Bodybuilder on Dr. Phil

Off Topic
121

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

Or dad should get his ass up at 3 am and go to the gym for his personal time.[/quote]

Thank god for 24hr Fitness!!

Even then, Wifey will still not be happy!
[/quote]

Damage is done here and this will end badly for them and kids.

Having personal goals and self centered desires are not a bad thing in life, however being an adult and married with children is knowing how to juggle both. I get up at 4:15 4 days during the work week, so I can work out and then get to work. Cause the rest of my day is work and then family. [/quote]

I’m not disagreeing with that.

However, the way the show presented the husband like the bad guy is annoyingly funny. I feel this way maybe 'cos I’m a dedicated athlete myself and I’m irked by the skewed view that people, especially people who don’t train, have of dedicated fitness people.

I’m not married, I ain’t got kids so, probably my priorities will change in the future (NOT!! lol) but I know many married husbands and wives who’ve managed to find a balance between their family life and fitness career/hobby.

I seriously don’t see anything wrong with what that guy does. He’s a dedicated bodybuilder. He’s doing exactly what most guys on the bodybuilding forum do, (posing, supplementing, spending 2 hrs or more at the gym, competing etc). How on earth is this affecting his kids? He doesn’t see them during weekends too?? Sorry something is missing there. I’ll support a woman when I feel she needs support but in this case, the wife is equally guilty of shitting on her marriage.

I’ll be interested to know if she would feel the same had her husband spent more time working late, sat at his office, ordering pizza, getting big and fat, in order to pay the mortgage. I bet she wouldn’t mind. She even said in the video that it wouldn’t bother her if he gained a bit of weight. Lol.

He’s looking better than he ever. He’s younger than her. She’s not getting any younger and that’s the main issue right there. She needs to stop blaming it on bodybuilding. LOL.

[/quote]

I cant see video so I am just going off every ones discussion.

122

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I guess I don’t specifically know his vows, but that would be an oral contract. Sertainly, respecting and supporting and being a father is implicit. When the state checks the validity of marriages for green cards, those things are required.[/quote]

?? Since when are you forced to agree to have and take care of kids in marriage vows?

[/quote]
I’m not sure what to say, but yes, you are. You get her pregnant and you are obligated to be a father.
[/quote]

Wait a second, are you seriously saying that in order to get married you HAVE to have kids? I am getting married in just over 2 months and nobody told me this. My fiance and I have zero desire to have kids, ever. Does that mean that we will not be allowed to get married since we will not agree to have kids or will my marriage be annulled after a certain time if we do not produce children?

Also, I know for a fact that there is no children requirement or obligation to get a permanent resident card for your spouse, and eventually citizenship after the 3 year (or 5 year if the spouse was previously living in the US and is filing for citizenship immediately after getting married) residency requirement is met and the two year probationary period after the marriage is met. There is actually no interview or investigation at all until near the end of the 2 year probationary period, and only if the paper evidence, such as proof of joint accounts and loans, residence and such, are deemed insufficient.[/quote]

never said anything about having to have kids.[/quote]

Then what did you mean by this:

In reference to the specific situation, he already had a kid. And then decided to have more. If you have kids, you are required to be a father. A therefore B, does not dictate B therefore A.

123

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

I cant see video so I am just going off every ones discussion. [/quote]

Oh sorry.

I forgot about that.

124

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I guess I don’t specifically know his vows, but that would be an oral contract. Sertainly, respecting and supporting and being a father is implicit. When the state checks the validity of marriages for green cards, those things are required.[/quote]

?? Since when are you forced to agree to have and take care of kids in marriage vows?

[/quote]
I’m not sure what to say, but yes, you are. You get her pregnant and you are obligated to be a father.
[/quote]

Wait a second, are you seriously saying that in order to get married you HAVE to have kids? I am getting married in just over 2 months and nobody told me this. My fiance and I have zero desire to have kids, ever. Does that mean that we will not be allowed to get married since we will not agree to have kids or will my marriage be annulled after a certain time if we do not produce children?

[/quote]

Of course you don’t have to have kids to be married. However if you DO have kids (like the couple in question) you’re kind of expected to look after them. Both morally and legally. Of course legally you can only enforce the monetary aspect, but morally you are expected to actually CARE for, as in spend time with, pay attention to etc. your kids.

Is this a serious counter-argument?

125

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I guess I don’t specifically know his vows, but that would be an oral contract. Sertainly, respecting and supporting and being a father is implicit. When the state checks the validity of marriages for green cards, those things are required.[/quote]

?? Since when are you forced to agree to have and take care of kids in marriage vows?

[/quote]
I’m not sure what to say, but yes, you are. You get her pregnant and you are obligated to be a father.
[/quote]

Wait a second, are you seriously saying that in order to get married you HAVE to have kids? I am getting married in just over 2 months and nobody told me this. My fiance and I have zero desire to have kids, ever. Does that mean that we will not be allowed to get married since we will not agree to have kids or will my marriage be annulled after a certain time if we do not produce children?

Also, I know for a fact that there is no children requirement or obligation to get a permanent resident card for your spouse, and eventually citizenship after the 3 year (or 5 year if the spouse was previously living in the US and is filing for citizenship immediately after getting married) residency requirement is met and the two year probationary period after the marriage is met. There is actually no interview or investigation at all until near the end of the 2 year probationary period, and only if the paper evidence, such as proof of joint accounts and loans, residence and such, are deemed insufficient.[/quote]

never said anything about having to have kids.[/quote]

Then what did you mean by this:

In reference to the specific situation, he already had a kid. And then decided to have more. If you have kids, you are required to be a father. A therefore B, does not dictate B therefore A.[/quote]

But what does that have to do with his marriage vows, or immigration?

126

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I guess I don’t specifically know his vows, but that would be an oral contract. Sertainly, respecting and supporting and being a father is implicit. When the state checks the validity of marriages for green cards, those things are required.[/quote]

?? Since when are you forced to agree to have and take care of kids in marriage vows?

[/quote]
I’m not sure what to say, but yes, you are. You get her pregnant and you are obligated to be a father.
[/quote]

Wait a second, are you seriously saying that in order to get married you HAVE to have kids? I am getting married in just over 2 months and nobody told me this. My fiance and I have zero desire to have kids, ever. Does that mean that we will not be allowed to get married since we will not agree to have kids or will my marriage be annulled after a certain time if we do not produce children?

Also, I know for a fact that there is no children requirement or obligation to get a permanent resident card for your spouse, and eventually citizenship after the 3 year (or 5 year if the spouse was previously living in the US and is filing for citizenship immediately after getting married) residency requirement is met and the two year probationary period after the marriage is met. There is actually no interview or investigation at all until near the end of the 2 year probationary period, and only if the paper evidence, such as proof of joint accounts and loans, residence and such, are deemed insufficient.[/quote]

never said anything about having to have kids.[/quote]

Then what did you mean by this:

In reference to the specific situation, he already had a kid. And then decided to have more. If you have kids, you are required to be a father. A therefore B, does not dictate B therefore A.[/quote]

But what does that have to do with his marriage vows, or immigration?
[/quote]

Part of marriage is being a father if you knock up your wife? You really don’t think your marriage vow has any weight in being a father and husband if you have kids?

Immigration was just noting that the legal verification of marriage goes beyond a contract being signed.

127

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I guess I don’t specifically know his vows, but that would be an oral contract. Sertainly, respecting and supporting and being a father is implicit. When the state checks the validity of marriages for green cards, those things are required.[/quote]

?? Since when are you forced to agree to have and take care of kids in marriage vows?

[/quote]
I’m not sure what to say, but yes, you are. You get her pregnant and you are obligated to be a father.
[/quote]

Wait a second, are you seriously saying that in order to get married you HAVE to have kids? I am getting married in just over 2 months and nobody told me this. My fiance and I have zero desire to have kids, ever. Does that mean that we will not be allowed to get married since we will not agree to have kids or will my marriage be annulled after a certain time if we do not produce children?

[/quote]

Of course you don’t have to have kids to be married. However if you DO have kids (like the couple in question) you’re kind of expected to look after them. Both morally and legally. Of course legally you can only enforce the monetary aspect, but morally you are expected to actually CARE for, as in spend time with, pay attention to etc. your kids.

Is this a serious counter-argument?
[/quote]

Counter argument to what? I haven’t stated my opinion on the Dr. Phil segment. I was specifically addressing the part about marriage having anything to do with being required to have kids or become a US citizen.

128

Please, can you at least shorten the quotes?

I beg you!!!

129

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Part of marriage is being a father if you knock up your wife?[/quote]

No, otherwise couples who have kids would not be allowed to get divorced. Being a father comes from having kids and being a husband comes from getting married. The two are separate, hence two different words. You can be a husband or you can be a father and you can be both, but you do not have to be a husband and a father together. You can stop being a husband (divorce, death, annulment, etc) but if you have kids, you are still a father. The same is true for single parents, if you knock up a girl and you do not get married, you are still a father.

130

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Please, can you at least shorten the quotes?

I beg you!!![/quote]

Better?

131

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Please, can you at least shorten the quotes?

I beg you!!![/quote]

Better?[/quote]

Thank you :slight_smile:

132

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Part of marriage is being a father if you knock up your wife?[/quote]

No, otherwise couples who have kids would not be allowed to get divorced. Being a father comes from having kids and being a husband comes from getting married. The two are separate, hence two different words. You can be a husband or you can be a father and you can be both, but you do not have to be a husband and a father together. You can stop being a husband (divorce, death, annulment, etc) but if you have kids, you are still a father. The same is true for single parents, if you knock up a girl and you do not get married, you are still a father.[/quote]

None of that matters for my point. You can be a father and not a husband. But you cannot be a husband (who has kids with his wife) and not be a father. His vow was to be a husband. He had kids. A requirement of that vow to be a husband is to be a father. If he isn’t being a father, he is violating his vow to be a husband. I can do this out in A therefore B statements too if it will help. Hah.

They have distinct meanings, but they are one way dependent.

133

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Part of marriage is being a father if you knock up your wife?[/quote]

No, otherwise couples who have kids would not be allowed to get divorced. Being a father comes from having kids and being a husband comes from getting married. The two are separate, hence two different words. You can be a husband or you can be a father and you can be both, but you do not have to be a husband and a father together. You can stop being a husband (divorce, death, annulment, etc) but if you have kids, you are still a father. The same is true for single parents, if you knock up a girl and you do not get married, you are still a father.[/quote]

None of that matters for my point. You can be a father and not a husband. But you cannot be a husband (who has kids with his wife) and not be a father. His vow was to be a husband. He had kids. A requirement of that vow to be a husband is to be a father. If he isn’t being a father, he is violating his vow to be a husband. I can do this out in A therefore B statements too if it will help. Hah.

They have distinct means, but they are one way dependent.[/quote]

You can do all the A therefore B statements you want, but most marriage vows do not mention children (I know that mine will not), and none of the laws defining marriage in the US require married couples to have children, so unless these two made their own vows that specifically said anything about children, this statement:

is false.

134

I think DD is speaking from a position of morality and the others are speaking in technical terms.

135

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

A requirement of that vow to be a husband is to be a father.[/quote]

is false. [/quote]

So if one has children with one’s wife, you believe that one’s vows as a husband (i.e. “love, honour and cherish”) would not extend to providing care and support for those children?

136

[quote]batman730 wrote:

So if one has children with one’s wife, you believe that one’s vows as a husband (i.e. “love, honour and cherish”) would not extend to providing care and support for those children?
[/quote]

No, because if that were the case then when a husband and wife get divorced, would not the man remain a father and still be obligated to provide care and support for his children? I would say yes, he is still obligated to.

What about the men who have never been married, and thus never taken marriage vows who have kids? Are they exempt from providing care and support for their children? No, they are still obligated. Being a father and being a husband are two separate things. Take me for instance: in a couple months I will be a husband, but I will likely never be a father, but if we do happen to have kids, my obligations to my kids will not depend on or have anything to do with my marriage vows, which will not mention children at all.

137

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

So if one has children with one’s wife, you believe that one’s vows as a husband (i.e. “love, honour and cherish”) would not extend to providing care and support for those children?
[/quote]

No, because if that were the case then when a husband and wife get divorced, would not the man remain a father and still be obligated to provide care and support for his children? I would say yes, he is still obligated to.

What about the men who have never been married, and thus never taken marriage vows who have kids? Are they exempt from providing care and support for their children? No, they are still obligated. Being a father and being a husband are two separate things. Take me for instance: in a couple months I will be a husband, but I will likely never be a father, but if we do happen to have kids, my obligations to my kids will not depend on or have anything to do with my marriage vows, which will not mention children at all.
[/quote]

You’re not getting it. If you’re married and you have kids, then part of being a good husband is caring for and helping out with the kids. It helps take some of the burden off your wife.

138

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

So if one has children with one’s wife, you believe that one’s vows as a husband (i.e. “love, honour and cherish”) would not extend to providing care and support for those children?
[/quote]

No, because if that were the case then when a husband and wife get divorced, would not the man remain a father and still be obligated to provide care and support for his children? I would say yes, he is still obligated to.

What about the men who have never been married, and thus never taken marriage vows who have kids? Are they exempt from providing care and support for their children? No, they are still obligated. Being a father and being a husband are two separate things. Take me for instance: in a couple months I will be a husband, but I will likely never be a father, but if we do happen to have kids, my obligations to my kids will not depend on or have anything to do with my marriage vows, which will not mention children at all.
[/quote]

You’re not getting it. If you’re married and you have kids, then part of being a good husband is caring for and helping out with the kids. It helps take some of the burden off your wife.[/quote]

What I am saying is that those duties exist whether one is married or not. The unmarried father has just as much obligation to raise his kids as the married one. The phrase “help out with the kids” seems to me to imply that it is primarily the woman’s role to raise the kids, and men just help out occasionally, but that is not the way I see it. Both parents have an equal obligation to provide for their kid’s needs, both financially and emotionally. How the parents split up the work is up to them, but it does not matter if they are married or not, the obligation is there all the same.

139

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

So if one has children with one’s wife, you believe that one’s vows as a husband (i.e. “love, honour and cherish”) would not extend to providing care and support for those children?
[/quote]

No, because if that were the case then when a husband and wife get divorced, would not the man remain a father and still be obligated to provide care and support for his children? I would say yes, he is still obligated to.

What about the men who have never been married, and thus never taken marriage vows who have kids? Are they exempt from providing care and support for their children? No, they are still obligated. Being a father and being a husband are two separate things. Take me for instance: in a couple months I will be a husband, but I will likely never be a father, but if we do happen to have kids, my obligations to my kids will not depend on or have anything to do with my marriage vows, which will not mention children at all.
[/quote]

You’re not getting it. If you’re married and you have kids, then part of being a good husband is caring for and helping out with the kids. It helps take some of the burden off your wife.[/quote]

What I am saying is that those duties exist whether one is married or not. The unmarried father has just as much obligation to raise his kids as the married one. The phrase “help out with the kids” seems to me to imply that it is primarily the woman’s role to raise the kids, and men just help out occasionally, but that is not the way I see it. Both parents have an equal obligation to provide for their kid’s needs, both financially and emotionally. How the parents split up the work is up to them, but it does not matter if they are married or not, the obligation is there all the same.
[/quote]

No, it’s much different if the parents are not married. They don’t have to do things together. If it’s the divorced mom’s turn to have the kids that week and she’s having a hard time with the kids she can’t call the dad and expect for him to come over and lend emotional support. If they are married however, he certainly has a duty as a husband to take some of that burden and give her the support she needs.

140

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

So if one has children with one’s wife, you believe that one’s vows as a husband (i.e. “love, honour and cherish”) would not extend to providing care and support for those children?
[/quote]

No, because if that were the case then when a husband and wife get divorced, would not the man remain a father and still be obligated to provide care and support for his children? I would say yes, he is still obligated to.

What about the men who have never been married, and thus never taken marriage vows who have kids? Are they exempt from providing care and support for their children? No, they are still obligated. Being a father and being a husband are two separate things. Take me for instance: in a couple months I will be a husband, but I will likely never be a father, but if we do happen to have kids, my obligations to my kids will not depend on or have anything to do with my marriage vows, which will not mention children at all.
[/quote]

I can discharge my legal responsibility to provide “care” for my daughter simply by stroking a cheque each month until her 18th birthday. That fulfills the legal definition of “support” and is all the state would require of me as a “father” if I opted for divorce. That’s not really what I’m talking about and it’s not being a father.

Conversely, I could still care for and nurture my daughter emotionally and financially as a father if I chose to dissolve my marriage and ceased to be a husband.

However, If I left my wife alone to tend to both the daily practical and emotional needs of our daughter while I pursued my own interests, but I continued to fulfill my financial obligations and refrained from engaging spousal abuse or infidelity, I suppose I would satisfy the technical requirements of my marriage vows, but really not the spirit in which they were intended IMO. As such I would be failing to honour my implied agreement or promise as a husband.

Again, I’m not saying that you have to be a father at all to be a good husband. However if you DO have kids it becomes pretty difficult not to do the father part and remain a good husband. Is this really so far-fetched?

I suppose it is difficult to lay out a legal definition for “love”,