Black Teen Shot by Neighborhood Watch

Off Topic
361

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:
Trayvon Martin: Woman gave ‘inconsistent’ statement on TV, Sanford PD says

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/os-trayvon-martin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story

Derp.[/quote]

There are four videos attached to this link. The third one is an interview with a neighbor that gives some very important background on the recent history of that neighborhood. Apparently the gated community wasn’t as secure as one might think it would be.

In the weeks leading up to the shooting, Zimmerman had spotted someone casing an open window to the interviewee condo while he was out and called the police. There had been a B&E on another condo with three youths arrested and there had been another break in next door.

I won’t spoil the punchline by telling you the race of the perps and suspects you need to watch the video for yourselves. But it does cast a very different light on the case from what has been in the media.

Then there is the woman who gave police inconsistent statements, but also told them things that were consistent with what Zimmerman had told them.

[/quote]

And what does this change about the Kid?[/quote]

I think you are missing the point. There was a chain of events that lead up to the fateful moment the kid was shot. He was a victim of circumstances that he probably wasn’t even aware of. How he handled his encounter with Zimmerman is something that has not been revealed in all of this back and forth, but it would probably explain a lot.

To me it is beginning to sound like the kid walked into the middle of a situation that had been going on for a while, that he knew nothing about and maybe he said or did some things that didn’t serve him well. [/quote]

Or maybe, as I stated much earlier, Zimmerman in his haste to “not let another one get away” took the law into his own itchy trigger-finger hands.[/quote]

I agree with ID!

362

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

None of it makes up for that fact that a kid is dead, whether he is black or white or whatever color. Frankly, I am a little disgusted that there has been so much concern over the races of the people involved and not as much concern over the facts. From page 1 of this thread people have been claiming racism, while the facts available show instead it may have more to do with an unstable and overly aggressive watch captain with some major ego problems. We should have been discussing that and the problems that arise from allowing people like that to have positions that can allow them to harm others like this.[/quote]

Actually, what has been claimed is that if race was why he was seen as suspicious, then that is a racist act regardless of if he or you would call him a “racist”. [/quote]

Go back and read the first page of this thread:

“I don’t feel sorry for his disgusting racist ass.
Fuck him. And HARD.” -Iron Dwarf, 3rd post on this forum

“x2 pretty fucked up” Aggv, 4th post quoting ID

" Maybe the twitchy racist guy with the gun shouldn’t be the neighborhood watch." You, 8th post

The list goes on

You all just assumed he was racist and that was that. It was not reported that anywhere on the tapes did he identify the suspicious person as black. He described his behavior, which does sound suspicious. All the talk about race is burying the real and important issue here: Zimmerman obviously had a history of aggressive and irrational behavior and comes off as fairly unstable. Despite this, he was allowed to retain a position that allowed him to indulge in his aggressive and menacing behavior and now a kid is dead, and that is the most important issue here. This discussion should have been about why the people in his neighborhood allowed an unstable man like Zimmerman to be watch captain while knowing he was overly aggressive.

363

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
This type of racial profiling is like a cancer…IT bleeds to the minds of other races and eventually EVERYONE starts to believe it[/quote]

Racism is not something invented in the American South nor does it claim (or should be considered) that the faunt of racism flows there to infect others. Hell, it is hard to find areas around the world where there is not racism or ethnic strife. Thinking that racism is just a Southern thing let’s racist Yankees and others feel good about themselves.

364

[quote]Professor X wrote:
… I still don’t see how inserting yourself into a NON-SITUATION allows you to cry self defense when it then becomes a situation.[/quote]

THIS says it all.

365

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
All I know is a kid is dead. All of this bullshit is irrelevant if we now live in a country where I can get shot walking to my house because some jackass is carrying a gun and is too scared to NOT use it as a first resort.

Whether he was racist or not does not eclipse the bigger issue.

[/quote]
Yeah, the bigger issue of self defense to a perceived threat as defined by law in a case where we have limited detail.[/quote]

I think if you put yourself in the way of danger with the intent of stopping a perceived threat as a vigilante wannabe, your ability to scream self defense should be compromised.
[/quote]
I’ll have to re-read the Florida link but I know that in Texas, you have the legal ability to self defense, defense of another and the right to stop a crime from happening as a responsible citizen and a state “licensed” individual may use a firearm to do so.

I know this because I have the license, took the class, learned the law and passed the test.

I also have interjected on behalf of another, though I didn’t use my gun, sans punishment.

At the shell station on the NE corner of I-45 and Rayford/Sawdust in the Woodlands, I was buying gas one morning when I heard a cry for help from around the building on the other side of the station. I went to look out of curiosity and saw a guy pulling an old woman, late 70’s at least, from her car to steal it, a group of people shaking their heads at a safe distance on the phone with 911.

The police still had to arrive though and this sweet grandma was getting carjacked. So I confronted the guy, pulled him out of the driver seat as seat and dragged him inside to hold him for the police. He punched me, technically the aggressor who didn’t wait, and I beat the shit out of him.

When the police showed up he was bloody, crying a little and most likely had a broken jaw. (lots of tough guy stuff I know flame away but…it was IRL).

I gave my statement, it was verified by witnesses, I got a smile, was thanked for the help and told to have a nice day. Never heard anything else.

Now, I saw suspicious activity, knew the police were on the way, played the hero anyways and it was all legal. I hope if my dear old grandmother is ever in a similar situation, some one will help and I’m glad the law would support it.

What we still don’t know in regards to the OP is why zimmerman chose to pursue but evidence so far is backing him.

366

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
All I know is a kid is dead. All of this bullshit is irrelevant if we now live in a country where I can get shot walking to my house because some jackass is carrying a gun and is too scared to NOT use it as a first resort.

Whether he was racist or not does not eclipse the bigger issue.

[/quote]
Yeah, the bigger issue of self defense to a perceived threat as defined by law in a case where we have limited detail.[/quote]

Nice attempt…hahahah I can even see you laughing as you went to click out that line on your keyboard.
As a Gun Owner/Collector/CCW Holder myself I find this as comical as we both know you do. With the right to carry comes a BIGGER Responsibility not a smaller one.

But thanks for that. Man you are good at what you do. hahahahah[/quote]
Totally serious. Nice belittle though.

I find the hypocrisy between sentiment from posters in this thread vs. the superhero thread funny though.

And I do support the aggressive self defense laws in states such as Florida as linked, Texas et cetera for reasons I’ve already posted in this thread.

You can find humor in my opinions if you want, but they are my true opinions.[/quote]

NO BELITTLING.

I just can’t believe any Gun Advocate/Owner would think this has anything to do with GUN LAWS?

Self Defense is NOT EVEN AN ISSUE with this. Not sure why you think it is. Unless you want this to be a conversation about self defense?

The Right to Self Defense is NOT the Right to put yourself in HARMS way. Its one of the Major things we talk about when we go to get our CCW permit. We (gun owners/carriers) do not put ourselves in a postion to allow this to happen. WE avoid it.

This is has nothing to do with Stand your Ground if you are moving towards A CONFRONTATION.

I’m not going to debate this. If you believe this then ok. But Hunting is not Self Defense.

367

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

This article says that there where cries for help before the shots are fired.

Matt, I have read that “threatening” depends more on how others feel about the behavior rather than the intent. Consider, when someone say the are just trying to scare someone and that person fears for their life. My point is that being aggressive can equal threatening and would explain why the boy felt a need to fight and protect himself.

I have argued that Z is at fault for the numerious steps he took to cause the confrontation. Interestingly enough, the fact that Z is Hispanic has been argued that is enough to say he is not racist. Implies only white people can be racist.[/quote]

I don’t disagree with you one bit. I have said several times now that I believe that Zimmerman’s overly aggressive behavior is what ultimately caused this to end up in that poor kid’s death. All this talk about racism is clouding that issue. Unfortunately, the actual interactions between Zimmerman and Trayvon are unknown, so it is not going to be easy to prove that Zimmerman was acting in a threatening manner towards the kid, which I think he was, which means that Zimmerman may get out of the jail time he probably deserves. Either way, we need to be more careful about who we allow to lead and participate in our neighborhood watches and make sure they understand what their duties are and make sure they understand that they are to follow the recommendations of the police/911 operators.

368

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

None of it makes up for that fact that a kid is dead, whether he is black or white or whatever color. Frankly, I am a little disgusted that there has been so much concern over the races of the people involved and not as much concern over the facts. From page 1 of this thread people have been claiming racism, while the facts available show instead it may have more to do with an unstable and overly aggressive watch captain with some major ego problems. We should have been discussing that and the problems that arise from allowing people like that to have positions that can allow them to harm others like this.[/quote]

Actually, what has been claimed is that if race was why he was seen as suspicious, then that is a racist act regardless of if he or you would call him a “racist”. [/quote]

Go back and read the first page of this thread:

“I don’t feel sorry for his disgusting racist ass.
Fuck him. And HARD.” -Iron Dwarf, 3rd post on this forum

“x2 pretty fucked up” Aggv, 4th post quoting ID

" Maybe the twitchy racist guy with the gun shouldn’t be the neighborhood watch." You, 8th post

The list goes on

You all just assumed he was racist and that was that. It was not reported that anywhere on the tapes did he identify the suspicious person as black. He described his behavior, which does sound suspicious. All the talk about race is burying the real and important issue here: Zimmerman obviously had a history of aggressive and irrational behavior and comes off as fairly unstable. Despite this, he was allowed to retain a position that allowed him to indulge in his aggressive and menacing behavior and now a kid is dead, and that is the most important issue here. This discussion should have been about why the people in his neighborhood allowed an unstable man like Zimmerman to be watch captain while knowing he was overly aggressive.

[/quote]

I made those statements because the earlier posts about the 911 call DID say that Zimmerman described the kid as black. Call it whatever you want, Zimmerman was out to make sure “another one didn’t get away”. Because the recent incidents reported were black perpetrators, then it’s no surprise Zimmerman’s watchful eye focused squarely on the black kid walking through his neighborhood. Race most certainly was the issue in Zimmerman’s mind in that case.

369

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
This type of racial profiling is like a cancer…IT bleeds to the minds of other races and eventually EVERYONE starts to believe it[/quote]

Racism is not something invented in the American South nor does it claim (or should be considered) that the faunt of racism flows there to infect others. Hell, it is hard to find areas around the world where there is not racism or ethnic strife. Thinking that racism is just a Southern thing let’s racist Yankees and others feel good about themselves.[/quote]

I never said racism was invented in the south nor was it my intention to imply so. I am fully aware that it exists everywhere, its just that this situation hits close to home cuz I moved from there like a month ago. My connection to the racism that I personally experienced there makes me all more up in arms about a story like this.

And keep a sterotype afloat long enough and everyone will start to believe it…I’m sure thats been proved more times than can be counted.

370

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
This type of racial profiling is like a cancer…IT bleeds to the minds of other races and eventually EVERYONE starts to believe it[/quote]

Racism is not something invented in the American South nor does it claim (or should be considered) that the faunt of racism flows there to infect others. Hell, it is hard to find areas around the world where there is not racism or ethnic strife. Thinking that racism is just a Southern thing let’s racist Yankees and others feel good about themselves.[/quote]

I never said racism was invented in the south nor was it my intention to imply so. I am fully aware that it exists everywhere, its just that this situation hits close to home cuz I moved from there like a month ago. My connection to the racism that I personally experienced there makes me all more up in arms about a story like this.

And keep a sterotype afloat long enough and everyone will start to believe it…I’m sure thats been proved more times than can be counted. [/quote]

FN, I didn’t know you were black.

371

Yes I am! lol I’ve never been asked I suppose

372

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

I made those statements because the earlier posts about the 911 call DID say that Zimmerman described the kid as black. Call it whatever you want, Zimmerman was out to make sure “another one didn’t get away”. Because the recent incidents reported were black perpetrators, then it’s no surprise Zimmerman’s watchful eye focused squarely on the black kid walking through his neighborhood. Race most certainly was the issue in Zimmerman’s mind in that case.
[/quote]

But was he suspicious of the black kid because he was racist, or because the crimes had been committed by black people? Put another way: If someone sees an Asian person kill someone in a neighborhood and hasn’t been caught, is it racist to be suspicious of an Asian person acting suspiciously in that neighborhood? No. The problem here was that Zimmerman saw someone who may have matched the description of someone who has been committing crimes in the neighborhood and he went against the advice of the 911 operator, approached the kid, and given his history of overly aggressive behavior, he probably acted the same way here which ultimately caused the confrontation to escalate, no matter who threw the first punch and who had the upper hand in the fight, and ended up in the kid’s death.

*Edited to be more clear

373

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

I made those statements because the earlier posts about the 911 call DID say that Zimmerman described the kid as black. Call it whatever you want, Zimmerman was out to make sure “another one didn’t get away”. Because the recent incidents reported were black perpetrators, then it’s no surprise Zimmerman’s watchful eye focused squarely on the black kid walking through his neighborhood. Race most certainly was the issue in Zimmerman’s mind in that case.
[/quote]

But was he suspicious of the black kid because he was racist, or because the crimes had been committed by black people? Put another way: If someone sees an Asian person kill someone in a neighborhood and hasn’t been caught, is it racist to be suspicious of an Asian person acting suspiciously in that neighborhood? No. The problem here was that Zimmerman saw someone who may have matched the description of someone who has been committing crimes in the neighborhood and he went against the advice of the 911 operator, approached the kid, and given his history of overly aggressive behavior, he probably acted the same way here which ultimately caused the confrontation to escalate, no matter who threw the first punch and who had the upper hand in the fight, and ended up in the kid’s death.

*Edited to be more clear
[/quote]

I agree. Race was an issue in his mind.

Okay, maybe he’s not a racist. But racial bias certainly was a key here.

Either way, an innocent kid is shot dead, and no arrests have been made.

374

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

  1. The Huffington Post claims that Zimmerman has had complaints in the past about his aggressive methods and behavior from the neighborhood. No mention of racist behavior though. [/quote]

That is true. Zimmerman is known to have resisted arrest in the past (Martin’s record was cleaner than Zimmerman’s: if it wasn’t, they’d have jumped all over it), which points to a reactive mind that can’t “step out” of the moment to make a rational choice. For me, an inability to accede to authority indicates that Zimmerman sees himself as top dog. People who crave status are not the best people to be put in positions of responsibility , IMO .They usually make choices based on furthering or maintaining prestige (unfortunately they usually get there for that very reason but I digress).

[quote]
4) There is no evidence about who started the fight or what was said between the two before the fight broke out, which is probably the most important information to have in this case to determine guilt. I am not lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but it doesn’t seem like there is much to go on here.

Was Zimmerman overly aggressive? Probably, but I don’t think being aggressive is illegal. Was he unfairly profiling Trayvon? Maybe. If what he said on the tapes is true, Trayvon was acting suspiciously. [/quote]

I would like to know how Zimmerman identified himself. If there was no clear indication that he was neighborhood watch (e.g. sign on a car), then Trayvon was in a position where a stranger was tailing him while in contact with the police. That in itself would be seen as suspicious. If Zimmerman went incognito to maintain an element of surprise, then he failed in his duty to give due warning and any attempt to apprehend Tray pending the arrival of the real police would have ended in a struggle.

I believe Zimmerman was wrong to try to apprehend the kid on his own. But, as I said earlier, if he let Martin get away, he’d have lost face (at least in his own mind) when the cops arrived. I don’t think he’s racist, but profiling people based on suspicious behaviour is the mark of an amateur. Seasoned crims know not to act suspiciously and uncomfortable behaviour can often be misconstrued as suspicious behaviour. It’s the difference between seeing a stranger follow you in an unmarked car vs. a guy driving a vehicle with ‘neighborhood watch’ emblazoned on it.

Would Tray have attacked a guy in a clearly marked NW car? Unlikely. Would he have confronted an unidentified stranger who was following him? Far more likely.

A pack of Skittles was found on the body, which points to a possible go-go juice addiction.

375

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

I made those statements because the earlier posts about the 911 call DID say that Zimmerman described the kid as black. Call it whatever you want, Zimmerman was out to make sure “another one didn’t get away”. Because the recent incidents reported were black perpetrators, then it’s no surprise Zimmerman’s watchful eye focused squarely on the black kid walking through his neighborhood. Race most certainly was the issue in Zimmerman’s mind in that case.
[/quote]

But was he suspicious of the black kid because he was racist, or because the crimes had been committed by black people? Put another way: If someone sees an Asian person kill someone in a neighborhood and hasn’t been caught, is it racist to be suspicious of an Asian person acting suspiciously in that neighborhood? No. The problem here was that Zimmerman saw someone who may have matched the description of someone who has been committing crimes in the neighborhood and he went against the advice of the 911 operator, approached the kid, and given his history of overly aggressive behavior, he probably acted the same way here which ultimately caused the confrontation to escalate, no matter who threw the first punch and who had the upper hand in the fight, and ended up in the kid’s death.

*Edited to be more clear
[/quote]

The Problem is IF you know you have the capability to KILL someone with just the pull of a trigger why put yourself in a position to do so?

It becomes funny because I went and read the links you posted about the tapes. He said the kid was looking at the houses and walking slow and started acting weird and coming close to him.

I had to stop and think when I was a kid walking thru a place with my ice tea looking around at homes enjoying the walk and then I see someone following me in a car. I’m not sure what I would think. He said the kid walked towards the car and then ran. hahahahahah

The whole thing sounds so crazy that a kid DIED because he was walking back to his house with an Ice Tea and candy for his brother OH and because he got scared when he noticed a man in a car following him.

376

^Exactly. I doubt this kid was so unaware that he would not notice a car following him. Walking near the car to see why would not be what a criminal would do anyway.

This whole thing stinks…and the people trying to argue he wasn’t racist seem to be a little too defensive of it.

Yes, if you follow someone and accuse them of being a criminal just because they are black…and not because they are committing a crime, that is racist, whether you call yourself that or not.

377

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
He described his behavior, which does sound suspicious.

[/quote]

How? He’s a kid. If they were nice houses, that didn’t used to be a crime to walk down YOUR OWN STREET OR YOUR DAD’S looking at houses. If he noticed someone following him or saw a SUSPICIOUS FOLLOWING CAR and approached the vehicle, that again isn’t suspicious.

The jackass that was suspicious was the snooping white guy lying low in a possible unmarked car following people AT NIGHT.

LOl.

378

Man X you nailed it on the head

379

Is it not standard procedure to detain/arrest someone when they killed someone else, if only to question them and make certain of events?

380

[quote]Swolegasm wrote:
Is it not standard procedure to detain/arrest someone when they killed someone else, if only to question them and make certain of events? [/quote]

Apparently not here. We must first make sure that no one sees this as “racist” so every white person at risk of being seen that way can sleep easy.

I mean, that seems to be what the argument is about…because I don’t see how describing the black kid walking home singing to himself looking at houses in his dad’s neighborhood as a criminal because he is black and walking can be seen as anything but.

Unless this kid was breaking into a house, this is bullshit.

I mean, damn, if I walk around my neighborhood tonight looking at the nice houses…this is now SUSPICIOUS?