Mind you, the belief that being black MAKES you a criminal would be the very definition of racism…but that seems to be exactly what is being argued.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
No, I don’t. His race is being mentioned for the same reasons we brought up in this thread.
Maybe the problem is the belief that people in those situations are somehow clueless about them.
[/quote]
What I’m saying is, his race is being mentioned constantly, but Zimmerman’s race is being left obscure by people (esp. news anchors) who know he is non-white and I think this is because mentioning he is non-white is kinda a buzz kill when you’ve got a hard on for fighting racial discrimination.
Race =/= skin colour. Race is a combination of genotypes and phenotypes and yes, it certainly appears that certain genotypes cause more violent behaviour and that these particular genes are a predominantly black phenomenon. Hey, maybe this isn’t the case, but I highly doubt it.
Western society isn’t exactly kind to the idea of a genetic cause for criminal behaviour, especially if that genetic cause is applied to race. Consider this before you conclude that I’ve come to these positions lightly.
[quote]
Wait, so you are saying being black makes you more prone to crime?
You are saying black high income makers are still the criminals? People making over 100K a year are who you focused on?
Please, tell me what it is about my DNA that makes more prone to be a criminal than you if income and education have nothing to do with it.[/quote]
-
Yes. This isn’t even a debatable point. I thought we were debating causation, not the raw data itself. If by “being black” you mean “having black genetics”, then still yes. That is my position.
-
Being poor does correlate to violent crime. This is a phenomenon observed across all races in every country, but this is especially true with blacks and higher violent crime rates are observed in all income brackets and education levels. If these numbers tapered off after the “middle-class” line was crossed, you’d have a solid point, but this isn’t the case. yes, the gap shrinks, but not enough to be an adequate explanation.
-
You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m not saying, nor have I ever said that those things have nothing to do with it, just not nearly as much as you’d like to think.
I’m not a biologist, I don’t know what specifically it is about blacks that causes this, but my guess is higher T levels mixed with lower aggregate intelligence levels explains this.
Ah shit, now I’ve really alienated myself from the black T-nationers.
Look, I have no emotional investment in these statistics. If you have information that debunks what I’ve said then great, I’ll change my position, but know that I’m not ignorant on this issue by any means and these are the conclusions I’ve come to despite originally believing the same things that you believe.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Mind you, the belief that being black MAKES you a criminal would be the very definition of racism…but that seems to be exactly what is being argued.[/quote]
How about the believe that, on the aggregate, those who self-identify as “black” have higher rates of violent crime, especially against each-other, regardless of income and education, suggesting a genetic causation?
If you think of me as a racist, that’s fine. I don’t hate you for being black, I don’t think I hate anyone for any reason actually. To be honest, I don’t even think of myself as being “white”. I know genetically I am white, but I don’t carry it with me and you don’t have to carry “being black” with you. After all, “If a gift is given, but not received, to whom does it belong?”
I’m not here to take the piss out of you, but whether you choose to be offended or not, these are the statistics.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Also…waiting on stats of crime in predominantly high income black neighborhoods compared to high income white neighborhoods.
Oh wait…I bet they don’t have those.
[/quote]
Well, actually…
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, he’s not wrong. The leading cause of death in the U.S. for black men ages 15-34 is black on black homicide. Blacks commit over 50% of the total homicides in the U.S. despite only making up… I think around 13% of your population?
White on black homicide is very rare, even this story isn’t actually an example of white on black crime given that Zimmerman is Mestizo.
What happened to Trayvon is criminal, but using this story to justify ones outrage at how “oppressed” blacks are is, in my opinion, manipulative and deceitful. From what I’ve read, this is almost certainly a race based hate crime, but don’t make this story into more than what it is. Blacks are discriminated against, arguably more so than any other race, but black men have a much bigger problem than trigger happy neighbourhood watchmen and sadly, it’s each other.
Just my 2 cents on the issue. [/quote]
Ding ding.
[/quote]
More like round 7
I love FBI stats. I’m sure Alfi reads them everyday. He is by far my favorite poster.
[/quote]
The thing is though the FBI stats don’t exactly bear out what these guys are saying. They give a ton of caveats.
Lets take this case if it plays out that Zimmerman is never charged than it would never be part of the murder stats at all. So if one were arguing that whites murdering blacks isn’t prosecuted when it occurs then the FBI stats have little to do with this at all.
The method of gathering race data is a bit suspect to say the least. The FBI gives warnings on this itself.
The vast majority of prosecuted murders seem to occur within racial lines white on white, black on black.
For 2010
3327 white victims 2777 white offenders 447 black
2720 black victims 2459 black offenders 218 white
It would be as easy to say that more blacks are prosecuted because of bias as it would be to say that the prosecution rates lack bias and that a higher percentage of blacks commit crimes. Largely both conclusions are going to be a bit suspect if left at that level of simplicity.
This is what happened:
Martin goes to shop → Martin walks back home into the gated community → Zimmerman sees Martin then proceeds to call the cops → Acting on ______ and against police instructions, Marin shadows and confronts Martin → 1) Martin either scared for his safety or angry he is sterotyped gets into an altercation with Zimmerman 2) Martin ignores Zimmerman but Zimmerman assaults or tries to restrain Martin (until the cops come) [under both scenarios Martin eventually sees Zimmeran shadowing/coming after him] → a fight ensues and Zimmerman shoots Martin.
Conclusion: Zimmerman started the series of events that led to Martin’s death when me took notice of Martin and decided to confront him even though he didn’t have to (and actually shouldn’t have). Zimmerman is the “protagonist” and deserves some kind of punishment as consequence of the outcome.
Case pending…
First 2 recordings all you need to hear.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
No, I don’t. His race is being mentioned for the same reasons we brought up in this thread.
Maybe the problem is the belief that people in those situations are somehow clueless about them.
[/quote]
What I’m saying is, his race is being mentioned constantly, but Zimmerman’s race is being left obscure by people (esp. news anchors) who know he is non-white and I think this is because mentioning he is non-white is kinda a buzz kill when you’ve got a hard on for fighting racial discrimination.
Race =/= skin colour. Race is a combination of genotypes and phenotypes and yes, it certainly appears that certain genotypes cause more violent behaviour and that these particular genes are a predominantly black phenomenon. Hey, maybe this isn’t the case, but I highly doubt it.
Western society isn’t exactly kind to the idea of a genetic cause for criminal behaviour, especially if that genetic cause is applied to race. Consider this before you conclude that I’ve come to these positions lightly.
[quote]
Wait, so you are saying being black makes you more prone to crime?
You are saying black high income makers are still the criminals? People making over 100K a year are who you focused on?
Please, tell me what it is about my DNA that makes more prone to be a criminal than you if income and education have nothing to do with it.[/quote]
-
Yes. This isn’t even a debatable point. I thought we were debating causation, not the raw data itself. If by “being black” you mean “having black genetics”, then still yes. That is my position.
-
Being poor does correlate to violent crime. This is a phenomenon observed across all races in every country, but this is especially true with blacks and higher violent crime rates are observed in all income brackets and education levels. If these numbers tapered off after the “middle-class” line was crossed, you’d have a solid point, but this isn’t the case. yes, the gap shrinks, but not enough to be an adequate explanation.
-
You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m not saying, nor have I ever said that those things have nothing to do with it, just not nearly as much as you’d like to think.
I’m not a biologist, I don’t know what specifically it is about blacks that causes this, but my guess is higher T levels mixed with lower aggregate intelligence levels explains this.
Ah shit, now I’ve really alienated myself from the black T-nationers.
Look, I have no emotional investment in these statistics. If you have information that debunks what I’ve said then great, I’ll change my position, but know that I’m not ignorant on this issue by any means and these are the conclusions I’ve come to despite originally believing the same things that you believe. [/quote]
Wow. Just fucking wow.
Urgh… I need some fresh air. Feels like I’ve just been reading a Klu Klux Klan memo.
Please show me the statistics that PROVE well- to -do blacks are violent psychopaths or other criminals. I want to believe blacks are one sick barbaric race of killers, child molesters, rapists etc and that no other race comes close to this.
If Zimmercunt had an ounce of conscience, he would turn himself in. He acted on his racial profiling and killed the wrong person. He killed an innocent kid.
I applaud the Martins and their lawyer for managing to get this sad story national attention. If they had to pull the race card in order to do that, it’s worked. People are talking about it, people are paying more attention, and police is now under pressure to do something about the murderer. Not the first time racial injustice happened in Sanford apparently. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-10-03/news/os-sanford-cop-son-plea-20111003_1_sherman-ware-justin-collison-jerry-hargrett
Chillingly similar to the fact that Zimmercunt must have had a hell of a connection somewhere to have his charges dropped over beating the shit out of a cop and be allowed to walk free after killing Trayvon.
Without the family going public about this case, this would have ended up as the usual case of white man killing a black and getting a slap on the back from the police after claiming self-defense.
Hell, even John White claimed self-defense, but fuck his black ass, he was handcuffed and taken into custody the same night he shot a white kid.
I doubt Zimmerman will see jail time and if he does, then justice will hopefully be served. That’s all what the Martin demand. And I hope they get it.
Otherwise, it’ll be Emett Till all over again. In 2012, this is very sad.
[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, he’s not wrong. The leading cause of death in the U.S. for black men ages 15-34 is black on black homicide. Blacks commit over 50% of the total homicides in the U.S. despite only making up… I think around 13% of your population?
White on black homicide is very rare, even this story isn’t actually an example of white on black crime given that Zimmerman is Mestizo.
What happened to Trayvon is criminal, but using this story to justify ones outrage at how “oppressed” blacks are is, in my opinion, manipulative and deceitful. From what I’ve read, this is almost certainly a race based hate crime, but don’t make this story into more than what it is. Blacks are discriminated against, arguably more so than any other race, but black men have a much bigger problem than trigger happy neighbourhood watchmen and sadly, it’s each other.
Just my 2 cents on the issue. [/quote]
Ding ding.
[/quote]
More like round 7
I love FBI stats. I’m sure Alfi reads them everyday. He is by far my favorite poster.
[/quote]
The thing is though the FBI stats don’t exactly bear out what these guys are saying. They give a ton of caveats.
Lets take this case if it plays out that Zimmerman is never charged than it would never be part of the murder stats at all. So if one were arguing that whites murdering blacks isn’t prosecuted when it occurs then the FBI stats have little to do with this at all.
The method of gathering race data is a bit suspect to say the least. The FBI gives warnings on this itself.
The vast majority of prosecuted murders seem to occur within racial lines white on white, black on black.
For 2010
3327 white victims 2777 white offenders 447 black
2720 black victims 2459 black offenders 218 white
It would be as easy to say that more blacks are prosecuted because of bias as it would be to say that the prosecution rates lack bias and that a higher percentage of blacks commit crimes. Largely both conclusions are going to be a bit suspect if left at that level of simplicity.
[/quote]
I’m leaving the whole race and FBI stats to those that enjoy talking stats. I mentioned before that Hispanic/ Latin is considered a Culture not a race in America.
I just retired from the Military and it is not even an option on the forms for Civilian or Sevice Member. They have Black, White, pacific Islander, Asian but not Hispanic.
After you pic the above choices you then click the culture Black ( Hispanic or non Hispanic), White (Hispanic or Non Hispanic). I just laughed since the US GOV had no issue with it until the 70’s when numbers started to grow.
So I just laugh when I hear people go, " he’s white, he’s not white" .
It’s why I stay away from the Stats Game.
It does not change that night or the kids fate at all. Still dead armed with skittles and ice tea.
A friend of mine that is aboriginal(and fairly dark skinned) was adopted as a baby.He grew up in a very wealthy neighbourhood in the northern suburbs of sydney.One day after school he was walking into his front gate when 2 young cops (both white) asked him what he thought he was doing.
He was in his school uniform which was also a wealthy elite school .he told them he was going into his house and they laughed at him and said “bullshit no abbo could live here”…understandably he was upset,he told them to get fucked, so they got stuck into him. He said have alook at my I.D then and they grabbed him,cuffed him and slapped him in the head and threw him roughly into the back off the car.
What they hadnt seen was the neighbour over the road calling out to tell them to stop(she was close to his family)so the whole incident was witnessed.He told them that they were badly mistaken and in alot of shit as his father was(since passed)a senior professor at sydney university.The sargeant on duty also laughed at him when he told them this,but got quite nervous when he finally threw his wallet containing said I.D.
He got his phone call and then handed the phone to the police officer and said it was awesome watching the colour drain from the coppers face when he realised how much shit they were in.My friend ended up being compensated a fair wad of money and both police were dismissed from the force,and this happened near enough to 20 years ago…
I have absolutely no trouble at all believing that this wanna be cop would have a go at a young black boy just because he appeared to be in the wrong neibourhood…
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Well, he’s not wrong. The leading cause of death in the U.S. for black men ages 15-34 is black on black homicide. Blacks commit over 50% of the total homicides in the U.S. despite only making up… I think around 13% of your population?
White on black homicide is very rare, even this story isn’t actually an example of white on black crime given that Zimmerman is Mestizo.
What happened to Trayvon is criminal, but using this story to justify ones outrage at how “oppressed” blacks are is, in my opinion, manipulative and deceitful. From what I’ve read, this is almost certainly a race based hate crime, but don’t make this story into more than what it is. Blacks are discriminated against, arguably more so than any other race, but black men have a much bigger problem than trigger happy neighbourhood watchmen and sadly, it’s each other.
Just my 2 cents on the issue. [/quote]
Ding ding.
[/quote]
More like round 7
I love FBI stats. I’m sure Alfi reads them everyday. He is by far my favorite poster.
[/quote]
The thing is though the FBI stats don’t exactly bear out what these guys are saying. They give a ton of caveats.
Lets take this case if it plays out that Zimmerman is never charged than it would never be part of the murder stats at all. So if one were arguing that whites murdering blacks isn’t prosecuted when it occurs then the FBI stats have little to do with this at all.
The method of gathering race data is a bit suspect to say the least. The FBI gives warnings on this itself.
The vast majority of prosecuted murders seem to occur within racial lines white on white, black on black.
For 2010
3327 white victims 2777 white offenders 447 black
2720 black victims 2459 black offenders 218 white
It would be as easy to say that more blacks are prosecuted because of bias as it would be to say that the prosecution rates lack bias and that a higher percentage of blacks commit crimes. Largely both conclusions are going to be a bit suspect if left at that level of simplicity.
[/quote]
I’m leaving the whole race and FBI stats to those that enjoy talking stats. I mentioned before that Hispanic/ Latin is considered a Culture not a race in America.
I just retired from the Military and it is not even an option on the forms for Civilian or Sevice Member. They have Black, White, pacific Islander, Asian but not Hispanic.
After you pic the above choices you then click the culture Black ( Hispanic or non Hispanic), White (Hispanic or Non Hispanic). I just laughed since the US GOV had no issue with it until the 70’s when numbers started to grow.
So I just laugh when I hear people go, " he’s white, he’s not white" .
It’s why I stay away from the Stats Game.
It does not change that night or the kids fate at all. Still dead armed with skittles and ice tea.
[/quote]
A stats “game” is all it is. But hey, if you can justify racism, poorly collected statistics seem to be the new way to do it.
Growing up, hispanic and white were not separated even on many applications or test forms.
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
If Zimmercunt had an ounce of conscience, he would turn himself in.
[/quote]
That would mean his lifetime crusade to rid his community of all crime and/or “suspicious people” was all in vain. Someone as ‘extreme’ as he seems to be would have a hard time admitting it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
If Zimmercunt had an ounce of conscience, he would turn himself in.
[/quote]
That would mean his lifetime crusade to rid his community of all crime and/or “suspicious people” was all in vain. Someone as ‘extreme’ as he seems to be would have a hard time admitting it.[/quote]
And another sad irony in all of this is, that a gated community - gated for safety and security - under the presumed clear-headed and diligent watchful eye and patrol of their captain, has suffered their worst crime ever BECAUSE of this man.
If what I gather from the news I watched this morning is correct, the dispatcher advised Zimmerman to stand down.
Thats going to be hard to play as self defense for him, and rightfully so for that sociopathic fuck.
I forget where it was said, but people using statistics to justify some sort of race connection to violence is fucking asanine.
It is a socio economic issue, as anywhere else in the world, race aside indicates. You have ghettos all over the world and without launching into paragraphs of elaboration, these situations fester a vicious cycle of social mire. Spend some time working with people in these situations and you might understand.
Racism will most likely continue as long as the human race and ignorance walk side by side, just do your part and try to alleviate it where possible and work towards some decree of social justice.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
No, I don’t. His race is being mentioned for the same reasons we brought up in this thread.
Maybe the problem is the belief that people in those situations are somehow clueless about them.
[/quote]
What I’m saying is, his race is being mentioned constantly, but Zimmerman’s race is being left obscure by people (esp. news anchors) who know he is non-white and I think this is because mentioning he is non-white is kinda a buzz kill when you’ve got a hard on for fighting racial discrimination.
Race =/= skin colour. Race is a combination of genotypes and phenotypes and yes, it certainly appears that certain genotypes cause more violent behaviour and that these particular genes are a predominantly black phenomenon. Hey, maybe this isn’t the case, but I highly doubt it.
Western society isn’t exactly kind to the idea of a genetic cause for criminal behaviour, especially if that genetic cause is applied to race. Consider this before you conclude that I’ve come to these positions lightly.
[quote]
Wait, so you are saying being black makes you more prone to crime?
You are saying black high income makers are still the criminals? People making over 100K a year are who you focused on?
Please, tell me what it is about my DNA that makes more prone to be a criminal than you if income and education have nothing to do with it.[/quote]
-
Yes. This isn’t even a debatable point. I thought we were debating causation, not the raw data itself. If by “being black” you mean “having black genetics”, then still yes. That is my position.
-
Being poor does correlate to violent crime. This is a phenomenon observed across all races in every country, but this is especially true with blacks and higher violent crime rates are observed in all income brackets and education levels. If these numbers tapered off after the “middle-class” line was crossed, you’d have a solid point, but this isn’t the case. yes, the gap shrinks, but not enough to be an adequate explanation.
-
You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m not saying, nor have I ever said that those things have nothing to do with it, just not nearly as much as you’d like to think.
I’m not a biologist, I don’t know what specifically it is about blacks that causes this, but my guess is higher T levels mixed with lower aggregate intelligence levels explains this.
Ah shit, now I’ve really alienated myself from the black T-nationers.
Look, I have no emotional investment in these statistics. If you have information that debunks what I’ve said then great, I’ll change my position, but know that I’m not ignorant on this issue by any means and these are the conclusions I’ve come to despite originally believing the same things that you believe. [/quote]
Don’t worry. You’ve alienated yourself from white posters too, not just black ones.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I’m not a biologist, I don’t know what specifically it is about blacks that causes this, but my guess is higher T levels mixed with lower aggregate intelligence levels explains this.
[/quote]
Lower aggregate intelligence?
By this theory, would Asian-Americans have less violent crime because of superior genetic intellect?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Beef and 460,
Semantics are fun but they are also the last straw for a failed argument. I don’t feel like chasing you down the rabbit hole. We all know you don’t have the facts to prove shit and are on a witch hunt, nothing more and nothing less.[/quote]
Since you seem to feel that Zimmerman acted accordingly, tell me, what should Trayvon Martin have done that night to avoid being killed?[/quote]
I’m going to let this hang…[/quote]
Oh, because he’s black? Racist! =p[/quote]no dude, it’s a phrase. How about “I am going to let this one sit…”
Except “sitting it out” and leaving the point for the picking are two completely different connotations.
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.
One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.
The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?
Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.
LOL @ “Im not racist and don’t hate anyone…but let me show you some stats that prove what you look like means you are inferior and more prone to sociopathic behavior!”
2012…and still this.
People in other countries telling black people what they should be concerned about in America has to be the most elitist bullshit since “they aren’t fully human so they will do as slaves”.