Body Part Split or Total Body

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
A beginner, whether a strength oriented person or a bodybuilder, should be on a total body routine. As CT once said in previous articles, a beginner needs to “learn” how to use his muscles. Only after this can he be successful with a split routine. I followed a TBT program as a beginner and grew like a weed for months. Now I follow a 4 way split.

You just said “I seem to grow better on a 5 day split than on a TBT routine”. Doesn’t this answer your own question?![/quote]

No. Why can’t people understand this? There are other reasons why you might want to incorporate fullbody from time to time: time contraints, boredom and enjoying the switch to that kind of training, it uses a lot of muscle and has metabolic benefits and can be great during dieting, athletic pursuits that make it difficult and possibly counterproductive to train with weights 4-5 days a week. Some people insist that fullbody actually produces better gains which I disagree with. But I think there’d be a lot less fights over this issue if people could understand that absolutely maximum growth in the minimum time is not ALWAYS the goal of all people.

[quote]Mr. Strong wrote:

Squats, Dips and Chins leaves nothing untouched, you can hit everything with maximum intensity every workout, you don’t need isolation movements. You can do more exercises in each session if you wanted to.
[/quote]

Oh boy, here we go again…

First, unless you are just an absolute freak and every single muscle in your body grows at the exact same rate, then yes, you DO need isolation movements. Even beginner programs like “Starting Strength” incorporate isolation movements.

Second, squats, dips and chins leave out quite a few muscles. There is no upper or middle trap involvement (unless you are pulling down to behind your head, then there is some middle trap involvement), there is no calf work to speak of, there is very little if any hip abductor/adductor work. No brachioradialis (if you do “chins” specifically) work.

And even if you could hit everything doing compounds, there is gonna come a point in time when you aren’t going to be able to keep up with the demands of doing all of your big compound lifts in one session. Yeah, you can probably cope with a 135 bench, 200 squat, and 250 deadlift session fairly well. But try doing a 400 bench, 500 squat and 600 deadlift for reps, all in the same session week in and week out. You couldn’t, you’d burn yourself out in no time flat, and also most likely find it impossible to improve on those lifts.

Most BB’ing trainers (heck most athletic trainers), and the vast vast majority of athletes (BB’ing or otherwise) have long since realized this and as a result favor split routines. Westside is a split, DC is a split, Poliquin uses splits with his athletes (even though I think the guy is a couple grapes short of a fruit salad he still knows what he’s doing), 95% of all Olympia competitors use splits, and the list goes on.

Don’t you think there might be a reason for that?

Like some of us have said in this thread (and countless times in the past) for beginners TBT is fine, probably a good choice. JSBrook brought up the issues of time constraints and other extenuating factors which could also make TBT a better choice in certain circumstances. But once you pass that beginner stage, and assuming your goal is to build as much muscle as possible in the shortest time frame (your goal is BB’ing), then splits are far and away the better choice for the huge majority of people.

Carl, are you trolling?

Actually some really rational answers so far.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:

Squats, Dips and Chins leaves nothing untouched, you can hit everything with maximum intensity every workout, you don’t need isolation movements. You can do more exercises in each session if you wanted to.

Oh boy, here we go again…

First, unless you are just an absolute freak and every single muscle in your body grows at the exact same rate, then yes, you DO need isolation movements. Even beginner programs like “Starting Strength” incorporate isolation movements.

Second, squats, dips and chins leave out quite a few muscles. There is no upper or middle trap involvement (unless you are pulling down to behind your head, then there is some middle trap involvement), there is no calf work to speak of, there is very little if any hip abductor/adductor work. No brachioradialis (if you do “chins” specifically) work.

And even if you could hit everything doing compounds, there is gonna come a point in time when you aren’t going to be able to keep up with the demands of doing all of your big compound lifts in one session. Yeah, you can probably cope with a 135 bench, 200 squat, and 250 deadlift session fairly well. But try doing a 400 bench, 500 squat and 600 deadlift for reps, all in the same session week in and week out. You couldn’t, you’d burn yourself out in no time flat, and also most likely find it impossible to improve on those lifts.

Most BB’ing trainers (heck most athletic trainers), and the vast vast majority of athletes (BB’ing or otherwise) have long since realized this and as a result favor split routines. Westside is a split, DC is a split, Poliquin uses splits with his athletes (even though I think the guy is a couple grapes short of a fruit salad he still knows what he’s doing), 95% of all Olympia competitors use splits, and the list goes on.

Don’t you think there might be a reason for that?

Like some of us have said in this thread (and countless times in the past) for beginners TBT is fine, probably a good choice. JSBrook brought up the issues of time constraints and other extenuating factors which could also make TBT a better choice in certain circumstances. But once you pass that beginner stage, and assuming your goal is to build as much muscle as possible in the shortest time frame (your goal is BB’ing), then splits are far and away the better choice for the huge majority of people.[/quote]

Agreed. But I would add that full-body training does not preclude isolation movements. I always do direct shoulder, chest, and armwork whenever I do use full-body training. Still, it can be hard to ensure optimal growth of all muscle groups on a full-body program. For example, my chest lags and needs a lot of attention to grow optimally. Sometimes, I’ll train it 2x a week even on a split. And it requires heavy cable work and various other techniques in addition to compound work to optimally grow. It’s very hard to do this after an intense fullbody workout.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

Agreed. But I would add that full-body training does not preclude isolation movements. I always do direct shoulder, chest, and armwork whenever I do use full-body training. Still, it can be hard to ensure optimal growth of all muscle groups on a full-body program. For example, my chest lags and needs a lot of attention to grow optimally. Sometimes, I’ll train it 2x a week even on a split. And it requires heavy cable work and various other techniques in addition to compound work to optimally grow. It’s very hard to do this after an intense fullbody workout.
[/quote]

I agree, a split (or TBT) is a way of organizing the exercises that you do through the week, its not what determines which exercises you should do.

Honestly i believe that the split used is much more a personal preference and scheudle, and dont matters that much to the result… If consider the importance of nutrition, effort, exercise selection, proper training-rest ratio, knowing when to push and when to back off(periodization), how much difference the choice of split vs TBT can make in the long term?

[quote]Mr. Strong wrote:

Squats, Dips and Chins leaves nothing untouched
[/quote]

do you think using this one would see good growth on their lateral deltoids and calves?

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

You just said “I seem to grow better on a 5 day split than on a TBT routine”. Doesn’t this answer your own question?![/quote]

In fact it doesn’t. My question was “so whats the deal am i the anomaly or is total body training crap for putting on size for most people?”

I’m not asking so that i can choose a program for myself… i know 5 day splits work better for me.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I prefer split training and find it yields the most growth. However, I will still use fullbody sometimes. I will go back to it because I enjoy training that way. Because I find there are metabolic benefits. I find it a great way to train when focused on fat loss and muscle maintenance rather than gains are the goal. It can boost fitness when done right. That’s about it. From a pure gains perspective, I think splits work better once you’ve built a solid base. But I still do grow on fullbody when that is the goal, even if not quite as well.[/quote]

This describes my thoughts on the situation pretty well

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

Agreed. But I would add that full-body training does not preclude isolation movements. I always do direct shoulder, chest, and armwork whenever I do use full-body training. Still, it can be hard to ensure optimal growth of all muscle groups on a full-body program. For example, my chest lags and needs a lot of attention to grow optimally. Sometimes, I’ll train it 2x a week even on a split. And it requires heavy cable work and various other techniques in addition to compound work to optimally grow. It’s very hard to do this after an intense fullbody workout.
[/quote]

Yes, you are right, and I didn’t mean to make it sound like TBT programs couldn’t include isolation work as well (I actually mentioned that Rippetoe’s program involves isolation work). I was more responding to the comment that you don’t need isolation work.

[quote]Mr. Strong wrote:

Squats, Dips and Chins leaves nothing untouched, you can hit everything with maximum intensity every workout, you don’t need isolation movements. You can do more exercises in each session if you wanted to.[/quote]

I will not be able to reach my body’s max potential with those three exercises alone, and I will not be able to put all my concentration into a particular muscle group if i’m training every muscle in one session. I also would not have fully developed physique without isolation movements. Long story short, in bodybuilding TBT < Split Training.