Gentlemen, I feel as though my brain is ready to explode from everything I am learning here.
@ Bricknyce: So you believe that steady state is better for bodybuilding than HIIT? What about this dealeo I keep hearing about where the body “eliminates mass to lighten the load”?
Has that turned out to be BS?
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]Safety Dyck wrote:
HIIT vs LI
Layne Norton has addressed this a few times, here’s 1 of the quotes:
Quote:
High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIT) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories .
Some relevant studies:
Two studies done by the same researchers, were published in Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Mar;25(3):332-9. The first study was done on two groups of 352 total men, those who did High intensity activities regularly and those who did not. The study showed that men who were more likely to be in high intensity activities not only had lower bodyfat and subcutaneous fat, but even when they ate more than the sedentary group.
The 2nd study was more direct, measuring the effects after a high intensity excercise. They found that oxygen consumption and fat oxidation increased afterwards. They also found that the oxygen consumption effect was much greater in the high intensity group compared to low intensity. In other words, the high intensity group not only had increased metabolism and fat loss abilities for hours post excercise, but the metabolism increasing effect was much higher over the low intensity group.
Interesting part is they found these effects to stop with the addition of propranolol, researchers concluded that beta adrenergic stimulation, may be the major role in the after effects from high intensity excercise.
Another study published in Metabolism. 1994 Jul;43(7):814-8 They compared a group (8 women 9 men) doing 20-week endurance-training compared to a group (5 men 5 women) doing HIIT. The decrease in subcutaneous skinfolds when adjusted for energy expedenture were 9 times greater than the endurance group! Researchers concluded that higher intensity, was not only superior for metabolism and fat burning effects, but also for skeletal muscle adaptions.
The study published in (J Appl Physiol (December 14, 2006). doi:10.1152/japplphysiol.01098.2006) done on moderately active women for 2 weeks. Results showed increased capacity in fat burning in muscles and whole body, during HIIT cardio sessions.
[/quote]
True, but steady state cardio can be done more often without affecting weight workouts. Case in point: do both! However the approach that one favors will be the one that works. I prefer steady state cardio as HIIT drains me of energy, so i do that most of the time.[/quote]
Just to follow on:
It’s not effective to do HIIT on a low carb intake, which is something that some bodybuilders have to do (depending on metabolism etc) - you would burn out quickly/lose muscle. Low carb intake would be somewhere in the region of 0.5g/pound in bodyweight or under.
Also, you can only tolerate so much intensity per week. Bearing in mind that the lifting is already strenuous enough, adding in intensive cardio sessions on top of that AND restricted calorie intake can lead to overtraining (catabolic hormones increase - fat loss halts or you can even gain fat, and sometimes muscle loss occurs).
So what’s the verdict?
Depending on what you can cope with (also depending on what you’re training, and how hard) HIIT can only be reasonably done 2-3 times per week. 2 times being the most common…which leaves some fat reserves “untapped”, and after fat loss stagnates, there is no other options for HIIT. So, steady pace cardio has to be done also (to fill in the gaps so to speak) if further fat loss is required.
Hi earthquake, here’s a few tips for you (although it’s hard to judge just from one angle):
Make sure your feet are pointing slightly outwards (natural stance…nothing uncomfortable). This will be about 30% out. If you keep your feet too straight (e.g. parallel to each other), it puts pressure/friction on your knee joints etc. Knees should go slightly outwards, not straight out in front of you/inwards.
Don’t stand too close. Shoulder width stance is about right. If you stand too close, you’ll lean too far forward, take the load off your heels, and put your lower back into the movement too much.
It’s hard to tell in just one angle, but those are the points it seems that are appropriate. Not that there was much wrong with your lift…pretty decent form actually (good depth too).
[quote]Mr. Frost wrote:
Gentlemen, I feel as though my brain is ready to explode from everything I am learning here.
@ Bricknyce: So you believe that steady state is better for bodybuilding than HIIT? What about this dealeo I keep hearing about where the body “eliminates mass to lighten the load”?
Has that turned out to be BS?
[/quote]
30 to 60 minute WALKS and stationary cycling sessions never made bodybuilders shrink.
I didn’t say either one was better; I said it depends on the person’s situation.
[quote]earthquake wrote:
Thanks Brick.
[/quote]
It looks OK, but I can’t tell the whole deal. It’s not bad.
Just make sure to flex your lats and draw your shoulder blades together when you squat.
If you see what Layne does with clients all of them are very individually tailored with cardio and intake. He does keep carbs as high as possible for the individual and cardio is usually starting with 1-2 HIIT sessions a week depending on that person’s weight training schedule and adding LISS as neccesary to lean out (I’m talking about a prep). He’s had to cut out HIIT because of a client’s knee problems before but otherwise it seems like most end up doing it and doing well especially if Layne is setting up the rest of their training and diet for them. He has had to use a keto approach for some clients so I’m not sure if he has them doing HIIT sessions or not, you can ask him on his threads.
Also he tends to have his clients on high volume lifting routines so that ends up being alot of work done and a high carb intake is definitely necessary for all the activity he has them doing.
Have any of those HIIT studies been performed on regular weightlifters?
I can see how it would be way more beneficial if that was all someone was doing, but if they weren’t simultaneously lifting weights in those experiments then there’s a huge gap in application for us.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
On the topic of adding calories and not going overboard and getting fat…this is something I’ve wanted to post on for ages but always end up deleting it before I press submit because the intended audience won’t read it and only the outliers and guys that already know this will comment, we will see how I do this time.
I work with Shelby Starnes, at the tail end of my fat loss diet I was doing
4 low carb days (off training days)
2 moderate carb days
1 high carb day
If you want the macros you can hire him yourself or take a peak at one of his many articles/e-books on the subject. Adequate protein, carbs and fat inversely proportional to each other as a generality.
When it was time to switch gears did he add 2,000 calories to my plan and a ton of pizza/ice cream? No, we took out one meal that had served as my PWO and added a pre/during/post workout mostly liquid protocol. The calorie swap was about +500 calories on training days and we tapered the cardio down. All the same counting and precision as a pre contest bodybuilder. Cardio still done 4x weekly. I just used my personal example for reference, that isn’t a recommendation for anyone in terms of setup unless you happen to have similar metabolism as me and train 3x a week in the fashion I do, carry the same bodyfat % and have the same goals.
I’m still eating chicken and rice meals, steak and veggies+healthy fats etc even though it’s off-season and we are working on lean mass for the next 8-10 months. I thought offseason was time for the buffet?(sarcasm)
For guys that want to pursue the bodybuilding lifestyle and be happy with themselves along the way it would behoove them to live like one day to day and worry about the junk food when you have maxed out all the good bodybuilding food(not likely). You aren’t likely to have a deep separated six pack and triceps striations year round unless you are just gifted in that area, but almost anyone can maintain “in decent shape”. Define that for yourself ahead of time, diet down if you need to but at least start off with some semblance of happiness.
Call it bro-science but a large percentage of bodybuilders eat good traditional bodybuilding foods the majority of the year. Guys that are Shelby’s Facebook friend see his status updates a few times a week about the food he eats, it’s lean or healthy fat meats, complex carbs and healthy fats all day every day… 5-6k calories worth. That’s a national level bodybuilder who walks around with abs at 220-230 year round. Why at 170 and chubby do you think you need 5k calories and 6 cheat meals a week? Maybe if we got down to brass tracks and put someone on good quality food they’d actually grow off a more calorie/macro moderate diet without turning into a tub in the process.
If you are blaming PX like a current outrageously bad thread because you ate baconators and lasagna 4x weekly “to get in the calories” and did no cardio… didn’t take progress pictures or bother to look in the mirror and you ended up fatter than you like you need to wake up and get some control over yourself. Can you have some fun foods? Yeah sure indulge on occasion, but do you NEED them as often as you want… not all that likely until you are maxing out your options. His advice is inherently good but the issue is he assumes people are intelligently pursuing this and that is woefully wrong for the most part.
Establish a baseline diet based on mostly “clean” foods and make adjustments every 1-3 weeks. As long as you are in the ball park of a reasonable diet with your initial plan you can eventually make it work. Checks and balances… Didn’t grow? Add 20 grams of carbs to 3 of your meals on training days and see how things go in a few weeks. If you are getting stronger on a reasonable program and your weight is trending upwards while not getting fatter than YOU are happy with you are doing fantastic. People here want to gain 9 lbs of muscle each much but outside of brand newbies or someone who just learned how to eat it’s not happening. You will scoff at this but if you put on 1 lb of muscle this month you are making good progress. I hope nobody is expecting to be Phil Heath after 2 years of training(or 12 weeks). You will know if you have thos kind of genetics because you won’t even be looking for advice in the first place. Average 1 lb of muscle every month for 5 years means you are now 60 lbs of muscle heavier than when you started and likely one of the best built natural guys in your gym unless you started way back in the pack. Very few are willing to do this consistently and correctly for long enough and that’s fine… it’s not a lifestyle for everyone and never will be.
There are certainly guys outside of the standard deviations that are exceptions to the usual process… that NEED to boatload the food to grow, just as there are guys who need to be on a STRICT diet and do cardio 5-6x a week or else they lay down fat. I don’t need someone to come here and say they ate junk and did fine, not everyone can do that… I know you exist lol.
**** the most important part of the post ******
Be happy with yourself, establish a limit of how much fat you are willing to carry. If that’s 8% so be it… you will likely have to be strict as hell and up on the cardio near daily unless you are naturally lean like that. If you want the absolute most muscle you can gain over the next year then you are going to HAVE to accept some body fat gain. Find out where you are on that need/willingness spectrum and get to work given your goals.
This isn’t easy but it is simple. [/quote]
bumped for excellence
lol every time one of you quotes it I realize I can’t go back and change that post as bad as I’d like to.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
lol every time one of you quotes it I realize I can’t go back and change that post as bad as I’d like to. [/quote]
what would you want to change?
Just further clarification and a little better wording.
You should post your new version too.
Every time I get started I start rambling and have no direction. It would turn into a multi page epic of a post that I just don’t have intention to start. If people want clarifications I’d be glad to expound on certain aspects of what I was getting at but if people start OCDing things to the Nth degree like they did with Brick’s training advice I’d lose my mind and erase everything lol.
At this point I think it’s better off just leaving a skeleton template and not encourage the “well what about bread” or other inane questions that would eventually crop up where someone/everyone can’t see the forest for the trees. Seriously go back to the original bible and look at some of the CRAP people were worrying about. Sometimes you just want to shake someone and make them realize it just doesn’t matter that much. Just get going on a reasonable plan and see how you do or even better if you have the means hire someone who has a good reputation for your goal.
Damn Scott, that’s a gem right there. Unacceptable that this will sink into the archives without bumps, so therefore…
BUMP! READ SCOTTS POST AND LEARN YOUNGINS!
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Damn Scott, that’s a gem right there. Unacceptable that this will sink into the archives without bumps, so therefore…
BUMP! READ SCOTTS POST AND LEARN YOUNGINS![/quote]
agreed. but, Scott, if you ever do decide to re-write or expand on that i hope you make it public
[quote]earthquake wrote:
Thanks Brick.
[/quote]
You got some pretty bad butt-winking going on at the bottom, totally losing your arch there. Better fix that or else your sacroiliac and spine will mutiny eventually.
Tightness is a big issue there, as brick mentioned.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
One advantage of the slow gain route is that it builds consistency b/c you have to keep at it for longer periods of time.
I’ve simplified my diet to the point where each meal consists of:
1 serving of protein
1 serving of fruit
1 serving of vegetables
1 serving of healthy fats
I still pay attention to marco totals for the day, but I still keep it as simple as possible, and check the scale and mirror for feedback over time.[/quote]
This is EXACTLY what I do. [/quote]
Could you give me some ex. meals that you have while doing this… please & thank you.
Greek salad with chicken and olive oil and vinegar
An apple
Egg white omelet with two yolks, cheese, and vegetables.
An orange.
Concoction made of Greek yogurt, protein powder, raisins, and nuts.