lifting weights and eating healthy natural foods is good, I agree.
If you are going to walk way out on a limb and claim that gaining a large amount of lean body mass will lead to a longer life you’ll have a very difficult time proving that (and I’m not saying that is your position).
In fact, there is far more evidence to indicate that caloric restriction leads to a longer life. And I’m not a caloric restriction believer.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Just an observation, but shouldn’t we be seeing thousands of skinny people living to be over 100 years old simply because they are skinny?
I think one could probably make a good case for that extreme not working to help a person live a long life either.
If you are going to claim that lifting weights and eating healthy natural foods is good, I agree.
If you are going to walk way out on a limb and claim that gaining a large amount of lean body mass will lead to a longer life you’ll have a very difficult time proving that (and I’m not saying that is your position).
In fact, there is far more evidence to indicate that caloric restriction leads to a longer life. And I’m not a caloric restriction believer.
[/quote]
My position is that the lifestyle of lifting weights, gaining lean body mass and doing regular physical activity with periods of regular cardio as necessary will lead to a very healthy high quality life. Discussing “length” of life alone is ridiculous to me because there are far too many variables involved that no one even seems to consider when these discussions come up.
Christopher Reeves wife died of lung cancer. She didn’t smoke.
Environment, life style and genetic factors all contribute to how long someone can live, not just “food intake” alone. I know that isn’t your stance, but it seems it actually is the stance of some others.
Two people with the exact same life style and eating habits could both die decades apart for no other reason than one deals with stress better than the other.
Things like that are why animal studies on this issue don’t directly apply to humans. We don’t live in a cage with a running wheel and water bottle.
I think the calorie restriction increased life since it decreased the amount of insulin released. Since bodybuilders eat healthy and have low bodyfat %s their insulin is usually in check so its kinda the same thing.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
My position is that the lifestyle of lifting weights, gaining lean body mass and doing regular physical activity with periods of regular cardio as necessary will lead to a very healthy high quality life.[/quote]
This is the crux of the matter to me.
Now that I lift regularly, my heart rate is good, my blood pressure is good, my cholesterol is good, and so many other factors are better.
Regular exercise is a large part of living a healthy life.
To me, that is the “end of story” message. Of course we can pull out anecdotal bullshit about professional athletes and so on, but fit and healthy are sort of synonymous.
You know i bet the football players die young for the same reason as those wrestlers its that personality type they live life fast on the edge kinda thing.
[quote]Moomin wrote:
Just for the record…
Brian Pillman - Heart Disease
Big John Studd - Cancer
Curt Hennig - Cocaine overdose
Andre the giant - Congestive Heart failure (lifetime untreated GH secreting pituitary tumour)
Junk Yard Dog - Car Accident
Rick Rude - Prescription med OD
Owen Heart - Fell out of stunt harness
Dino Bravo - Murdered
The case for wrestling and reduced lifespan - Unlikely
[/quote]