Black Teen Shot by Neighborhood Watch

Off Topic
321

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Maybe. He may also be a racist murdering asshole who approached the kid in order to come up with a reason to shoot him. My point was that we don’t know and don’t have access to the information we need to actually know which it is and it is incredibly wrong to label him as anything without knowing more. Either way, it is sad that the kid died, whether he was murdered or not.[/quote]

Exactly. Well said.[/quote]

Yes, Because killing a kid because you are a dumbass is not as bad as being a racist.[/quote]
He’s not a dumb ass if he was threatened, regardless of what wasn’t found after the fact.[/quote]

Read all the post in this box. It was a response to the above post.

If I’m not mistaken.

The guy did admit to killing a kid so that is not a question.
The guy did say he thought the kid was up to something and this is why he put himself near the kid.
(also not a question)

The Kid is DEAD from the guys bullet.

As HG has said a number of times in this thread a person is innocent until proven guilty in this country.

The kid also has that right (not a question)

The kid is dead. I don’t care if the guy was a Nazi or a Rambo. [/quote]
And, if a crime on behalf of Zimmerman is discovered, the tragically dead kid will have his justice.

If, on the other hand, self defense is determined, the dead kid was not innocent in his threats resulting in legal action from the innocent Zimmerman.

Yet again we…dont…know…yet and jumping conclusions is not only unfair but goes against the constitution you spent a career defending.

322

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Maybe. He may also be a racist murdering asshole who approached the kid in order to come up with a reason to shoot him. My point was that we don’t know and don’t have access to the information we need to actually know which it is and it is incredibly wrong to label him as anything without knowing more. Either way, it is sad that the kid died, whether he was murdered or not.[/quote]

Exactly. Well said.[/quote]

Yes, Because killing a kid because you are a dumbass is not as bad as being a racist.[/quote]

Look, dude, I take a second here and there to think about what I say before I hit submit. If you want to have a discussion, I’d appreciate the same courtesy from you.

NO ONE, or at least, VERY FEW PEOPLE, are excusing this Zimmerman’s actions. No one is saying, “well, it wasn’t a hate crime, so is it really THAT big of a deal?” The LAST SENTENCE in the docs post says as much.

What we HAVE been saying, from early on in this thread, is that we don’t have all the facts of this case to pass judgment on what REALLY happened… and that any accusations of him being a cutthroat racist are more ploys from the media for ratings and appeals from the family to garner sympathy. The “Skittles vs guns” sound bite is a case in point.

Stringing him up as a racist before we really know what went down is doing nothing more than killing any chance this guy has at a fair trial. You might not FEEL that he deserves one, but again – until all the facts are aired, you don’t KNOW.

No one is attempting to trivialize the loss the Martin’s must feel now, and no one is saying it could never have been an attack motivated by race… what we ARE saying, is that until we know all the facts of the case, we can’t be sure either way.[/quote]

You can only speak for yourself. So “DUDE” you should stop with the “NO ONES”. If you go thru this thread you will see things are flying all over the place.

[/quote]

anonym is the one trying to keep the thread on track. Then people, I mean ‘DUDES’ like you come in and just spit out anything that comes to their head.[/quote]

On track with what? Really. What is the track this thread should be on. THAT is my point. Trust me my statements are not now nor was it back then hit at the guy. It was my point. PERIOD.

So you are saying this thread is about not calling someone a racist? Not judging something till all the facts are in? What is the theme of this thread?

323

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Maybe. He may also be a racist murdering asshole who approached the kid in order to come up with a reason to shoot him. My point was that we don’t know and don’t have access to the information we need to actually know which it is and it is incredibly wrong to label him as anything without knowing more. Either way, it is sad that the kid died, whether he was murdered or not.[/quote]

Exactly. Well said.[/quote]

Yes, Because killing a kid because you are a dumbass is not as bad as being a racist.[/quote]

Look, dude, I take a second here and there to think about what I say before I hit submit. If you want to have a discussion, I’d appreciate the same courtesy from you.

NO ONE, or at least, VERY FEW PEOPLE, are excusing this Zimmerman’s actions. No one is saying, “well, it wasn’t a hate crime, so is it really THAT big of a deal?” The LAST SENTENCE in the docs post says as much.

What we HAVE been saying, from early on in this thread, is that we don’t have all the facts of this case to pass judgment on what REALLY happened… and that any accusations of him being a cutthroat racist are more ploys from the media for ratings and appeals from the family to garner sympathy. The “Skittles vs guns” sound bite is a case in point.

Stringing him up as a racist before we really know what went down is doing nothing more than killing any chance this guy has at a fair trial. You might not FEEL that he deserves one, but again – until all the facts are aired, you don’t KNOW.

No one is attempting to trivialize the loss the Martin’s must feel now, and no one is saying it could never have been an attack motivated by race… what we ARE saying, is that until we know all the facts of the case, we can’t be sure either way.[/quote]

You can only speak for yourself. So “DUDE” you should stop with the “NO ONES”. If you go thru this thread you will see things are flying all over the place.

[/quote]

anonym is the one trying to keep the thread on track. Then people, I mean ‘DUDES’ like you come in and just spit out anything that comes to their head.[/quote]

I’m taking some of that on track credit, dudes.

324

The whole Racist vs Death conversation should make all of us sick to DEATH.

Are we really to the point that a conversation on being called a Racist is greater than that of a Dead kid. The video of the young turks a Current TV Al gore old channel project is just as sick. Because it becomes a catch phrase that takes all our time and attention away from the fact that A KID IS DEAD story is what this should be about. And WE all of us. This thread, The media all of us turn it into a battle that has nothing to do with what this is.

DEAD KID.

325

[quote]four60 wrote:
I wont do either. Its in the thread go look for it.

As for this putting words in your mouth. My STATEMENT was just that. If you have an issue with that…tough.[/quote]

Your statement was just what, putting words in our mouths? Or a statement that was sarcastically phrased so as to suggest that we are somehow guilty of advocating that intentionally killing a kid because you are a dumbass is somehow “more OK” than killing a kid because you are a racist?

It ISN’T about the guy’s racial intentions, because we don’t know what they were just yet. The argument is about not inferring any motivation behind the attack until we have all the evidence.

The mob mentality and collective outrage might feel good, but all it is doing is muddying the waters and making intelligent discussion difficult. Most of us have already stated that it would not be surprising at all if Martin’s race was what caught Zimmerman’s eye… but we currently DO NOT KNOW THAT and we certainly have no clue as to whether or not his SHOOTING of Martin was fueled by the desire to kill a black guy.

Now, OF COURSE, are free to “state” whatever you want; however, when you QUOTE someone in your reply, please take a second to consider whether or not your reply suggests their position is something other than what they expressly state it is.

[quote]four60 wrote:
I’m making statements like you are. I have not called anyone a liar or a racist or a protector of anyone or anybody so I’m not even sure why your panties seem to be so tight. But once again. Tough.[/quote]

What is up with people on this site assuming that just because you have a differing opinion and don’t hand out gold stars to everyone you engage, you are somehow an over-involved asshole?

326

[quote]four60 wrote:
The whole Racist vs Death conversation should make all of us sick to DEATH.

Are we really to the point that a conversation on being called a Racist is greater than that of a Dead kid. The video of the young turks a Current TV Al gore old channel project is just as sick. Because it becomes a catch phrase that takes all our time and attention away from the fact that A KID IS DEAD story is what this should be about. And WE all of us. This thread, The media all of us turn it into a battle that has nothing to do with what this is.

DEAD KID. [/quote]

Exactly.

The media painting Zimmerman as a racist vigilante for greater attention, and the family doing likewise to garner additional exposure and support, are both making statements that are – as of yet – factually unsupported by the evidence to the extent that we can definitively say it is the case.

The fact that a young man is dead is tragedy enough. Obviously, some feel that it ISN’T for one reason or another, and that the only way more people will care is if that button is pushed.

Obviously, it works. The problem, however, is that it distracts from the REAL issue and clouds the judgment of many people.

327

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
I wont do either. Its in the thread go look for it.

As for this putting words in your mouth. My STATEMENT was just that. If you have an issue with that…tough.[/quote]

Your statement was just what, putting words in our mouths? Or a statement that was sarcastically phrased so as to suggest that we are somehow guilty of advocating that intentionally killing a kid because you are a dumbass is somehow “more OK” than killing a kid because you are a racist?

It ISN’T about the guy’s racial intentions, because we don’t know what they were just yet. The argument is about not inferring any motivation behind the attack until we have all the evidence.

The mob mentality and collective outrage might feel good, but all it is doing is muddying the waters and making intelligent discussion difficult. Most of us have already stated that it would not be surprising at all if Martin’s race was what caught Zimmerman’s eye… but we currently DO NOT KNOW THAT and we certainly have no clue as to whether or not his SHOOTING of Martin was fueled by the desire to kill a black guy.

Now, OF COURSE, are free to “state” whatever you want; however, when you QUOTE someone in your reply, please take a second to consider whether or not your reply suggests their position is something other than what they expressly state it is.

[quote]four60 wrote:
I’m making statements like you are. I have not called anyone a liar or a racist or a protector of anyone or anybody so I’m not even sure why your panties seem to be so tight. But once again. Tough.[/quote]

What is up with people on this site assuming that just because you have a differing opinion and don’
t hand out gold stars to everyone you engage, you are somehow an over-involved asshole?[/quote]

Yeah what is it with people and that.

328

[quote]TDub301 wrote:
Where have you been this whole thread Dr. Matt? We were all in a clusterfuck that you just explained perfectly and could’ve used this several pages ago. (or in other words, everything you just said has already been stated, just not quite as well imo).[/quote]

I’ve been avoiding this thread like the plague. I knew just from the title and number of posts what the thread was going to look like and decided to stay away. I was PM’d about that video and just couldn’t help but say something.

329

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
The whole Racist vs Death conversation should make all of us sick to DEATH.

Are we really to the point that a conversation on being called a Racist is greater than that of a Dead kid. The video of the young turks a Current TV Al gore old channel project is just as sick. Because it becomes a catch phrase that takes all our time and attention away from the fact that A KID IS DEAD story is what this should be about. And WE all of us. This thread, The media all of us turn it into a battle that has nothing to do with what this is.

DEAD KID. [/quote]

Exactly.

The media painting Zimmerman as a racist vigilante for greater attention, and the family doing likewise to garner additional exposure and support, are both making statements that are – as of yet – factually unsupported by the evidence to the extent that we can definitively say it is the case.

The fact that a young man is dead is tragedy enough. Obviously, some feel that it ISN’T for one reason or another, and that the only way more people will care is if that button is pushed.

Obviously, it works. The problem, however, is that it distracts from the REAL issue and clouds the judgment of many people.[/quote]

And this is not for the family because they are going to do and say whatever they can to get attention for the case. BUT…

What does conversations like this equal to-15 pages of Zimmerman
(Racist or Not).

We are also part of the problem.

330

[quote]four60 wrote:
What does conversations like this equal to-15 pages of Zimmerman
(Racist or Not).

We are also part of the problem.[/quote]

I can’t help but feel that it’s only because the reflexive action is to believe that Martin clearly did nothing wrong, and that it all must therefore fall squarely on Zimmerman’s shoulders.

Beyond that, it’s an (oftentimes, emotionally-driven) attempt to make sense of the tragedy. Painting the dude as a sociopathic predator makes it easiest to swallow.

Obviously, Zimmerman is to blame in that Martin would be alive if they never crossed paths. Obviously, Zimmerman is to blame in that Martin wasn’t doing anything wrong at the time of the “profile”. He is obviously to blame in that, based on his history, it is very likely that Martin didn’t do anything he didn’t feel was justified in order to protect himself from some dude with a firearm hassling him (i.e., it wasn’t a random case of one asshole targeting another).

Zimmerman is the focus in that he was both the catalyst AND the one who walked away. The fact that he goes on to claim self defense only fuels the outrage considering that all evidence we have currently suggests he not only made every move that forced the escalation, but also willfully disregarded basic advice that would have kept this from boiling over.

Sorry about the length of these posts; I’m on Adderall right meow.

331

[quote]anonym wrote:

Sorry about the length of these posts; I’m on Adderall right meow.[/quote]

Adderall kicks ass. It got me through graduate school without going completely insane.

332

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

Sorry about the length of these posts; I’m on Adderall right meow.[/quote]

Adderall kicks ass. It got me through graduate school without going completely insane.[/quote]

LOL that it does.

It also makes for uncomfortably long, embarrassingly self-indulgent posts on the interwebz, but at least I have fun writing them.

333

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Rico Suave wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Maybe. He may also be a racist murdering asshole who approached the kid in order to come up with a reason to shoot him. My point was that we don’t know and don’t have access to the information we need to actually know which it is and it is incredibly wrong to label him as anything without knowing more. Either way, it is sad that the kid died, whether he was murdered or not.[/quote]

Exactly. Well said.[/quote]

Yes, Because killing a kid because you are a dumbass is not as bad as being a racist.[/quote]

Look, dude, I take a second here and there to think about what I say before I hit submit. If you want to have a discussion, I’d appreciate the same courtesy from you.

NO ONE, or at least, VERY FEW PEOPLE, are excusing this Zimmerman’s actions. No one is saying, “well, it wasn’t a hate crime, so is it really THAT big of a deal?” The LAST SENTENCE in the docs post says as much.

What we HAVE been saying, from early on in this thread, is that we don’t have all the facts of this case to pass judgment on what REALLY happened… and that any accusations of him being a cutthroat racist are more ploys from the media for ratings and appeals from the family to garner sympathy. The “Skittles vs guns” sound bite is a case in point.

Stringing him up as a racist before we really know what went down is doing nothing more than killing any chance this guy has at a fair trial. You might not FEEL that he deserves one, but again – until all the facts are aired, you don’t KNOW.

No one is attempting to trivialize the loss the Martin’s must feel now, and no one is saying it could never have been an attack motivated by race… what we ARE saying, is that until we know all the facts of the case, we can’t be sure either way.[/quote]

You can only speak for yourself. So “DUDE” you should stop with the “NO ONES”. If you go thru this thread you will see things are flying all over the place.

[/quote]

anonym is the one trying to keep the thread on track. Then people, I mean ‘DUDES’ like you come in and just spit out anything that comes to their head.[/quote]

I’m taking some of that on track credit, dudes.[/quote]

Yah, he can share.

334

[quote]anonym wrote:
Witness claims the police blew her off:

http://www.wdbo.com/news/news/local/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLTCd/[/quote]

This is a good example of the kind of silliness that is going on around this case. The woman says she heard someone, who she couldn’t see, crying for help, then there was a gunshot and no more cries for help. Up to that point she is saying what she heard.

But then she goes on to say it must have been the boy crying for help because the cries for help went silent after the gunshot. At that point she is making a guess and offering opinion, because by her own admission she did not see who was calling for help.

335

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
What does conversations like this equal to-15 pages of Zimmerman
(Racist or Not).

We are also part of the problem.[/quote]

I can’t help but feel that it’s only because the reflexive action is to believe that Martin clearly did nothing wrong, and that it all must therefore fall squarely on Zimmerman’s shoulders.

Beyond that, it’s an (oftentimes, emotionally-driven) attempt to make sense of the tragedy. Painting the dude as a sociopathic predator makes it easiest to swallow.

Obviously, Zimmerman is to blame in that Martin would be alive if they never crossed paths. Obviously, Zimmerman is to blame in that Martin wasn’t doing anything wrong at the time of the “profile”. He is obviously to blame in that, based on his history, it is very likely that Martin didn’t do anything he didn’t feel was justified in order to protect himself from some dude with a firearm hassling him (i.e., it wasn’t a random case of one asshole targeting another).

Zimmerman is the focus in that he was both the catalyst AND the one who walked away. The fact that he goes on to claim self defense only fuels the outrage considering that all evidence we have currently suggests he not only made every move that forced the escalation, but also willfully disregarded basic advice that would have kept this from boiling over.

Sorry about the length of these posts; I’m on Adderall right meow.[/quote]

Didn’t I say something about this earlier, left woof?

336

[quote]anonym wrote:
Trayvon Martin: Woman gave ‘inconsistent’ statement on TV, Sanford PD says

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/os-trayvon-martin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story

Derp.[/quote]

There are four videos attached to this link. The third one is an interview with a neighbor that gives some very important background on the recent history of that neighborhood. Apparently the gated community wasn’t as secure as one might think it would be.

In the weeks leading up to the shooting, Zimmerman had spotted someone casing an open window to the interviewee condo while he was out and called the police. There had been a B&E on another condo with three youths arrested and there had been another break in next door.

I won’t spoil the punchline by telling you the race of the perps and suspects you need to watch the video for yourselves. But it does cast a very different light on the case from what has been in the media.

Then there is the woman who gave police inconsistent statements, but also told them things that were consistent with what Zimmerman had told them.

337

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:
Trayvon Martin: Woman gave ‘inconsistent’ statement on TV, Sanford PD says

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/os-trayvon-martin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story

Derp.[/quote]

There are four videos attached to this link. The third one is an interview with a neighbor that gives some very important background on the recent history of that neighborhood. Apparently the gated community wasn’t as secure as one might think it would be.

In the weeks leading up to the shooting, Zimmerman had spotted someone casing an open window to the interviewee condo while he was out and called the police. There had been a B&E on another condo with three youths arrested and there had been another break in next door.

I won’t spoil the punchline by telling you the race of the perps and suspects you need to watch the video for yourselves. But it does cast a very different light on the case from what has been in the media.

Then there is the woman who gave police inconsistent statements, but also told them things that were consistent with what Zimmerman had told them.

[/quote]
Pretty weird how news stories influenced by the family’s lawyer would have a certain, deceiving slant.

Wait, maybe not so weird.

338

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:
Trayvon Martin: Woman gave ‘inconsistent’ statement on TV, Sanford PD says

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/os-trayvon-martin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story

Derp.[/quote]

There are four videos attached to this link. The third one is an interview with a neighbor that gives some very important background on the recent history of that neighborhood. Apparently the gated community wasn’t as secure as one might think it would be.

In the weeks leading up to the shooting, Zimmerman had spotted someone casing an open window to the interviewee condo while he was out and called the police. There had been a B&E on another condo with three youths arrested and there had been another break in next door.

I won’t spoil the punchline by telling you the race of the perps and suspects you need to watch the video for yourselves. But it does cast a very different light on the case from what has been in the media.

Then there is the woman who gave police inconsistent statements, but also told them things that were consistent with what Zimmerman had told them.

[/quote]

And what does this change about the Kid?

339

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

Sorry about the length of these posts; I’m on Adderall right meow.[/quote]

Adderall kicks ass. It got me through graduate school without going completely insane.[/quote]

LOL that it does.

It also makes for uncomfortably long, embarrassingly self-indulgent posts on the interwebz, but at least I have fun writing them.[/quote]

Spike can work pretty good too. Helps me a ton with grad school.

What I find really wierd is that they won’t release the 911 phone call for evidence.

340

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:
Trayvon Martin: Woman gave ‘inconsistent’ statement on TV, Sanford PD says

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/os-trayvon-martin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story

Derp.[/quote]

There are four videos attached to this link. The third one is an interview with a neighbor that gives some very important background on the recent history of that neighborhood. Apparently the gated community wasn’t as secure as one might think it would be.

In the weeks leading up to the shooting, Zimmerman had spotted someone casing an open window to the interviewee condo while he was out and called the police. There had been a B&E on another condo with three youths arrested and there had been another break in next door.

I won’t spoil the punchline by telling you the race of the perps and suspects you need to watch the video for yourselves. But it does cast a very different light on the case from what has been in the media.

Then there is the woman who gave police inconsistent statements, but also told them things that were consistent with what Zimmerman had told them.

[/quote]

And what does this change about the Kid?[/quote]

I think you are missing the point. There was a chain of events that lead up to the fateful moment the kid was shot. He was a victim of circumstances that he probably wasn’t even aware of. How he handled his encounter with Zimmerman is something that has not been revealed in all of this back and forth, but it would probably explain a lot.

To me it is beginning to sound like the kid walked into the middle of a situation that had been going on for a while, that he knew nothing about and maybe he said or did some things that didn’t serve him well.