Black Teen Shot by Neighborhood Watch

[TigerTime]

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]
What aboriginal tribes recently discovered and still living in the stone age?

I do find it interesting that through out history, certain regions grew, prospered, developed technology and then of course dominated regions still throwing stones and using sticks for self defense.

Take the middle east for example, obviously a pioneer in science, math, culture et cetera and bordering Asia, Europe and Africa.

Look at the technological advances of European and Asian countries at any point in history compared to Africa.

I realize I’ll probably get crucified for this musing, but it’s interesting when viewed objectively.

Societal support is helpful of course, take a tribesman and throw him in modern society and he will adapt to the best of his abilities but, as a whole, why did one region lag so far behind?[/quote]

The most common theory is that moving out of Africa meant food would be harder to find and it would take more intelligence in order to cultivate a sustainable tribe. As it happens, the gap necessary to survive in the frigid climate of ancient Europe also gave rise to the intelligence levels necessary to build western civilization to what it is today.

Something along those lines.

[FrozenNinja]

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
It is absolutely mind boggling how people can justify this dude’s actions! He was not a cop…he should not have pursued the kid. The cops were well on their way he should have kept an eye on him from a distance until the cops arrived.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are posters here in Tnation land who would’nt bat an eyelash on giving this dude props for what he did. I just know they are out there. Because there are people agreeing and siding with this man as we speak.[/quote]

Your reading comprehension is weak sauce.

Who the fuck is “siding” with Zimmerman? Who is “justifying” his killing of Martin?

The point that was being made from the very start was to call out the reflexive catcalls of racism that weren’t grounded in any sort of factual reality.

Find me someone who has been arguing Zimmerman didn’t fuck up. Please.[/quote]

I’ll have you know my reading comprehension is stellar asshole…graduated college the top of my class.

I was refering to people who are siding with Zimmerman in the community, and how the police are still protecting him. My reference to the tnationers who probably side with him haven’t been those who posted…It was in reference to lurkers who probably don’t have the balls to type a post. :-p

[four60]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
More gnats.

Blacks in America may just have the most diverse gene pool of any other country. That makes the entire discussion of “black genes” suspect and I have stated this many times before.

I am not African. My ancestors were French, Native American, Haitian, and African. If you see “black” when you see me and then base any judgments about my character or potential for any negative act on that color, you are a RACIST.

Accept it.

Deal with it.[/quote]

Its hard but the whole stat game is just that. A game. Its why the majority of them if not all of them are debated to death.

Most of these type of statistics are based off of police reports when crime is concerned. And as you can see thru this one MAY go down as Zimmerman self defense shooting.

Making this kid with Ice Tea and skittles the aggressor. So this is another STAT to add to the list.

Zimmerman who may be of Latin American decent. Is considered by the Police as a White Male of Hispanic descent. Since no state or Gov agency considers Hispanic or Latin American a race.

But when you look at a pic of Zimmerman what do you see?

Its all open to debate and even the Tiger kid who broke out the Stats to start this conversation can agree to that.[/quote]

Actually, most of the studies I’ve read come from the victim’s side, not the police side.

Personally, I think it’s more alarming, not less, that “white” homicide combined with “Latino” homicide is still much lower than the black homicide rates.

Yes, there’s room for debate, but not as much as I think most of you are hoping for. [/quote]

Victims?? was this a study gathered by a guy walking around talking to victims of crimes?? or did it come from a report?

I think its a stretch to find a conclusion. And I have no real hope in any Stats. To many ways they can be read. Thru the eyes of the One making the reports and the one reading them.

[FrozenNinja]

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
The only thing that irritates me in this discussion is the fact that it has gone beyond the incident to say that racism is ONLY A WHITE PROBLEM. It is most certainly not.[/quote]

I acknowledge racism is not only a white problem. I acknowledge black on white, white on black, Asians/latinos on whites/blacks and black/whites on latinos/Asian racism exist. I have witnessed those and they are all wrong. I don’t condone that shit.

I’ve been to a Black Panther museum and even though those guys were fighting for an obvious cause, trust me, as a black person, I felt sick to the core reading the material they wrote about white people. I’ve been brought up to be tolerant of all races and not judge. However what I despise is unfairness. And I hate racists, blacks, whites, yellow, reds or blues. I’m still laughing at some posters in this thread that had called me ignorant or racist for pointing out racism when I see it. Hey, I’m supposed to shut up and be level headed. I should not complain about injustice. Fuck’ em.

We’re not talking about blacks beating the shit out of a whites or vice versa. We’re talking about the murder of a kid and his killer not being arrested. That murder wouldn’t have happened if the killer hadn’t acted on his racial stereotypes.

All I’ve been mostly pointing out in this thread is the double standard. All I ask is fairness for all races. We want to see each other as one human race, right? Cool. But as long as sad situations such like these happen, how do you expect race relations to improve? Shall we always shush and brush everything under the carpet?

A kid is dead. And why? Because the colour of his skin pushed a man to suspect him of being up to no good. And what had happened to that man? He was let go with a slap on the back. At least arrest the fucker and if you like, release him on bail later. John White, anyone? His black ass was in a cell the same night he shot a white teen dead.

A black man would be in jail right now, guilty until proven innocent. This kind of scenario still prevails nowadays, and for those who want to convince me otherwise, well, they’re in fucking denial.
[/quote]

Well said.
[/quote]

X2 My sentiments exactly.

[TigerTime]

[quote]viper0213 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
More gnats.

Blacks in America may just have the most diverse gene pool of any other country. That makes the entire discussion of “black genes” suspect and I have stated this many times before.

I am not African. My ancestors were French, Native American, Haitian, and African. If you see “black” when you see me and then base any judgments about my character or potential for any negative act on that color, you are a RACIST.

Accept it.

Deal with it.[/quote]

Actually, this is something you’re going to have to deal with. Blacks in America have usually between 12-20% “white” DNA. Blacks in America also tend to outscore “pure” blacks by 10-20 points on IQ tests.

Again, these are tests which control for ‘G’.[/quote]

I guess I can agree with you on this point since I only scored a 700 on the SAT, but hold a BSBA in Economics and Masters degree in Management. Good info, NOT.[/quote]

This is asinine on far too many levels for it be worth a real response.

[four60]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]
What aboriginal tribes recently discovered and still living in the stone age?

I do find it interesting that through out history, certain regions grew, prospered, developed technology and then of course dominated regions still throwing stones and using sticks for self defense.

Take the middle east for example, obviously a pioneer in science, math, culture et cetera and bordering Asia, Europe and Africa.

Look at the technological advances of European and Asian countries at any point in history compared to Africa.

I realize I’ll probably get crucified for this musing, but it’s interesting when viewed objectively.

Societal support is helpful of course, take a tribesman and throw him in modern society and he will adapt to the best of his abilities but, as a whole, why did one region lag so far behind?[/quote]

The most common theory is that moving out of Africa meant food would be harder to find and it would take more intelligence in order to cultivate a sustainable tribe. As it happens, the gap necessary to survive in the frigid climate of ancient Europe also gave rise to the intelligence levels necessary to build western civilization to what it is today.

Something along those lines. [/quote]

???Unless you are talking about the Middle East I’m not sure what part of Ancient Western Europe was any more advanced than any place else.

Wow.

Ok on this note I am out. hahahaha wow.

[FrozenNinja]

And we’re back to discussing the IQ of blacks vs the rest of the world… DEEP SIGH

[anonym]

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
And we’re back to discussing the IQ of blacks vs the rest of the world… DEEP SIGH[/quote]

lol

You can’t tell me you didn’t see this coming after reading Tiger’s first post, though.

[Professor_X]

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
And we’re back to discussing the IQ of blacks vs the rest of the world… DEEP SIGH[/quote]

LOL…Mind you, have you ever been contacted for these massive studies done on all of us? I mean, I have been on the planet for a while now and not one person has tested my IQ for the purposes of collecting data on all blacks in the country.

Where are these stats coming from if I don’t know one black person who was tested?

I think discussing this shit more will just take the thread further off course. Tiger Time has issues. The thing is, had this been about 4 years ago when it was thought there weren’t many minorities here, this thread would be going way different by now.

This is actually the most civil race discussion I’ve seen.

I guess realizing they aren’t just fighting one black guy changes the responses.

[Tex_Ag]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
A stats “game” is all it is. [/quote]

Well, that’s a cop-out if I ever heard one. You don’t have to like it, but don’t pretend like these statistics don’t match up with reality by virtue of being statistics. [/quote]

That’s tautological.

If you believe this you do not understand statistics.

[LHT]

Until about 600 years ago, the countries, and the populations, that are being portrayed on this thread (by some) as genetically superior, were pretty damned primitive.

For example… England, northern France, the Low Countries, Scandinavia, Germany. Today, these regions, and their descendant populations, represent a disproportionate percentage of wealth, health, and education compared to the rest of the world. Before the past half-millineum, the people of these regions were nowhere near the peak of civilization either in Europe or compared to other civilized centers of the world.

For that matter, same with Japan…sure, they were clean and organized, but the Japanese islands were an isolated backwater that were not regarded for a moment by the civilizations around them, until a wide variety of circumstances allowed them an opportunity to shine on the international scene – circumstances that didn’t really even start to get into place until a couple of centuries ago.

Are we to assume that there was some enormous mutation that changed northern and western Europeans from disease-ridden, ignorant, impoverished, violent, completely inconsequential bumpkins of the planet, into the gleaming beacons of everything wonderful?

I have little if any doubt that genetics play a major role in how civilizations develop, and in the behavior of individuals and societies, but it’s also very easy to become so enamored with such a tidy world view that you tend to ignore all the other potential factors for what we call civilization.

Studies like history and sociology are a lot more squishy than that. Over-reliance on one ‘thing’ (such as genetics) as your sine qua non for something as sweeping as the rise and fall of human populations is innately self-limiting, bordering on delusional.

[anonym]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I guess realizing they aren’t just fighting one black guy changes the responses.[/quote]

And who, pray tell, might this “they” group be who used to beat up on the only black guy posting in these sorts of threads four years ago and are now acting much more civil in this discussion?

Or, are we back to thinking that one or two posters speak for an entire race, again?

[Tex_Ag]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]
What aboriginal tribes recently discovered and still living in the stone age?

I do find it interesting that through out history, certain regions grew, prospered, developed technology and then of course dominated regions still throwing stones and using sticks for self defense.

Take the middle east for example, obviously a pioneer in science, math, culture et cetera and bordering Asia, Europe and Africa.

Look at the technological advances of European and Asian countries at any point in history compared to Africa.

I realize I’ll probably get crucified for this musing, but it’s interesting when viewed objectively.

Societal support is helpful of course, take a tribesman and throw him in modern society and he will adapt to the best of his abilities but, as a whole, why did one region lag so far behind?[/quote]

The most common theory is that moving out of Africa meant food would be harder to find and it would take more intelligence in order to cultivate a sustainable tribe. As it happens, the gap necessary to survive in the frigid climate of ancient Europe also gave rise to the intelligence levels necessary to build western civilization to what it is today.

Something along those lines. [/quote]

Greece has a frigid climate?

[Dr_Matt581]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Actually, most of these statistics are gathered from victim interviews, in order to control for police bias.

We aren’t talking about blacks committing 10% more homicides for their population, they’re committing 52% of total homicides. That much of a discrepancy cannot be brushed off as racial profiling. [/quote]

Damn it, I told myself I was done posting in this thread, and then I read this. Now, I have a low opinion of statistics as a mathematical discipline in general, and it is practically useless in many cases. Crime statistics is one of those cases. There are way too many unknowns to possibly be able to draw any useful conclusions. The only thing that those statistics have to go on is conviction rates. Think of all the unsolved murders in this country alone. Think about all the wrongful convictions that we do not know about. Think of all the missing people and others who may have been murdered but we don’t know because no bodies have been found. There is no real and reliable way of accounting for these unknowns. The only real piece of knowledge we can get from these statistics is that 52% of murder convictions are against black people.

Oh, and I agree with whoever said that genetic predisposition to crime based on race is a load of crap. There could, however be a cultural factor here but I don’t really know. I majored in physics, not African American studies, so I don’t really know much about African American culture except what I see in movies and television.

EDIT: I totally left two sentences half finished. See how useless IQ tests/having a high IQ is?

[Tex_Ag]

[quote]LHT wrote:
Until about 600 years ago, the countries, and the populations, that are being portrayed on this thread (by some) as genetically superior, were pretty damned primitive.

For example… England, northern France, the Low Countries, Scandinavia, Germany. Today, these regions, and their descendant populations, represent a disproportionate percentage of wealth, health, and education compared to the rest of the world. Before the past half-millineum, the people of these regions were nowhere near the peak of civilization either in Europe or compared to other civilized centers of the world.

For that matter, same with Japan…sure, they were clean and organized, but the Japanese islands were an isolated backwater that were not regarded for a moment by the civilizations around them, until a wide variety of circumstances allowed them an opportunity to shine on the international scene – circumstances that didn’t really even start to get into place until a couple of centuries ago.

Are we to assume that there was some enormous mutation that changed northern and western Europeans from disease-ridden, ignorant, impoverished, violent, completely inconsequential bumpkins of the planet, into the gleaming beacons of everything wonderful?

I have little if any doubt that genetics play a major role in how civilizations develop, and in the behavior of individuals and societies, but it’s also very easy to become so enamored with such a tidy world view that you tend to ignore all the other potential factors for what we call civilization.

Studies like history and sociology are a lot more squishy than that. Over-reliance on one ‘thing’ (such as genetics) as your sine qua non for something as sweeping as the rise and fall of human populations is innately self-limiting, bordering on delusional. [/quote]

Well said. Environmental Determinism, trying to explain current situations (economics, social stuff) on the physical environment of the past reared its head in the 1920s where it was quickly squashed because it was half guesses at best and found to be racist.

[groo]

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]

What Mr. KKK suggested is hateful and asinine just in case that had to be mentioned. There’s probably more crimes for blacks across socio-economic lines because of racial profiling like what happened in this gated community. Even Mark Twain said, ‘there’s lies, damned lies, and then there’s statistics’. Racism is very real and prominent and I’ve seen it happen to my friends and I hate it. It hurts us all. [/quote]

Exactly. You can not ignore the existence of increased attention to black individuals as “potential criminals” which could no doubt lead to more arrests whether there are more blacks truly committing more crimes or not.

If you aren’t even looking at the white guys (or non-minorities), what else would you expect from many of these statistics?

They weren’t even apparently concerned about any potential criminals in that neighborhood who were WHITE. They were only looking for blacks. It makes perfect sense that in cases like that you either find a black criminal…or you CREATE one.

Where are the stats on that?[/quote]

Actually, most of these statistics are gathered from victim interviews, in order to control for police bias.

We aren’t talking about blacks committing 10% more homicides for their population, they’re committing 52% of total homicides. That much of a discrepancy cannot be brushed off as racial profiling. [/quote]

Which statistics? This is absolutely not the case in the case of the FBI which generates them mostly from law enforcement reports.

How could you possibly prove your last statement?

In a prior post you brought up IQ testing. What do you think these tests actually measure? Why do you think that scores have moved forward generationally calling for recalibration? In the largest study of true success why do you think there wasn’t even correlation found between IQ and success much less causality? Once you reach a baseline intelligence being successful has little to do with the IQ being higher. In fact there is some evidence of just the opposite as the IQ increases.

[LHT]

Oh, and in response to some comments/q’s above re: why some populations progress faster than others.

Best book I’ve ever encountered on the topic is, “Guns, Germs, and Steel.” EXTREMELY honest, comprehensive, and detailed.

The most common reasons for one region to be technologically so far behind others becomes really obvious. No, it doesn’t explain 100% of things 100% of the time, but most of the progress of the world starts to make tremendous sense, including why the middle east, the Yangtze valley of China, & northeast Africa became the foundational point of what we at present call ‘civilization,’ and why northern India and Greece hit the world civilization scene some 2000 to 3000 years before places like Russia, Germany and Denmark.

The book is also very honest about the remaining question marks in history and doesn’t pretend to have a pat answer for everything.

• – oh, I know that a brief glimpse at the premise of this book might outwardly seem to be environmental determinism, but the book is very far from what one might assume.

[Tex_Ag]

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Actually, most of these statistics are gathered from victim interviews, in order to control for police bias.

We aren’t talking about blacks committing 10% more homicides for their population, they’re committing 52% of total homicides. That much of a discrepancy cannot be brushed off as racial profiling. [/quote]

Damn it, I told myself I was done posting in this thread, and then I read this. Now, I have a low opinion of statistics as a mathematical discipline in general, and it is practically useless in many cases. Crime statistics is one of those cases. There are way too many unknowns to possibly be able. The only thing that those statistics have to go on is conviction rates. Think of all the unsolved murders in this country alone. Think about all the wrongful convictions that we do not know about. Think of all the missing people and others who may have been murdered but we don’t know because no bodies have been found. There is no real and reliable way of accounting for these unknowns. The only real piece of knowledge we can get from these statistics is that 52% of murder convictions are against black people.

Oh, and I agree with whoever said that genetic predisposition to crime based on race is a load of crap. There could, however be a cultural factor here but I don’t really know. I majored in physics, not African American studies, so I don’t really know much about African American culture except what I see in movies and television.[/quote]

I.got sucked back in as well. Have you ever looked.into complexity theory?

[Professor_X]

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Actually, most of these statistics are gathered from victim interviews, in order to control for police bias.

We aren’t talking about blacks committing 10% more homicides for their population, they’re committing 52% of total homicides. That much of a discrepancy cannot be brushed off as racial profiling. [/quote]

Damn it, I told myself I was done posting in this thread, and then I read this. Now, I have a low opinion of statistics as a mathematical discipline in general, and it is practically useless in many cases. Crime statistics is one of those cases. There are way too many unknowns to possibly be able. The only thing that those statistics have to go on is conviction rates. Think of all the unsolved murders in this country alone. Think about all the wrongful convictions that we do not know about. Think of all the missing people and others who may have been murdered but we don’t know because no bodies have been found. There is no real and reliable way of accounting for these unknowns. The only real piece of knowledge we can get from these statistics is that 52% of murder convictions are against black people.

Oh, and I agree with whoever said that genetic predisposition to crime based on race is a load of crap. There could, however be a cultural factor here but I don’t really know. I majored in physics, not African American studies, so I don’t really know much about African American culture except what I see in movies and television.[/quote]

We could also get into the literal hundreds of blacks who have been released from death row due to current DNA testing finding them to be wrongly convicted.

Other issues:

-If you already think blacks commit more crimes and are therefore looking for more blacks doing crime, what a surprise that black arrest rates are higher. Gee, what a shock.

-That article posted earlier showed blacks get greater convictions for many of the same crimes.

These are not minor factors when trying to pen “criminal activity” on a specific race. Racial bias is a giant factor if you can still get shot for being black in 2012.

[Dr_Matt581]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
And we’re back to discussing the IQ of blacks vs the rest of the world… DEEP SIGH[/quote]

LOL…Mind you, have you ever been contacted for these massive studies done on all of us? I mean, I have been on the planet for a while now and not one person has tested my IQ for the purposes of collecting data on all blacks in the country.

Where are these stats coming from if I don’t know one black person who was tested?

I think discussing this shit more will just take the thread further off course. Tiger Time has issues. The thing is, had this been about 4 years ago when it was thought there weren’t many minorities here, this thread would be going way different by now.

This is actually the most civil race discussion I’ve seen.

I guess realizing they aren’t just fighting one black guy changes the responses.[/quote]

This actually reminded me of another one of my main problems with statistics: They pick a small sample of a larger whole (say 10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc) subjects depending on how much time and money/resources available and use that data to make conclusions about the whole.

And IQs are pretty worthless as well. I have been teaching at the undergrad level since I was 18 and at the graduate level since I was 25 and I have had more than a few students with IQs above 160 fail out of my basic calculus based physics class and I have had more than a few students with IQs barely above 100 obtain a PhD or other graduate degree. The one thing my successful students seem to have in common is that they put in the time and effort needed to learn the material. They show up to class and take detailed notes, they go to the recitations, they come see me and my grad students about problems they can’t figure out and concepts they don’t understand, they do the homework problems I assign even though I don’t grade them. Yes, the students with higher IQs generally have to put in less time to understand the material than others which makes it easier, but that is it. There is nothing about having a high IQ that guarantees you will be great and successful at anything, and it certainly has nothing to do with a predisposition for criminal activity.