Bodybuilders Train Wrong

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:

I was just reading the new Flex for this month and it has Phil Heath’s shoulder day routine-- it is 20+ sets. Wtf. Also, it is not optimal for a beginner or intermediate to attempt to build up any appreciable amount of strength doing 10-20 sets for a bodypart in a session.

When you all see a pro bodybuilder discuss how he trains, there are actually some of you who think this is a RECOMMENDATION for all beginners to do the same?

Why would anyone think this way?
You are a newbie…who is apparently so well read that you have made yourself really fucking stupid.

You don’t see the complete idiocy here?

X one minute: “Bodybuilders TRAIN this way. You should do what the bigger m’fers are doing if you want to gain like them.”

[note Phil Heath’s shoulder routine]

X next minute: “What a fucking idiot–who would look at a bodybuilders routine and think that’s an actual recommendation.”

Dude, there is no winning (or reasoning) with you. You have decided I’m going to be one of your pinatas for the month as you bolster your online persona, and there isn’t a gd thing I could say/do to change that. Good thing it doesn’t matter to me at all.

FWIW- I’ve said from the start that splits (of the 3-5 day variety) are great for people that are advanced or approaching advanced.

JP is the smartest guy on this thread. I don’t know why it matters. I guess it comes back to not thinking that naturals training like pro bbers is optimal and for 90% of the forum members. So, questions are posed by people looking for help and I want to provide it to them. I guess that’s why.
[/quote]

I’m sorry, but no one here is recommending someone train with 20 sets in a session.

You seem to think that when someone says ‘bodypart split’ that immediately means 6 exercises per muscle group and 20 sets, and that there is no other way of doing it.

What is being said here time and again is that splitting your body up in order to hit each muscle thoroughly is the way to go if you plan on putting on the MOST MUSCLE possible. That means you find the volume that best suits you in order to fully fatigue the muscle yet make progress. If your goal is to be 160lb with abs then TBT the shit out of yourself.

82

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:

I was just reading the new Flex for this month and it has Phil Heath’s shoulder day routine-- it is 20+ sets. Wtf. Also, it is not optimal for a beginner or intermediate to attempt to build up any appreciable amount of strength doing 10-20 sets for a bodypart in a session.

When you all see a pro bodybuilder discuss how he trains, there are actually some of you who think this is a RECOMMENDATION for all beginners to do the same?

Why would anyone think this way?
You are a newbie…who is apparently so well read that you have made yourself really fucking stupid.

You don’t see the complete idiocy here?

X one minute: “Bodybuilders TRAIN this way. You should do what the bigger m’fers are doing if you want to gain like them.”

[note Phil Heath’s shoulder routine]

X next minute: “What a fucking idiot–who would look at a bodybuilders routine and think that’s an actual recommendation.”

Dude, there is no winning (or reasoning) with you. You have decided I’m going to be one of your pinatas for the month as you bolster your online persona, and there isn’t a gd thing I could say/do to change that. Good thing it doesn’t matter to me at all.

FWIW- I’ve said from the start that splits (of the 3-5 day variety) are great for people that are advanced or approaching advanced.

JP is the smartest guy on this thread. I don’t know why it matters. I guess it comes back to not thinking that naturals training like pro bbers is optimal and for 90% of the forum members. So, questions are posed by people looking for help and I want to provide it to them. I guess that’s why.
[/quote]

Actually, howabout you fucking e-mail Phil Heath and ask him for a sample shoulder routine for a BEGINNER. I am sure it won’t be all of 20 sets.

83

[quote]Alquemist wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:

I was just reading the new Flex for this month and it has Phil Heath’s shoulder day routine-- it is 20+ sets. Wtf. Also, it is not optimal for a beginner or intermediate to attempt to build up any appreciable amount of strength doing 10-20 sets for a bodypart in a session.

When you all see a pro bodybuilder discuss how he trains, there are actually some of you who think this is a RECOMMENDATION for all beginners to do the same?

Why would anyone think this way?
You are a newbie…who is apparently so well read that you have made yourself really fucking stupid.

You don’t see the complete idiocy here?

X one minute: “Bodybuilders TRAIN this way. You should do what the bigger m’fers are doing if you want to gain like them.”

[note Phil Heath’s shoulder routine]

X next minute: “What a fucking idiot–who would look at a bodybuilders routine and think that’s an actual recommendation.”

Dude, there is no winning (or reasoning) with you. You have decided I’m going to be one of your pinatas for the month as you bolster your online persona, and there isn’t a gd thing I could say/do to change that. Good thing it doesn’t matter to me at all.

FWIW- I’ve said from the start that splits (of the 3-5 day variety) are great for people that are advanced or approaching advanced.

JP is the smartest guy on this thread. I don’t know why it matters. I guess it comes back to not thinking that naturals training like pro bbers is optimal and for 90% of the forum members. So, questions are posed by people looking for help and I want to provide it to them. I guess that’s why.

Actually, howabout you fucking e-mail Phil Heath and ask him for a sample shoulder routine for a BEGINNER. I am sure it won’t be all of 20 sets. [/quote]

It’s your thread. You seem to be advocating training “like a bodybuilder”. No one has said that pros don’t train right for pros. That would be idiotic. We are talking about whether the way they train has any real relevance to natural non-pros. So, it isn’t really about splits per se, but certain kinds of splits (i.e. the kind that pro bodybuilders use).

84

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:

I was just reading the new Flex for this month and it has Phil Heath’s shoulder day routine-- it is 20+ sets. Wtf. Also, it is not optimal for a beginner or intermediate to attempt to build up any appreciable amount of strength doing 10-20 sets for a bodypart in a session.

When you all see a pro bodybuilder discuss how he trains, there are actually some of you who think this is a RECOMMENDATION for all beginners to do the same?

Why would anyone think this way?
You are a newbie…who is apparently so well read that you have made yourself really fucking stupid.

You don’t see the complete idiocy here?

X one minute: “Bodybuilders TRAIN this way. You should do what the bigger m’fers are doing if you want to gain like them.”

[note Phil Heath’s shoulder routine]

X next minute: “What a fucking idiot–who would look at a bodybuilders routine and think that’s an actual recommendation.”

Dude, there is no winning (or reasoning) with you. You have decided I’m going to be one of your pinatas for the month as you bolster your online persona, and there isn’t a gd thing I could say/do to change that. Good thing it doesn’t matter to me at all.

FWIW- I’ve said from the start that splits (of the 3-5 day variety) are great for people that are advanced or approaching advanced.

JP is the smartest guy on this thread. I don’t know why it matters. I guess it comes back to not thinking that naturals training like pro bbers is optimal and for 90% of the forum members. So, questions are posed by people looking for help and I want to provide it to them. I guess that’s why.

Actually, howabout you fucking e-mail Phil Heath and ask him for a sample shoulder routine for a BEGINNER. I am sure it won’t be all of 20 sets.

It’s your thread. You seem to be advocating training “like a bodybuilder”. No one has said that pros don’t train right for pros. That would be idiotic. We are talking about whether the way they train has any real relevance to natural non-pros. So, it isn’t really about splits per se, but certain kinds of splits (i.e. the kind that pro bodybuilders use). [/quote]

Bodybuilders use all kinds of splits, are you people still arguing about this crap ?

85

[quote]monatu wrote:
Hey guys
serious question

Ive read so much that says that hitting a body part with such low frequency (1x a week) does not work very well for strength or size for people who are not on steroids. I dont have an article to link offhand but im sure you have all heard/read this as well. I was wondering what your take on it is.

I have used Upper/Lower splits in the past (WS4SB) and TBT splits (Madcow’s 5x5, currently on Bigger,Faster,Stronger). I have never used bodypart splits and was wondering, for the future, on their effectiveness for a natural lifter.
Would something like:

Day 1 - Chest, Triceps, Shoulders
Day 2 - Back, Legs, Biceps
Day 4 - Same as day 1
Day 5 - Same as day 2

Be superior (hitting each part 2x a week) to a split that had something like:

Day 1 - Chest
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Back
Day 4 - Shoulders, Traps
Day 5 - Arms

Also, where would you put things like Power/Hang Cleans, if you did a body part split?[/quote]

Well how did you do on your Upper/Lower Split versus TBT? What does your body look like? How long have you been lifting?

These are questions for you to think about. If your after overall size and you grew alot on upper/lower go back to it or try a full split for a while to see if you gain or lose. If you grew more with TBT go back to that.
If you have a weakness increase the frequency and or volume of that body part.
I have a tough time recovering from leg workouts so once a week is enough for me, occasionally twice, but that is more because I can’t run or move my legs when playing sports. The rest of my bodyparts I hit 2-3 times.

What are you doing power/hang cleans for?

86

[quote]trextacy wrote:
Alquemist wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
trextacy wrote:

I was just reading the new Flex for this month and it has Phil Heath’s shoulder day routine-- it is 20+ sets. Wtf. Also, it is not optimal for a beginner or intermediate to attempt to build up any appreciable amount of strength doing 10-20 sets for a bodypart in a session.

When you all see a pro bodybuilder discuss how he trains, there are actually some of you who think this is a RECOMMENDATION for all beginners to do the same?

Why would anyone think this way?
You are a newbie…who is apparently so well read that you have made yourself really fucking stupid.

You don’t see the complete idiocy here?

X one minute: “Bodybuilders TRAIN this way. You should do what the bigger m’fers are doing if you want to gain like them.”

[note Phil Heath’s shoulder routine]

X next minute: “What a fucking idiot–who would look at a bodybuilders routine and think that’s an actual recommendation.”

Dude, there is no winning (or reasoning) with you. You have decided I’m going to be one of your pinatas for the month as you bolster your online persona, and there isn’t a gd thing I could say/do to change that. Good thing it doesn’t matter to me at all.

FWIW- I’ve said from the start that splits (of the 3-5 day variety) are great for people that are advanced or approaching advanced.

JP is the smartest guy on this thread. I don’t know why it matters. I guess it comes back to not thinking that naturals training like pro bbers is optimal and for 90% of the forum members. So, questions are posed by people looking for help and I want to provide it to them. I guess that’s why.

Actually, howabout you fucking e-mail Phil Heath and ask him for a sample shoulder routine for a BEGINNER. I am sure it won’t be all of 20 sets.

It’s your thread. You seem to be advocating training “like a bodybuilder”. No one has said that pros don’t train right for pros. That would be idiotic. We are talking about whether the way they train has any real relevance to natural non-pros. So, it isn’t really about splits per se, but certain kinds of splits (i.e. the kind that pro bodybuilders use). [/quote]

I wasn’t referring to whether pro’s train right for pro’s. Where did you get that ideas from? Your previous post implied that someone like Phil Heath would recommend his 20 set shoulder routine to a beginner, just because it’s a split. But yes, I AM advocating training like a bodybuilder, if someone’s goal is to fucking look like one. Why shouldn’t they? Because some pro is doing 20 sets and this apparently dictates the amount of work everyone should be doing?

I made this thread because I was sick of hearing posts like yours which give the impression that my body will simply avoid adding muscle if I train on a split because the pro’s do it.

Not everyone has to start with Rippetoes or some other tbt program if their goal is to build muscle. This is my last post here and I hope this thread can die, but I know that this actual argument probably never will.

87

Why is it that the phrase “train like a pro” automatically means set for set, rep for rep exactly duplicating some random pro bodybuilders training routine?

Is that what some of you think when you see that advice here?

Is it not possible that “train like a pro” just may mean “split your body up over 3-5 days in order to give more attention to each muscle than total-body-training allows”?

The key word here is “like” not “exactly copy”. At the age of 38, I wouldn’t think that would need an explaination.

And the part about bodybuilders not doing the big, compound lifts? Are you (whoever wrote that) fucking serious?

88

[quote]monatu wrote:
Hey guys
serious question

Ive read so much that says that hitting a body part with such low frequency (1x a week) does not work very well for strength or size for people who are not on steroids. I dont have an article to link offhand but im sure you have all heard/read this as well. I was wondering what your take on it is.

I have used Upper/Lower splits in the past (WS4SB) and TBT splits (Madcow’s 5x5, currently on Bigger,Faster,Stronger). I have never used bodypart splits and was wondering, for the future, on their effectiveness for a natural lifter.
Would something like:

Day 1 - Chest, Triceps, Shoulders
Day 2 - Back, Legs, Biceps
Day 4 - Same as day 1
Day 5 - Same as day 2

Be superior (hitting each part 2x a week) to a split that had something like:

Day 1 - Chest
Day 2 - Legs
Day 3 - Back
Day 4 - Shoulders, Traps
Day 5 - Arms

Also, where would you put things like Power/Hang Cleans, if you did a body part split?[/quote]

hey, I’ll try to give you some help.

Monday:
Deadlift<-- if you can’t DL/hang clean in the same session drop one.
hang cleans
face pulls
cable rows
chins

Tueday:
incline or flat bb bench
dumbell press (or a fly if you don’t use your chest much benching)
side raises
front raises

Thursday:
Squat
leg press or hack squats
hamstring movement
calves

Friday:
preacher curls
pinwheels
close grip bench press/high board press
tri extentions

just IMO…

89

[quote]derek wrote:
Why is it that the phrase “train like a pro” automatically means set for set, rep for rep exactly duplicating some random pro bodybuilders training routine?

Is that what some of you think when you see that advice here?

Is it not possible that “train like a pro” just may mean “split your body up over 3-5 days in order to give more attention to each muscle than total-body-training allows”?

The key word here is “like” not “exactly copy”. At the age of 38, I wouldn’t think that would need an explaination.

And the part about bodybuilders not doing the big, compound lifts? Are you (whoever wrote that) fucking serious?[/quote]

Well…if they admit that, they won’t have anything left to argue about.

They will have to admit that their TBT love may be a little unwarranted and maybe, just MAYBE, if you simply can’t grow off of a split routine, you don’t have the genetics to do very well at this to begin with.

90

[quote]Professor X wrote:
… and maybe, just MAYBE, if you simply can’t grow off of a split routine, you don’t have the genetics to do very well at this to begin with.[/quote]

I’d go as far as to say that if you really can’t grow off a split, then either you have set your split up in the most idiotic way possible or you are doing something else wrong (eating too little, not sleeping, not training with intensity, not lifting the heaviest fucking slag iron that you can do with decent form…)

In that case you wouldn’t get anything out of tbt anway… No training style or template can help you if you don’t do the basic stuff we all need to grow…

Unless have no myostatin, of course.

91

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

Well how did you do on your Upper/Lower Split versus TBT? What does your body look like? How long have you been lifting?

These are questions for you to think about. If your after overall size and you grew alot on upper/lower go back to it or try a full split for a while to see if you gain or lose. If you grew more with TBT go back to that.
If you have a weakness increase the frequency and or volume of that body part.
I have a tough time recovering from leg workouts so once a week is enough for me, occasionally twice, but that is more because I can’t run or move my legs when playing sports. The rest of my bodyparts I hit 2-3 times.

What are you doing power/hang cleans for?[/quote]

power/hang cleans for Sport. I play rugby. Yeh I know, upper/lower or TBT is better for sports but was just inquiring about body part splits.
I was thinking of a periodized type program (I know, “periodization doesn’t work”) where the first 6-7 weeks would be hypertrophy focused (5 day Body part split or something like that) before moving on to Upper/Lower and TBT as the season approaches and I want to focus more on strength/explosiveness. Was just an idea i was throwing around for furture offseasons (Im doing BFS currently this offseason)

92

[quote]monatu wrote:
Airtruth wrote:

Well how did you do on your Upper/Lower Split versus TBT? What does your body look like? How long have you been lifting?

These are questions for you to think about. If your after overall size and you grew alot on upper/lower go back to it or try a full split for a while to see if you gain or lose. If you grew more with TBT go back to that.
If you have a weakness increase the frequency and or volume of that body part.
I have a tough time recovering from leg workouts so once a week is enough for me, occasionally twice, but that is more because I can’t run or move my legs when playing sports. The rest of my bodyparts I hit 2-3 times.

What are you doing power/hang cleans for?

power/hang cleans for Sport. I play rugby. Yeh I know, upper/lower or TBT is better for sports but was just inquiring about body part splits.
I was thinking of a periodized type program (I know, “periodization doesn’t work”) where the first 6-7 weeks would be hypertrophy focused (5 day Body part split or something like that) before moving on to Upper/Lower and TBT as the season approaches and I want to focus more on strength/explosiveness. Was just an idea i was throwing around for furture offseasons (Im doing BFS currently this offseason)

[/quote]

Imo the only thing TBT has on splits for sport is that you cna include a lot more OLY lifting, but this is the wrong section for that.