Black Teen Shot by Neighborhood Watch

Off Topic
621

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]

What Mr. KKK suggested is hateful and asinine just in case that had to be mentioned. There’s probably more crimes for blacks across socio-economic lines because of racial profiling like what happened in this gated community. [/quote]

I think so too. I’m just saying you can’t objectively say he is wrong without looking at the evidence for his claim and evidence to the contrary. [/quote]
An extremely controversial book was written by esteemed Harvard professors years ago called The Bell Curve and it examined such topics in an objective, scientific manner.

The results were, of course, rejected emotionally but the literal science of the research still stands.

The authors remained as objective as possible, noted outliers and potential societal causes of disparity, potential research weak points et cetera.

If you can remain objective, not use the book as a blanket basis for hatred and so on, it is an interesting sociological read.

And it isn’t a “white vs. black” book. It discusses common traits among large populations of whites, latinos, blacks and various asians.[/quote]

This was a book by an evolutionary psychologist if I am thinking of the same one and the scientific methods employed have received great criticism upon closer scrutiny, as have those of the entire field of evolutionary psychology.

As for the post by tigertime I am a biologist (biochemist, close enough) and what he is failing to take into account is that there are not “black genes”, there are probably a couple hundred pigment related genes. However, if you take my (extremely white) genome and sequence it and compare it to 100 black people and 100 white people the sequence similarity would not be noticeably different for those two groups to my own genome. Many white individuals genotype will match some of these pigment genes predominately found in black people and many black people those in white people, it is the aggregate effect of them, there is no single gene for race.

Also incidence of genes like the warrior gene which predispose individuals to violent crime may be found in small subsets of certain populations but to suggest ALL black people or latino or whatever have a greater disposition toward crime is laughable from a scientific stand point, this is almost definitely a socioeconomic effect and not a genetic one.

622

[quote]otar wrote:

This was a book by an evolutionary psychologist if I am thinking of the same one and the scientific methods employed have received great criticism upon closer scrutiny, as have those of the entire field of evolutionary psychology.

As for the post by tigertime I am a biologist (biochemist, close enough) and what he is failing to take into account is that there are not “black genes”, there are probably a couple hundred pigment related genes. However, if you take my (extremely white) genome and sequence it and compare it to 100 black people and 100 white people the sequence similarity would not be noticeably different for those two groups to my own genome. Many white individuals genotype will match some of these pigment genes predominately found in black people and many black people those in white people, it is the aggregate effect of them, there is no single gene for race.

Also incidence of genes like the warrior gene which predispose individuals to violent crime may be found in small subsets of certain populations but to suggest ALL black people or latino or whatever have a greater disposition toward crime is laughable from a scientific stand point, this is almost definitely a socioeconomic effect and not a genetic one. [/quote]

That would make two biologists who agree on this issue.

The other issue is the fact that blacks have been in this country for about 500 years so there are few “pure Africans” left anywhere in the country unless they literally just got here in the last generation or so.

That means comparing blacks here with Aborigines just because they both have dark skin is an exercise in laymen folly. The ONLY reason to use stats in that way is to justify a racist perspective.

623

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
More gnats.

Blacks in America may just have the most diverse gene pool of any other country. That makes the entire discussion of “black genes” suspect and I have stated this many times before.

I am not African. My ancestors were French, Native American, Haitian, and African. If you see “black” when you see me and then base any judgments about my character or potential for any negative act on that color, you are a RACIST.

Accept it.

Deal with it.[/quote]

Its hard but the whole stat game is just that. A game. Its way the majority of them if not all of them are debated to death.

Most of these type of statistics are based off of police reports when crime is concerned. And as you can see thru this one MAY go down as Zimmerman self defense shooting.

Making this kid with Ice Tea and skittles the aggressor. So this is another STAT to add to the list.

Zimmerman who may be of Latin American decent. Is considered by the Police as a White Male of Hispanic descent. Since no state or Gov agency considers Hispanic or Latin American a race.

But when you look at a pic of Zimmerman what do you see?

Its all open to debate and even the Tiger kid who broke out the Stats to start this conversation can agree to that.[/quote]
Again, semantics can be fun. It’s weird gov’t agencies don’t recognize latino as a race independent of the caucasion race, though I’m sure some biological classification methodology is the reason why.

Stand a bunch of whites next to a bunch of latinos and you’ll see different facial features, bone structure, hair and eye color variations et cetera. With out labeling each person as “caucasion” and “caucasion of latino decent”, the average joe could pick the latinos like 99% of the time. We are definitely different, neither better than the other but different for sure.[/quote]

LOL

Most of the country was completely in the dark that this woman was at least half Hispanic.

Gnats, gnats everywhere gnats[/quote]
Right, Mexicans don’t have any distinctive physical characteristics.

624

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
No, I don’t. His race is being mentioned for the same reasons we brought up in this thread.

Maybe the problem is the belief that people in those situations are somehow clueless about them.
[/quote]

What I’m saying is, his race is being mentioned constantly, but Zimmerman’s race is being left obscure by people (esp. news anchors) who know he is non-white and I think this is because mentioning he is non-white is kinda a buzz kill when you’ve got a hard on for fighting racial discrimination.

Race =/= skin colour. Race is a combination of genotypes and phenotypes and yes, it certainly appears that certain genotypes cause more violent behaviour and that these particular genes are a predominantly black phenomenon. Hey, maybe this isn’t the case, but I highly doubt it.

Western society isn’t exactly kind to the idea of a genetic cause for criminal behaviour, especially if that genetic cause is applied to race. Consider this before you conclude that I’ve come to these positions lightly.

[quote]
Wait, so you are saying being black makes you more prone to crime?

You are saying black high income makers are still the criminals? People making over 100K a year are who you focused on?

Please, tell me what it is about my DNA that makes more prone to be a criminal than you if income and education have nothing to do with it.[/quote]

  1. Yes. This isn’t even a debatable point. I thought we were debating causation, not the raw data itself. If by “being black” you mean “having black genetics”, then still yes. That is my position.

  2. Being poor does correlate to violent crime. This is a phenomenon observed across all races in every country, but this is especially true with blacks and higher violent crime rates are observed in all income brackets and education levels. If these numbers tapered off after the “middle-class” line was crossed, you’d have a solid point, but this isn’t the case. yes, the gap shrinks, but not enough to be an adequate explanation.

  3. You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m not saying, nor have I ever said that those things have nothing to do with it, just not nearly as much as you’d like to think.

I’m not a biologist, I don’t know what specifically it is about blacks that causes this, but my guess is higher T levels mixed with lower aggregate intelligence levels explains this.

Ah shit, now I’ve really alienated myself from the black T-nationers.

Look, I have no emotional investment in these statistics. If you have information that debunks what I’ve said then great, I’ll change my position, but know that I’m not ignorant on this issue by any means and these are the conclusions I’ve come to despite originally believing the same things that you believe. [/quote]

Wow. Just fucking wow.

Urgh… I need some fresh air. Feels like I’ve just been reading a Klu Klux Klan memo.

Please show me the statistics that PROVE well- to -do blacks are violent psychopaths or other criminals. I want to believe blacks are one sick barbaric race of killers, child molesters, rapists etc and that no other race comes close to this.[/quote]

Hmm? You think my point is “Well-to-do” (whatever that means) blacks are violent psychopaths and criminals? I’m not the caricature you’d like me to be.

625

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]BeefEater wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Beef and 460,

Semantics are fun but they are also the last straw for a failed argument. I don’t feel like chasing you down the rabbit hole. We all know you don’t have the facts to prove shit and are on a witch hunt, nothing more and nothing less.[/quote]

Since you seem to feel that Zimmerman acted accordingly, tell me, what should Trayvon Martin have done that night to avoid being killed?[/quote]
I’m going to let this hang…[/quote]

Oh, because he’s black? Racist! =p[/quote]no dude, it’s a phrase. How about “I am going to let this one sit…”

Except “sitting it out” and leaving the point for the picking are two completely different connotations.
[/quote]

I know, I was joking. Note the “=p”

626

[quote]Professor X wrote:
A stats “game” is all it is. [/quote]

Well, that’s a cop-out if I ever heard one. You don’t have to like it, but don’t pretend like these statistics don’t match up with reality by virtue of being statistics.

627

[quote]mud lark wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’m not a biologist, I don’t know what specifically it is about blacks that causes this, but my guess is higher T levels mixed with lower aggregate intelligence levels explains this.

[/quote]

Lower aggregate intelligence?

By this theory, would Asian-Americans have less violent crime because of superior genetic intellect?
[/quote]

Well, a a matter of fact, North East Asian Mongoloids do outscore whites on IQ tests by about 5 points, they have lower testosterone levels and lower violent crime rates, so it fits.

Don’t think I’m trying to say every IQ point you are short of 100 defines how violent you are going to be, but on average, this is the case.

628

[quote]otar wrote:
As for the post by tigertime I am a biologist (biochemist, close enough) and what he is failing to take into account is that there are not “black genes”, there are probably a couple hundred pigment related genes. However, if you take my (extremely white) genome and sequence it and compare it to 100 black people and 100 white people the sequence similarity would not be noticeably different for those two groups to my own genome. Many white individuals genotype will match some of these pigment genes predominately found in black people and many black people those in white people, it is the aggregate effect of them, there is no single gene for race.[/quote]

Of course, anyone who argues that there is a single “race gene” is off the mark, however…

While genetic differences between individuals of different races would not be noticeably different on the whole – we are all the same species and share about 99.99% of our DNA – that fractional difference, along with the varying degrees of expression in the genes we DO share, is what accounts for the numerous variations we see between people of different races. This includes not only differences in skin pigment, but structural and developmental features. Different races have different average heights, hair coloring and texture, eye shape, skull structure, different predispositions to various diseases, etc.

So, while there may be numerous genes for skin pigment found in individuals of various races that differ only in expression, there are also clearly numerous other genes NOT involved in skin color that happen differ just as much, as well.

Note that I’m not making any judgment on which “race” is superior; however, it doesn’t make much sense to believe that our genes are responsible for SO MANY heritable differences in appearance tied to race, yet are completely level across the board when it comes to personality traits and intelligence. I’m certainly not claiming to know the specifics and I’m not claiming that it is even UNLIKELY for a member of ANY race to have above average intelligence.

Of course, I understand why so many would refuse to acknowledge even the possibility of that being the case… and not just because a white guy doing so automatically paints himself as a supremacist no matter how much he says he’s not passing any specific judgments.

629

BTW, despite my belief that there must certainly be heritable non-physical differences between races, I’m not going to touch TigerTime’s shit with a ten foot pole.

630

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]otar wrote:
As for the post by tigertime I am a biologist (biochemist, close enough) and what he is failing to take into account is that there are not “black genes”, there are probably a couple hundred pigment related genes. However, if you take my (extremely white) genome and sequence it and compare it to 100 black people and 100 white people the sequence similarity would not be noticeably different for those two groups to my own genome. Many white individuals genotype will match some of these pigment genes predominately found in black people and many black people those in white people, it is the aggregate effect of them, there is no single gene for race.[/quote]

Of course, anyone who argues that there is a single “race gene” is off the mark, however…

While genetic differences between individuals of different races would not be noticeably different on the whole – we are all the same species and share about 99.99% of our DNA – that fractional difference, along with the varying degrees of expression in the genes we DO share, is what accounts for the numerous variations we see between people of different races. This includes not only differences in skin pigment, but structural and developmental features. Different races have different average heights, hair coloring and texture, eye shape, skull structure, different predispositions to various diseases, etc.

So, while there may be numerous genes for skin pigment found in individuals of various races that differ only in expression, there are also clearly numerous other genes NOT involved in skin color that happen differ just as much, as well.

Note that I’m not making any judgment on which “race” is superior; however, it doesn’t make much sense to believe that our genes are responsible for SO MANY heritable differences in appearance tied to race, yet are completely level across the board when it comes to personality traits and intelligence. I’m certainly not claiming to know the specifics and I’m not claiming that it is even UNLIKELY for a member of ANY race to have above average intelligence.

Of course, I understand why so many would refuse to acknowledge even the possibility of that being the case… and not just because a white guy doing so automatically paints himself as a supremacist no matter how much he says he’s not passing any specific judgments.[/quote]

I’m sure in extremely specific populations (isolated indigenous populations discovered in South America a few years ago, for instance) what you say could hold some weight and your reasoning is valid. The issue lies in the fact that there is so much cross over between family pedigree’s now that any kind of attempted analysis of this would end up coming out beyond convoluted. There are already enough issues with IQ testing (the intelligence difference tiger time is postulating) that to even measure this is a near impossible task. Immigrants routinely score lower on these tests due to language barriers but score about on par when presented with the test in their native language.

In short: maybe but we don’t really have the tools or resources to tell for sure.

631

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL @ “Im not racist and don’t hate anyone…but let me show you some stats that prove what you look like means you are inferior and more prone to sociopathic behavior!”

2012…and still this.

People in other countries telling black people what they should be concerned about in America has to be the most elitist bullshit since “they aren’t fully human so they will do as slaves”.

[/quote]

LOL @… completely twisting my position.

This is what I’m saying:

Race is more than phenotypes, it is also genotypes. << You especially need to be aware of this.

Genes play a major role in ones behaviour/ potential.

People with similar genes will have similar behaviour/ potential.

As it just so happens, self identified Blacks are the most physically proficient, but also the most prone to violent crime by a landslide and score the lowest on IQ tests, especially tests which control for ‘G’.

Black on black homicide is the leading cause of death for black men ages 15-34

You can worry about whatever you want, but a paper cut sheds less blood than a sword.

I never said I’m not a racist. Depending on your definition, I just might be one. That’s fine, I’m not offended by the title.

Anything else?

632

So how many times has this thread come full-circle? Is it literally a broken record yet?

633

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]

What Mr. KKK suggested is hateful and asinine just in case that had to be mentioned. There’s probably more crimes for blacks across socio-economic lines because of racial profiling like what happened in this gated community. Even Mark Twain said, ‘there’s lies, damned lies, and then there’s statistics’. Racism is very real and prominent and I’ve seen it happen to my friends and I hate it. It hurts us all. [/quote]

Exactly. You can not ignore the existence of increased attention to black individuals as “potential criminals” which could no doubt lead to more arrests whether there are more blacks truly committing more crimes or not.

If you aren’t even looking at the white guys (or non-minorities), what else would you expect from many of these statistics?

They weren’t even apparently concerned about any potential criminals in that neighborhood who were WHITE. They were only looking for blacks. It makes perfect sense that in cases like that you either find a black criminal…or you CREATE one.

Where are the stats on that?[/quote]

Actually, most of these statistics are gathered from victim interviews, in order to control for police bias.

We aren’t talking about blacks committing 10% more homicides for their population, they’re committing 52% of total homicides. That much of a discrepancy cannot be brushed off as racial profiling.

634

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]

What Mr. KKK suggested is hateful and asinine just in case that had to be mentioned. There’s probably more crimes for blacks across socio-economic lines because of racial profiling like what happened in this gated community. [/quote]

I think so too. I’m just saying you can’t objectively say he is wrong without looking at the evidence for his claim and evidence to the contrary. [/quote]

Well they can say it, and they can get together and say it to each other to make themselves feel better, it just doesn’t mean anything outside of this forum.

635

[quote]Professor X wrote:
More gnats.

Blacks in America may just have the most diverse gene pool of any other country. That makes the entire discussion of “black genes” suspect and I have stated this many times before.

I am not African. My ancestors were French, Native American, Haitian, and African. If you see “black” when you see me and then base any judgments about my character or potential for any negative act on that color, you are a RACIST.

Accept it.

Deal with it.[/quote]

Actually, this is something you’re going to have to deal with. Blacks in America have usually between 12-20% “white” DNA. Blacks in America also tend to outscore “pure” blacks by 10-20 points on IQ tests.

Again, these are tests which control for ‘G’.

636

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
More gnats.

Blacks in America may just have the most diverse gene pool of any other country. That makes the entire discussion of “black genes” suspect and I have stated this many times before.

I am not African. My ancestors were French, Native American, Haitian, and African. If you see “black” when you see me and then base any judgments about my character or potential for any negative act on that color, you are a RACIST.

Accept it.

Deal with it.[/quote]

Actually, this is something you’re going to have to deal with. Blacks in America have usually between 12-20% “white” DNA. Blacks in America also tend to outscore “pure” blacks by 10-20 points on IQ tests.

Again, these are tests which control for ‘G’.[/quote]

You seem to place far too much faith in the validity of IQ testing.

637

Regardless of all this talk, bottom line is a young man is dead due to a man who took matters intio his own hands (vigilante). How is your life in danger if the kid ran, AND YOU GAVE CHASE. Bottom line is hge felt bigger since he had a gun, he USED it for no reason at all.

I have been racially profiled all my life, even when I moved to where I love now. I’m the only african american in my neighborhood and well known before most in this area sees me. Never lived in a gated community nor care to.

It’s time to stop the violence and love thy neighbor. If it were my son who was killed you best beleive he wouldn’t have a side to tell either.

638

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Again, these are tests which control for ‘G’.[/quote]

“G” for Gangsta right? RACIST! :stuck_out_tongue:

639

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
More gnats.

Blacks in America may just have the most diverse gene pool of any other country. That makes the entire discussion of “black genes” suspect and I have stated this many times before.

I am not African. My ancestors were French, Native American, Haitian, and African. If you see “black” when you see me and then base any judgments about my character or potential for any negative act on that color, you are a RACIST.

Accept it.

Deal with it.[/quote]

Its hard but the whole stat game is just that. A game. Its why the majority of them if not all of them are debated to death.

Most of these type of statistics are based off of police reports when crime is concerned. And as you can see thru this one MAY go down as Zimmerman self defense shooting.

Making this kid with Ice Tea and skittles the aggressor. So this is another STAT to add to the list.

Zimmerman who may be of Latin American decent. Is considered by the Police as a White Male of Hispanic descent. Since no state or Gov agency considers Hispanic or Latin American a race.

But when you look at a pic of Zimmerman what do you see?

Its all open to debate and even the Tiger kid who broke out the Stats to start this conversation can agree to that.[/quote]

Actually, most of the studies I’ve read come from the victim’s side, not the police side.

Personally, I think it’s more alarming, not less, that “white” homicide combined with “Latino” homicide is still much lower than the black homicide rates.

Yes, there’s room for debate, but not as much as I think most of you are hoping for.

640

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
More gnats.

Blacks in America may just have the most diverse gene pool of any other country. That makes the entire discussion of “black genes” suspect and I have stated this many times before.

I am not African. My ancestors were French, Native American, Haitian, and African. If you see “black” when you see me and then base any judgments about my character or potential for any negative act on that color, you are a RACIST.

Accept it.

Deal with it.[/quote]

Actually, this is something you’re going to have to deal with. Blacks in America have usually between 12-20% “white” DNA. Blacks in America also tend to outscore “pure” blacks by 10-20 points on IQ tests.

Again, these are tests which control for ‘G’.[/quote]

I guess I can agree with you on this point since I only scored a 700 on the SAT, but hold a BSBA in Economics and Masters degree in Management. Good info, NOT.