[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
People in my neck of the woods would probably mistake you for a goth then… And dislike you for all the wrong reasons hahaha
[/quote]
Nah, we have a “look.”[/quote]
“These are not the Jews you are looking for…”
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
I always thought the pants hanging was an imitation of prison issue clothing…
[/quote]
Man, Jodeci was sagging back in the 90’s. It has always been some level of a style in the black community FOR KIDS and now for mostly people under the age of 25…for at least the last 25 years. I don’t know too many people over the age of 25 dressing like that unless they are rappers themselves or don’t have jobs.
That is why when people use this as some sort of “sign of danger” they are off their rockers…not to mention the shit this kid had in his pants which was at least over a pound in weight.
Moral of the story?
Stereotypes that throw purely negative connotations to cultural styles or mannerisms is a form of racism/culturalism.
Most of the people with pants sagging are NOT carrying guns so acting like this kid’s pants made him a true threat is ridiculous.[/quote]
I’m from New Orleans - 41 - I clearly remember this as a cultural thing (not a race thing). Agree with you regarding stereotypes but, in real life down here - you have to watch your back around people that dress this way - whites/ blacks/ spanish / orientals (rarely but, happens) - usually age is also more of the issue than race.[/quote]
Just so you are aware, “Oriental” is considered a derogatory term.[/quote]
Really - I wasn’t aware of that. In the context of my sentence - I see nothing derogatory. Should I have said - asian? Sorry if I have been offensive - was not trying to be.[/quote]
Yeah, they prefer “Asian”. I remember one lady a few years ago who was called Oriental and she replied “I’m not a rug!”
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
I always thought the pants hanging was an imitation of prison issue clothing…
[/quote]
Man, Jodeci was sagging back in the 90’s. It has always been some level of a style in the black community FOR KIDS and now for mostly people under the age of 25…for at least the last 25 years. I don’t know too many people over the age of 25 dressing like that unless they are rappers themselves or don’t have jobs.
That is why when people use this as some sort of “sign of danger” they are off their rockers…not to mention the shit this kid had in his pants which was at least over a pound in weight.
Moral of the story?
Stereotypes that throw purely negative connotations to cultural styles or mannerisms is a form of racism/culturalism.
Most of the people with pants sagging are NOT carrying guns so acting like this kid’s pants made him a true threat is ridiculous.[/quote]
I’m from New Orleans - 41 - I clearly remember this as a cultural thing (not a race thing). Agree with you regarding stereotypes but, in real life down here - you have to watch your back around people that dress this way - whites/ blacks/ spanish / orientals (rarely but, happens) - usually age is also more of the issue than race.
By the way, I am firmly in the camp that finds Zimmerman as a lunatic racist crazy man that needs to be arrested pronto for manslaughter. I feel so sorry for this yound man and his family.[/quote]
The whole style of dress thing is tricky. I know as many geeks that dress the same just because it’s the style now. It’s almost comical to watch kids walking down the street wearing tight pants pulled down to show underwear. Not great for running.
As for Zimmerman he is more of a fanatic nut that seemed to get a bit power happy than anything else. My biggest beef is the way the police handled this.
I keep hearing people say he was questioned but I’m only hearing the police say he was looked at on scene.
I HOPE they did more if not this is bad stuff from trained professionals who should know better. [/quote]
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but Zimmerman also had a habit of calling in suspicious persons. He was something of a nuisance to the police, always calling in about people just walking around and stuff.
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]
If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
I always thought the pants hanging was an imitation of prison issue clothing…
[/quote]
Man, Jodeci was sagging back in the 90’s. It has always been some level of a style in the black community FOR KIDS and now for mostly people under the age of 25…for at least the last 25 years. I don’t know too many people over the age of 25 dressing like that unless they are rappers themselves or don’t have jobs.
That is why when people use this as some sort of “sign of danger” they are off their rockers…not to mention the shit this kid had in his pants which was at least over a pound in weight.
Moral of the story?
Stereotypes that throw purely negative connotations to cultural styles or mannerisms is a form of racism/culturalism.
Most of the people with pants sagging are NOT carrying guns so acting like this kid’s pants made him a true threat is ridiculous.[/quote]
I’m from New Orleans - 41 - I clearly remember this as a cultural thing (not a race thing). Agree with you regarding stereotypes but, in real life down here - you have to watch your back around people that dress this way - whites/ blacks/ spanish / orientals (rarely but, happens) - usually age is also more of the issue than race.[/quote]
Just so you are aware, “Oriental” is considered a derogatory term.[/quote]
Really - I wasn’t aware of that. In the context of my sentence - I see nothing derogatory. Should I have said - asian? Sorry if I have been offensive - was not trying to be.[/quote]
Yeah, they prefer “Asian”. I remember one lady a few years ago who was called Oriental and she replied “I’m not a rug!”[/quote]
Maybe if she’d have gotten laid more.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]
If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]
I don’t even know why people continue to ignore this.
I’m trying my best to keep up with this thread, but I don’t have the time. I’m hoping this hasn’t been addressed in the last few pages and squashed, but if it has, I apologize.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
BTW…these stories aren’t just “stories.” They are true events that have shaped how I deal with situations. If you’re implying that I’m lying…well that’s a bit insulting. My experience with racist/racism runs deep. If you don’t believe it because you wanna drink the koolaid and pretend like these things don’t happen anymore then it’s up to you to continue to live in ignorance.[/quote]
I have to agree that the constant, “Oh you’re just seeing things” is about as disrespectful and “elitist” as you can get. This conversation isn’t being held amongst a bunch of sixth graders.[/quote]
I can’t speak for anyone else. As for me, I’m not saying you’re just seeing things, I agreed early on that racial profiling was the most likely answer. The only thing I desire is to at least acknowledge the possibility that it could have been due to other reasons as well instead of always being quick to pull the race card. If you acknowledge that there are other possiblities, then at that point, it is wrong to accuse him of racial profiling because accusations shouldn’t be made when you don’t know all the details in any situation. It’s that simple. Nothing elitist about that in my opinion.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I do believe many of us have earned the right to be taken seriously about our perceptions instead of the constant brush off.[/quote]
It’s only BECAUSE you are taken seriously that I continue to respond. If I didn’t take you seriously I’d laugh and move on to the next thread. To me, you (and those that agree) are doing more brushing off than anyone else. At least that’s how it looks from my angle. Which only begs the same statement you just made, only directed back at you. I’m the one breaking down what you’re saying, while you simply continue to keep jumping to the same conclusion when you don’t know all the details (admittedly, more details have come out recently that give more evidence that it WAS racially charged).
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If this case had not been brought to the public the way it was, it is likely it would have just been swept under the rug. They drug/alcohol tested the dead body but not the guy who shot him???[/quote]
I agree with this and think there’s some foul play going on with that police department that I don’t like any more than you do. I would also like to know why Zim was taken at his word while they drug and alochol test a dead kid who just took a short walk to the local 7-11 or whatever it was.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The argument that racism is so small today it shouldn’t be a worry loses its substance when people still get killed for skin tone.[/quote]
I’m not sure who made this argument, but I know it wasn’t me. I acknowledged early on that racism is still alive and well. I just don’t think that the answer to rampant racism is to automatically assume that everyone who could be taken that way is. Can you not see that being suspicious of everyone is not going to help anything? All that will do is make the situation worse, won’t it?
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Complexity theory does not work that way.[/quote]
I watched about 10 minutes of one episode of Numbers and turned it off. There was so much blatantly false crap that I couldn’t stand it. I get that the show is made for the general population, most of which do not know much about these things but they could at least try not to make up blatantly false information for their show.
[/quote]
It would serverely limit their ability to come up with new episodes after a short while. I don’t know dick about any math beyond basic calculus, but even I knew that a lot if not most of the “math” they do in Numbers is horse-shit. The way he’d come up with ways to predict things or solve crimes seemed very far-fetched to me. But hey, I do think it’s an entertaining show. Maybe a good way for you to look at it positively is to know that it could potentially bring more people to start studying it. That would be good, right?
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
The only thing I desire is to at least acknowledge the possibility that it could have been due to other reasons as well instead of always being quick to pull the race card. If you acknowledge that there are other possiblities, then at that point, it is wrong to accuse him of racial profiling because accusations shouldn’t be made when you don’t know all the details in any situation. It’s that simple. Nothing elitist about that in my opinion.[/quote]
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
…while you simply continue to keep jumping to the same conclusion when you don’t know all the details (admittedly, more details have come out recently that give more evidence that it WAS racially charged).[/quote]
Exactly. The POINT all along was that there wasn’t enough evidence at varying points of the discussion to justify the lynch mob mentality.
The quality of the discussion in this thread declined EXTREMELY sharply once those people participating in the circle jerk got a little more traction with one another. Nonsensical posts about John White, Emmett Till and “people in this thread being more respectful now that there is more than one black guy posting” all accomplished nothing but shift this from a fairly respectful discussion to a total cluster fuck… and they were all so caught up in an “honest people vs closet racists” mentality that they didn’t have the intellectual honesty to call out one another for their bullshit analogies, irrelevant commentary and shit reading comprehension in order to keep the discourse at even an even MODERATELY entertaining level.
It’s remarkable to see witness how quickly this discussion devolved once enough people started using it as an emotional outlet rather than a place to toss around evidence-based opinions.
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]
If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]
I don’t even know why people continue to ignore this.[/quote]
Because it is bullshit conjecture.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]
The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.
That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.
This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.
That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.
I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]
So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?
You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.
So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]
The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.
That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.
This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.
That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.
I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]
So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?
You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.
So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]
Are you serious? Rap has been around since the late 70’s and the specific motion or "style we speak of has been present since before Micheal Jackson was grabbing his crotch and Moon Walking.
Anyone still using CULTURAL DIFFERENCES as signs of CRIMINAL ACTIVITY is seeing the world through bigoted eyes…whether they admit it or not.
That is why people in this thread can state that a black male with a hood on is SUSPICIOUS yet turn right around and act like it had nothing to do with race.
People see what they WANT to see. To claim someone has been blind to rap for 40 years is ridiculous. They see it as a negative…and then use that negative stereotype and apply it to people so they can avoid “being racist”…yet doing the exact same thing as a “CULTURALIST”.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]
If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]
I don’t even know why people continue to ignore this.[/quote]
Because it is bullshit conjecture.[/quote]
Right. It isn’t even worth responding to you anymore.
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned but Zimmerman also had a habit of calling in suspicious persons. He was something of a nuisance to the police, always calling in about people just walking around and stuff.
[/quote]
Yes, He made over forty 9-11 calls over the past year.
I just heard a lawyer talking about how Zimmerman is NOT protected by the law, since he hunted Martin down. He said that MARTIN, in fact, was the one who would have been protected by that law.
Sad.
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Complexity theory does not work that way.[/quote]
I watched about 10 minutes of one episode of Numbers and turned it off. There was so much blatantly false crap that I couldn’t stand it. I get that the show is made for the general population, most of which do not know much about these things but they could at least try not to make up blatantly false information for their show.
[/quote]
It would serverely limit their ability to come up with new episodes after a short while. I don’t know dick about any math beyond basic calculus, but even I knew that a lot if not most of the “math” they do in Numbers is horse-shit. The way he’d come up with ways to predict things or solve crimes seemed very far-fetched to me. But hey, I do think it’s an entertaining show. Maybe a good way for you to look at it positively is to know that it could potentially bring more people to start studying it. That would be good, right?[/quote]
I hope so man, people not wanting to take higher math classes/getting technical degrees like engineering/hard sciences is a huge problem. When I started teaching at my current university over 10 years ago, a standard class size for a basic calculus sequence was around 400 students. Now, a class size of 200 students is about average and the sequence has not changed.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
[quote]Grneyes wrote:
[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I wonder if this crime would have received as much media coverage if not for the racism angle. The boy would still he dead, the shooter still free yet would many outside the family care. Let’s face It, guy shooting another guy, or a young man killed, really is not all that news worthy - as sad that is. Even the PSU scandal even became about the cover-up rather than the crime. Sometimes I wonder if our culture allows for boys and men to be victims of violence.[/quote]
If it was reversed and a white kid was shot by a black man, that black man would have been arrested IMMEDIATELY and none of this would be happening. I find it interesting that the police reported Zimmerman as a “white male” when he is very clearly Hispanic. [/quote]
I don’t even know why people continue to ignore this.[/quote]
Because it is bullshit conjecture.[/quote]
Hahaha
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
I actually have my own theory that everyone is equally intelligent.[/quote]
It’s called egalitarianism. When egalitarianism is applied to racial intelligence levels, it fails. Each race has a different average brain size and difference average ratio between grey and white matter. For all the races to end up with equal intelligence levels is just about as close to a statistical impossibility as you can get and every valid study ever done on this topic has shown this is simply not the case. It would be nice if all the races had equal intelligence levels, but that’s just matter of factly less likely than all the races ending up with equal aggregate athletic proficiency. [/quote]
If you don’t have a valid measurement of IQ in the first place, you can’t have a valid study of anything related to IQ.
I will look more into Egalitarianism.
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]
The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.
That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.
This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.
That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.
I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.[/quote]
So after saying all this, would you agree that suspicion is in the eye of the beholder?
You’ve mentioned that rappers have been making videos with saggy pants for decades, but you fail to realize that a lot of white people from the generation Zimmerman is a part of may have never seen a rap video in their lives.
So if there’s no exposure to this sort of thing, why is it so far-fetched for them to think it looks suspicious? Especially if all the kids in their neighborhood don’t look like that when they’re walking down the street? (this is an assumption, none of us knows how the rest of the kids there walk around their neighborhood, I’m just trying to make a point here and it is fairly likely that any given neighborhood, especially if it is a gated neighborhood in a white area, would not contain kids who wear clothes like this).[/quote]
I know this is meant for X but just so this does not get out of control.
Zimmerman is 28 younger than the every member of Jodeci hahaha.
The neighborhood was mixed.
And we have no idea how this kid clothes fit. All we know is hoodie. People guess he had hanging pants because Zimmerman said he touched his waist. As far as we know the kid just checked his zipper.
This story has enough bad details without any of us adding to it
[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Recap:
-Hoodrat now means “black guy with hood on”
-All of those guys who made grabbing at your crotch or waist a cool thing in the freaking 80’s in rap…somehow get ignored because it just means GUN now.
-Running away from someone now means you can kill them and claim self defense if they get any jabs in after you catch them.
-If one black person commits a crime, every black person after that will be watched for the potential to do the same.
LOL at “individuality”. [/quote]I don’t understand how someone thinks hoodrat is a person with a hoodie on. That’s funny.
I also don’t understand how someone sagging their pants and holding them up at the waist looks like a gun. They’re obviously holding the pants up with their hand. Not holding a gun.
[/quote]
To someone who isn’t familiar with this kind of stuff, it could be easy to get it misconstrued. My intent is not to defend people, just merely to point out that it’s possible someone could be completely ignorant about it. Not everyone is familiar with the clothing style or other attributes of populations outside of their own immediate cirlces.
[quote]The Florida version of the law, backed with the support of the National Rifle Assn., was passed in 2005. According to the Associated Press, Florida Department of Law Enforcement statistics show that, before the law was enacted, there were about 13 so-called justified killings each year by citizens from 2000 to 2005. Between 2006 and 2010, the average has risen to 36 justified killings each year.
Some state lawmakers have already begun to question whether the Florida law is too broad, saying they’re considering legislation that would redefine the grounds under which self-defense could be claimed.[/quote]
Justified killings grew about 3 times since this law went into affect.
I think the question now is, who is being killed?