Black Teen Shot by Neighborhood Watch

This post is from the crazy bitch in class thread:. I thought my response would be more appropriate here.

[quote]viper0213 wrote:
Get it right Zimmerman reffered to trevoryn as a coon.[/quote]

Has this been confirmed or is it speculation based on poor quality audio from people listening to the call to prove racist intent?

I hear the “fuckin”, but the next word sounds like it clearly begins with a p rather than a c.

The last consonant also sounds closer to a k than an n. MAYBE a t.

If anything, it sounds like he is saying “fuckin’ pooks” to me.

Google informs me that an audio expert for WFTV determined that the word said was “punks.”

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]

If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]

I don’t even know why people continue to ignore this.[/quote]

I would agree with this. Had it been reversed, a black shooter probably would’ve been arrested immediately if not also beaten in the process. At least with this particular Florida police force, from the sound of it.

However, if it happened in the reverse, noone would have thought it was due to race, either. People only seem to think racism is involved when a white person does something.

Has Zimmerman been arrested yet?

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:
The only thing I desire is to at least acknowledge the possibility that it could have been due to other reasons as well instead of always being quick to pull the race card. If you acknowledge that there are other possiblities, then at that point, it is wrong to accuse him of racial profiling because accusations shouldn’t be made when you don’t know all the details in any situation. It’s that simple. Nothing elitist about that in my opinion.[/quote]

[quote]TDub301 wrote:
…while you simply continue to keep jumping to the same conclusion when you don’t know all the details (admittedly, more details have come out recently that give more evidence that it WAS racially charged).[/quote]

Exactly. The POINT all along was that there wasn’t enough evidence at varying points of the discussion to justify the lynch mob mentality.

The quality of the discussion in this thread declined EXTREMELY sharply once those people participating in the circle jerk got a little more traction with one another. Nonsensical posts about John White, Emmett Till and “people in this thread being more respectful now that there is more than one black guy posting” all accomplished nothing but shift this from a fairly respectful discussion to a total cluster fuck… and they were all so caught up in an “honest people vs closet racists” mentality that they didn’t have the intellectual honesty to call out one another for their bullshit analogies, irrelevant commentary and shit reading comprehension in order to keep the discourse at even an even MODERATELY entertaining level.

It’s remarkable to see witness how quickly this discussion devolved once enough people started using it as an emotional outlet rather than a place to toss around evidence-based opinions.[/quote]

The funny thing is that they’ll probably all come back now that I’ve said this cuz I fell behind and this will all start full-circle again for the 10th time.

[quote]TDub301 wrote:
Has Zimmerman been arrested yet?[/quote]

No.

But the police chief just stepped down.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]

If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]

I don’t even know why people continue to ignore this.[/quote]
Because it is bullshit conjecture.[/quote]

Right. It isn’t even worth responding to you anymore.[/quote]
The truth hurts I guess.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]The Florida version of the law, backed with the support of the National Rifle Assn., was passed in 2005. According to the Associated Press, Florida Department of Law Enforcement statistics show that, before the law was enacted, there were about 13 so-called justified killings each year by citizens from 2000 to 2005. Between 2006 and 2010, the average has risen to 36 justified killings each year.

Some state lawmakers have already begun to question whether the Florida law is too broad, saying they’re considering legislation that would redefine the grounds under which self-defense could be claimed.[/quote]

Justified killings grew about 3 times since this law went into affect.

I think the question now is, who is being killed?[/quote]
People whose deaths are justified.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

Are you serious? Rap has been around since the late 70’s and the specific motion or "style we speak of has been present since before Micheal Jackson was grabbing his crotch and Moon Walking.

Anyone still using CULTURAL DIFFERENCES as signs of CRIMINAL ACTIVITY is seeing the world through bigoted eyes…whether they admit it or not.

That is why people in this thread can state that a black male with a hood on is SUSPICIOUS yet turn right around and act like it had nothing to do with race.

People see what they WANT to see. To claim someone has been blind to rap for 40 years is ridiculous. They see it as a negative…and then use that negative stereotype and apply it to people so they can avoid “being racist”…yet doing the exact same thing as a “CULTURALIST”.[/quote]

So you’ve never met a person that literally knows dick about rap? including how they dress?

Do you hang around any white people at all? If so, do you ever talk to any of their parents?

I’m willing to bet my own parents can count the number of rap videos they’ve seen on their fingers and these are people who live in PG County, a predominantly black county right outside of NE DC with a son who has a half-black son with a black woman and whose friends are mostly black. We even started a damn rap group when we were younger.

Still with all that, I’m positive that my parents would only be aware of that style of clothing because of the area they live in, not because they saw any rap videos or pictures of rappers. It isn’t ridiculous at all to think someone literally knows nothing about rap. It’s a genre of music that can easily be avoided if there’s no interest in it. It isn’t forced down anyone’s throat to the point where they definitely know anything about it at all.

Besides, rappers portray themselves as law-breakers in almost every song they make and glorify it, so why is it so hard to believe that seeing someone who dresses and acts like someone who professes in their music that they break the law on the regular (or at least claims to in order to get street cred) looks suspicious?

This is giving me the impression that you want and expect white people to be racist until proven otherwise.

You’ve already said yourself that that look is age specific. Not exactly the same as a cultural difference. I see young people of all races dressing like this every day (to be fair, it’s probably due to the area I live in).

Who said that a black person wearing a hoody looks supsicious? Zimmerman even gave more details about it. He may have been making them up, that’s certainly possible, since lately he has been looking pretty racist. But he didn’t call the police and say “a black guy in a hoddie is walking around”. He gave a lot more detail than that, I’ve heard the tapes. He commented on how he was walking slow in the rain and looking into houses with his hand in his waistband. Yes, there’s reasonable explanations for this and it wouldn’t look suspicious to me either, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t look legitimately suspicious to literally ANYONE.

Once again, suspicion is in the eye of the beholder. Just because it doesn’t look suspicious to you doesn’t mean you can jump down on someone because it looks that way to them.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

Complexity theory does not work that way.[/quote]

I watched about 10 minutes of one episode of Numbers and turned it off. There was so much blatantly false crap that I couldn’t stand it. I get that the show is made for the general population, most of which do not know much about these things but they could at least try not to make up blatantly false information for their show.
[/quote]

It would serverely limit their ability to come up with new episodes after a short while. I don’t know dick about any math beyond basic calculus, but even I knew that a lot if not most of the “math” they do in Numbers is horse-shit. The way he’d come up with ways to predict things or solve crimes seemed very far-fetched to me. But hey, I do think it’s an entertaining show. Maybe a good way for you to look at it positively is to know that it could potentially bring more people to start studying it. That would be good, right?[/quote]

I hope so man, people not wanting to take higher math classes/getting technical degrees like engineering/hard sciences is a huge problem. When I started teaching at my current university over 10 years ago, a standard class size for a basic calculus sequence was around 400 students. Now, a class size of 200 students is about average and the sequence has not changed.
[/quote]

I wonder what implications this has for IQ testing…

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.

Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.

The neighborhood was mixed.

And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.

This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it[/quote]

He could’ve just been checking his zipper. If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he said that he was walking with his hand in his waistband. This would give me the impression that he probably was holding his pants up because the tea was weighing them down, like X said earlier.

But until you know why, you can only guess. Noone has X-ray vision to see why his hand is in his waistband, all you can do is guess. It’s not out of the question to see someone walking slowly, at night, in the rain, with his hand in his pants, looking around at every house as suspicious. Yes, there’s a legitimate explanation for all of it, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be taken as suspicious looking by anyone. Especially someone who is looking for trouble and off the rocker like Zimmerman.

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.

Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.

The neighborhood was mixed.

And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.

This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it[/quote]

He could’ve just been checking his zipper. If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he said that he was walking with his hand in his waistband. This would give me the impression that he probably was holding his pants up because the tea was weighing them down, like X said earlier.

But until you know why, you can only guess. Noone has X-ray vision to see why his hand is in his waistband, all you can do is guess. It’s not out of the question to see someone walking slowly, at night, in the rain, with his hand in his pants, looking around at every house as suspicious. Yes, there’s a legitimate explanation for all of it, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be taken as suspicious looking by anyone. Especially someone who is looking for trouble and off the rocker like Zimmerman.[/quote]

Zimmerman’s defense hinges on his belief that Tray was armed; no weapon was found on the body, and Zimmerman ended up in a fight with Tray. If Tray was armed with intent to use the weapon, there would have been clear evidence of this. No physical altercation would have ensued: two armed men = gunfight and there was no evidence to support this. If Tray had a gun, he would have shot Zimmerman in his car. Nothing supports the view that Tray was the aggressor. An approach would have allowed Zim to draw his weapon and the facts don’t support this.

Zimmerman willingly stepped out to confront the kid with a holstered weapon.

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.

Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.

The neighborhood was mixed.

And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.

This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it[/quote]

He could’ve just been checking his zipper. If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he said that he was walking with his hand in his waistband. This would give me the impression that he probably was holding his pants up because the tea was weighing them down, like X said earlier.

But until you know why, you can only guess. Noone has X-ray vision to see why his hand is in his waistband, all you can do is guess. It’s not out of the question to see someone walking slowly, at night, in the rain, with his hand in his pants, looking around at every house as suspicious. Yes, there’s a legitimate explanation for all of it, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be taken as suspicious looking by anyone. Especially someone who is looking for trouble and off the rocker like Zimmerman.[/quote]

Zimmerman’s defense hinges on his belief that Tray was armed; no weapon was found on the body, and Zimmerman ended up in a fight with Tray. If Tray was armed with intent to use the weapon, there would have been clear evidence of this. No physical altercation would have ensued: two armed men = gunfight and there was no evidence to support this. If Tray had a gun, he would have shot Zimmerman in his car. Nothing supports the view that Tray was the aggressor. An approach would have allowed Zim to draw his weapon and the facts don’t support this.

Zimmerman willingly stepped out to confront the kid with a holstered weapon.[/quote]

You sure are an expert on shooting people.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.

Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.

The neighborhood was mixed.

And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.

This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it[/quote]

He could’ve just been checking his zipper. If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he said that he was walking with his hand in his waistband. This would give me the impression that he probably was holding his pants up because the tea was weighing them down, like X said earlier.

But until you know why, you can only guess. Noone has X-ray vision to see why his hand is in his waistband, all you can do is guess. It’s not out of the question to see someone walking slowly, at night, in the rain, with his hand in his pants, looking around at every house as suspicious. Yes, there’s a legitimate explanation for all of it, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be taken as suspicious looking by anyone. Especially someone who is looking for trouble and off the rocker like Zimmerman.[/quote]

Zimmerman’s defense hinges on his belief that Tray was armed; no weapon was found on the body, and Zimmerman ended up in a fight with Tray. If Tray was armed with intent to use the weapon, there would have been clear evidence of this. No physical altercation would have ensued: two armed men = gunfight and there was no evidence to support this. If Tray had a gun, he would have shot Zimmerman in his car. Nothing supports the view that Tray was the aggressor. An approach would have allowed Zim to draw his weapon and the facts don’t support this.

Zimmerman willingly stepped out to confront the kid with a holstered weapon.[/quote]

You sure are an expert on shooting people.[/quote]

He’s illustrating a common sense scenario. A hunch.
Sometimes you’re thick as a rock HG.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.

Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.

The neighborhood was mixed.

And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.

This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it[/quote]

He could’ve just been checking his zipper. If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he said that he was walking with his hand in his waistband. This would give me the impression that he probably was holding his pants up because the tea was weighing them down, like X said earlier.

But until you know why, you can only guess. Noone has X-ray vision to see why his hand is in his waistband, all you can do is guess. It’s not out of the question to see someone walking slowly, at night, in the rain, with his hand in his pants, looking around at every house as suspicious. Yes, there’s a legitimate explanation for all of it, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be taken as suspicious looking by anyone. Especially someone who is looking for trouble and off the rocker like Zimmerman.[/quote]

Zimmerman’s defense hinges on his belief that Tray was armed; no weapon was found on the body, and Zimmerman ended up in a fight with Tray. If Tray was armed with intent to use the weapon, there would have been clear evidence of this. No physical altercation would have ensued: two armed men = gunfight and there was no evidence to support this. If Tray had a gun, he would have shot Zimmerman in his car. Nothing supports the view that Tray was the aggressor. An approach would have allowed Zim to draw his weapon and the facts don’t support this.

Zimmerman willingly stepped out to confront the kid with a holstered weapon.[/quote]

You sure are an expert on shooting people.[/quote]

Weird how every observation I’ve made on the case has been verified thus far. That’s the difference between a manipulator of people and an observer of people. Shot any blanks at anyone lately?

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

So you’ve never met a person that literally knows dick about rap? including how they dress?
[/quote]

No, I do not know any people who literally do not know of rap or anything about it. This isn’t 1955. Rap started long enough ago that anyone who literally had not heard it must be over the age of 90 or locked in a basement.

I know people who don’t know shit about country music but they know it when they hear it and they don’t throw some blanketed criminal activity at it and relate it directly to how those singers dress or speak.

Yes, I do…and I don’t know many in Texas who haven’t even heard of rap and don’t know of it. Even the Indian culture around this city is into hip hop to some degree…and their parents know about it too.

[quote]
I’m willing to bet my own parents can count the number of rap videos they’ve seen on their fingers and these are people who live in PG County, a predominantly black county right outside of NE DC with a son who has a half-black son with a black woman and whose friends are mostly black. We even started a damn rap group when we were younger. [/quote]

Doesn’t matter if they count them on one hand. THEY’VE FREAKING SEEN IT OR HEARD IT BEFORE so relating criminal activity to a style that has progressively grown over the last 4 decades is a bigoted act.

[quote]
Still with all that, I’m positive that my parents would only be aware of that style of clothing because of the area they live in, not because they saw any rap videos or pictures of rappers. It isn’t ridiculous at all to think someone literally knows nothing about rap. It’s a genre of music that can easily be avoided if there’s no interest in it. It isn’t forced down anyone’s throat to the point where they definitely know anything about it at all.[/quote]

The same can be said about Country Music. Why are there no styles in that associated directly with crime?

[quote]

Besides, rappers portray themselves as law-breakers in almost every song they make and glorify it, so why is it so hard to believe that seeing someone who dresses and acts like someone who professes in their music that they break the law on the regular (or at least claims to in order to get street cred) looks suspicious? [/quote]

Right…because Kanye West, Jay-Z, Wyclef, Mos Def and Nas are GANGSTER RAPPERS?

LOL!! Mind you, I just mentioned some pretty heavy names in Hip Hop who do not present themselves as law breakers and don’t rap about how they broke the law…unless Jay-z did on some earlier songs.

[quote]

This is giving me the impression that you want and expect white people to be racist until proven otherwise.[/quote]

???That hasn’t even been implied or stated. What was said is that using a culture against those from it as a means of ascribing purely negative stereotypes to an entire group of people has replaced “racism” by allowing it to be “culturalism” instead.

Both do the same thing.

[quote]

You’ve already said yourself that that look is age specific. Not exactly the same as a cultural difference. I see young people of all races dressing like this every day (to be fair, it’s probably due to the area I live in). [/quote]

What? This doesn’t even make sense. You can’t call a style that has grown over 40 years in one community anything BUT a cultural issue at this point. Just because some people do it doesn’t mean everyone needs to in order for it to gain that status.

[quote]

Who said that a black person wearing a hoody looks supsicious?[/quote]

One of the pposters in this thread called the kid SUSPICIOUS based on nothing but a hood and his skin color.

[quote]

Zimmerman even gave more details about it. He may have been making them up, that’s certainly possible, since lately he has been looking pretty racist. But he didn’t call the police and say “a black guy in a hoddie is walking around”. He gave a lot more detail than that, I’ve heard the tapes. He commented on how he was walking slow in the rain and looking into houses with his hand in his waistband. Yes, there’s reasonable explanations for this and it wouldn’t look suspicious to me either, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t look legitimately suspicious to literally ANYONE.[/quote]

?? He said the kid was on drugs. The kid was NOT on drugs. He didn’t even notice he was on the phone…so how is his story even regarded as truth at this point?

[quote]

Once again, suspicion is in the eye of the beholder. Just because it doesn’t look suspicious to you doesn’t mean you can jump down on someone because it looks that way to them.[/quote]

If I am basing that suspicion on race or something one race does more than others out of majority, it is more than some random observation.

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.

Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.

The neighborhood was mixed.

And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.

This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it[/quote]

He could’ve just been checking his zipper. If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he said that he was walking with his hand in his waistband. This would give me the impression that he probably was holding his pants up because the tea was weighing them down, like X said earlier.

But until you know why, you can only guess. Noone has X-ray vision to see why his hand is in his waistband, all you can do is guess. It’s not out of the question to see someone walking slowly, at night, in the rain, with his hand in his pants, looking around at every house as suspicious. Yes, there’s a legitimate explanation for all of it, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be taken as suspicious looking by anyone. Especially someone who is looking for trouble and off the rocker like Zimmerman.[/quote]

Zimmerman’s defense hinges on his belief that Tray was armed; no weapon was found on the body, and Zimmerman ended up in a fight with Tray. If Tray was armed with intent to use the weapon, there would have been clear evidence of this. No physical altercation would have ensued: two armed men = gunfight and there was no evidence to support this. If Tray had a gun, he would have shot Zimmerman in his car. Nothing supports the view that Tray was the aggressor. An approach would have allowed Zim to draw his weapon and the facts don’t support this.

Zimmerman willingly stepped out to confront the kid with a holstered weapon.[/quote]

You sure are an expert on shooting people.[/quote]

He’s illustrating a common sense scenario. A hunch.
Sometimes you’re thick as a rock HG.
[/quote]

He just thinks that using basic psychology in business and one night stands makes him top tier in human behaviour. If Trayvon tried to drag Zimmerman out of his car after suspicious pants -exploring behaviour, Zimmerman would have pulled his gun, shot Tray in self defense and justified it with Tray trying to drag him from the vehicle. The 911 call and Tray’s cell phone message simply don’t support that. What additional proof are we waiting on that will explain this? A second gun? Didn’t happen.

Just one more point, because Tdub literally walked right into it. The following is a prime example of what I am speaking of:

First, this statement isn’t even true and I explained that above…so why do people who claim to not even listen to the music…blanket the ENTIRE FIELD OF MUSIC along with those who listen to it or dress similarly with this negative stereotype?

The belief is truly that every single rapper is acting like a criminal? Really?

OutKast raps mostly about criminal activity? Really? Shake it like a Polaroid Picture is going to kill your kids?

LOL. But culturalism is the new ‘racism’.

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]

If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]

I think the better question is if it were 2 white people involved, or 2 black people, would anyone even care? The media wouldn’t be covering it, that’s for sure.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

OutKast raps mostly about criminal activity? Really? Shake it like a Polaroid Picture is going to kill your kids?

[/quote]

Rosa Parks is such a thug song.

[quote]waldo21212 wrote:

[quote]Grneyes wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]

If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]

I think the better question is if it were 2 white people involved, or 2 black people, would anyone even care? The media wouldn’t be covering it, that’s for sure.[/quote]

That was my point.

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TDub301 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]

So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?

You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.

So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]

I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.

Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.

The neighborhood was mixed.

And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.

This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it[/quote]

He could’ve just been checking his zipper. If Zimmerman was telling the truth, he said that he was walking with his hand in his waistband. This would give me the impression that he probably was holding his pants up because the tea was weighing them down, like X said earlier.

But until you know why, you can only guess. Noone has X-ray vision to see why his hand is in his waistband, all you can do is guess. It’s not out of the question to see someone walking slowly, at night, in the rain, with his hand in his pants, looking around at every house as suspicious. Yes, there’s a legitimate explanation for all of it, but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be taken as suspicious looking by anyone. Especially someone who is looking for trouble and off the rocker like Zimmerman.[/quote]

Zimmerman’s defense hinges on his belief that Tray was armed; no weapon was found on the body, and Zimmerman ended up in a fight with Tray. If Tray was armed with intent to use the weapon, there would have been clear evidence of this. No physical altercation would have ensued: two armed men = gunfight and there was no evidence to support this. If Tray had a gun, he would have shot Zimmerman in his car. Nothing supports the view that Tray was the aggressor. An approach would have allowed Zim to draw his weapon and the facts don’t support this.

Zimmerman willingly stepped out to confront the kid with a holstered weapon.[/quote]

You sure are an expert on shooting people.[/quote]

Weird how every observation I’ve made on the case has been verified thus far. That’s the difference between a manipulator of people and an observer of people. Shot any blanks at anyone lately?[/quote]
no but I would’ve shot trayvon given what we know.