[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
I am curious as to why he did not follow directions? Why would an armed man get out of the car and follow a ‘suspect’ individual, who ‘presumably is on something’? Why?
Did he want to prove himself worthy of being a cop?
[/quote]
Exactly.
Based on his past track record of 911 calls, it’s clear he had a huge chip on his shoulder.
Townwatchman wannabe hero.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If my intent is to avoid killing someone unless absolutely necessary, I would think my actions right after the shooting would be extremely important in determining mind set. It doesn’t sound like any CPR was performed on this kid until several minutes later when the ambulance arrived…after he was already dead. That is why I asked if there was any attempt at all to save this kid’s life.
I agree with IamMarqaos about the chances this has and agree with what he should have been charged with.
Even if he thought this was a grown man at first, up close, he was clearly fighting a kid. I also don’t doubt that Zimmerman may have bruised his own head himself during the altercation and a bruise doesn’t mean the other guy inflicted it. I doubt Zimmerman has “cat-like” reflexes.
My guess is, Zimmerman thought he had shot a simple random criminal and treated the kid that way until he found out who the kid was. That will have to play a role in this in court even if it doesn’t have a drastic effect on the outcome.[/quote]
While your actions may very well important, a non-expert witness’ interpretation of your actions, especially when it goes so far as to speculate on your state of mind, is not.
What witnesses actually saw will definitely have a role to play in court. Their opinions about what they saw should not (i.e.“I do honestly feel that he intended for this kid to die”)
That is not evidence.
Regarding CPR (which none of the witnesses moved to provide either, apparently): IF(big if) you had just been in an altercation which you perceived as serious enough to justify the use of lethal force, and you had just shot someone from from 0-18 inches away while struggling with them, you may very well not immediately change gears into lifesaving mode. This is not uncommon at all. You may also exhibit all kinds of other, widely varied behaviour, much of which might appear strange to most people. This is why witnesses testify as to what they saw and expert witnesses testify with their opinions as to the possible significance of such.
I don’t know what happened that night, but what this case does NOT need is more opinion.
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
@ Tigertime: That’s what you got from that?
Not one, but two witnesses described him a certain way, Witness 13 and Witness 5. It is important especially since Zimmerman acted against what he was told to do by the 911 operator AND what is standard practice with neighborhood watchmen. They are supposed to ‘watch’, report to the police, ‘watch some more’ and wait for the police to arrive.
He did not, he got out of the car, against expressed advice, while armed and started following a young man. The young man freaked, attacked (maybe, we don’t know who really threw the first hit, got the upper hand and was killed for it (note I did not say murdered).
I am curious as to why he did not follow directions? Why would an armed man get out of the car and follow a ‘suspect’ individual, who ‘presumably is on something’? Why?
Did he want to prove himself worthy of being a cop?
They are trying to convict him for murder, they are going to have to prove he had intent to kill. Witness statements like this are important.
And so we are on the same page, I did not cut and paste this with a certain intent in mind, merely to add new info released.
I personally think it will be impossible to convict him of murder and they should have gone for involuntary manslaughter. [/quote]
He did. He stopped pursuing Martin and went back towards his car. I don’t think you’ve actually listened to the call between Zimmerman and the police.
Saying Zimmerman ‘didn’t look like he was in shock enough’ will make zero difference in court because it’s fucking stupid. It doesn’t mean he wanted to kill martin and it doesn’t mean Martin didn’t attack first. It’s a non sequitur.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
@ Tigertime: That’s what you got from that?
Not one, but two witnesses described him a certain way, Witness 13 and Witness 5. It is important especially since Zimmerman acted against what he was told to do by the 911 operator AND what is standard practice with neighborhood watchmen. They are supposed to ‘watch’, report to the police, ‘watch some more’ and wait for the police to arrive.
He did not, he got out of the car, against expressed advice, while armed and started following a young man. The young man freaked, attacked (maybe, we don’t know who really threw the first hit, got the upper hand and was killed for it (note I did not say murdered).
I am curious as to why he did not follow directions? Why would an armed man get out of the car and follow a ‘suspect’ individual, who ‘presumably is on something’? Why?
Did he want to prove himself worthy of being a cop?
They are trying to convict him for murder, they are going to have to prove he had intent to kill. Witness statements like this are important.
And so we are on the same page, I did not cut and paste this with a certain intent in mind, merely to add new info released.
I personally think it will be impossible to convict him of murder and they should have gone for involuntary manslaughter. [/quote]
He did. He stopped pursuing Martin and went back towards his car. I don’t think you’ve actually listened to the call between Zimmerman and the police.
Saying Zimmerman ‘didn’t look like he was in shock enough’ will make zero difference in court because it’s fucking stupid. It doesn’t mean he wanted to kill martin and it doesn’t mean Martin didn’t attack first. It’s a non sequitur. [/quote]
That first part is a guess that the full 911 tape does not support or deny. I’ve heard the Whole tape and can’t say what direction he was walking in.
As far as " did Zim look shocked enough" I don’t think it matters because not everyone shows emotion in the same way that’s only in the movies.
But to say will it matter in court? That’s hard to say, it hard to say how 12 people will see the evidence.
[quote]four60 wrote:
That’s hard to say, it hard to say how 12 people will see the evidence.
[/quote]
I think many are missing that major point.
The jury is an X-factor. You may be able to guess the probability of an outcome…but a couple of anxious jurors could change that.
There are lots of people in jail right now who didn’t commit a crime because of those same juries.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
@ Tigertime: That’s what you got from that?
Not one, but two witnesses described him a certain way, Witness 13 and Witness 5. It is important especially since Zimmerman acted against what he was told to do by the 911 operator AND what is standard practice with neighborhood watchmen. They are supposed to ‘watch’, report to the police, ‘watch some more’ and wait for the police to arrive.
He did not, he got out of the car, against expressed advice, while armed and started following a young man. The young man freaked, attacked (maybe, we don’t know who really threw the first hit, got the upper hand and was killed for it (note I did not say murdered).
I am curious as to why he did not follow directions? Why would an armed man get out of the car and follow a ‘suspect’ individual, who ‘presumably is on something’? Why?
Did he want to prove himself worthy of being a cop?
They are trying to convict him for murder, they are going to have to prove he had intent to kill. Witness statements like this are important.
And so we are on the same page, I did not cut and paste this with a certain intent in mind, merely to add new info released.
I personally think it will be impossible to convict him of murder and they should have gone for involuntary manslaughter. [/quote]
He did. He stopped pursuing Martin and went back towards his car. I don’t think you’ve actually listened to the call between Zimmerman and the police.
Saying Zimmerman ‘didn’t look like he was in shock enough’ will make zero difference in court because it’s fucking stupid. It doesn’t mean he wanted to kill martin and it doesn’t mean Martin didn’t attack first. It’s a non sequitur. [/quote]
I did listen. Several times. I did not say Zimmerman did not go back to his car. Problem is, he got out of the car and spooked the boy. Listen to it again yourself. Trayvon was looking at George, even coming a bit his way, and Zimmerman said nothing, kept talking on the phone. What do you think that means to a black kid? You see a guy tracking you, talking on the phone, staring at you etc.
My gay friend would immediately think that Zimmerman was going to call his buddies to do some gay bashing. Black kids/people might feel some white assholes are about to come and put the hurt on him.
Trayvon eventually coming after George is not an ‘odd’ response.
Think about this, George is telling the operator that Trayvon is looking at him, coming his way…
Why not say:“he, I got the cops on the line, what’s your business here?”
Within 15 seconds that situation would have been resolved. Kid would have been alive and Zimmerman wouldn’t have to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life.
My question remains the same. Why?
I feel, based on the call, that Zimmerman really wanted Trayvon to be a bad apple, so he could get some credit. “These assholes always run”.
Well no shit, Sherlock, if I had an adult tracking me, following me, looking at me while being on the phone I would high tail it out of there too!
And I would circle back to see WTF. I would feel threatened by it.
So again, why the fuck did Zimmerman not communicate with Trayvon when Trayvon was directly looking at him and coming towards him? The call was being recorded, would have been perfect.
I am not arguing against the fact that Trayvon came back and attacked first. We do not know. It does make sense, cause I think it reasonable action for anyone who feels threatened. Yes it would have been smarter to run, however, in my mind I would not want the ‘bad’ guy to follow me and find out where I live…
A 10 second communication would have prevented this mess. That’s all I am saying.
Murder? No. Involuntary manslaughter? Would have been the best option for the prosecution.
/rant
IamMarqos, we have said the same thing several times over more than one thread about this. It seems there actually is such a cultural difference that many people would run straight home with someone following them or see some strange person stalking them and simply keep walking home.
I agree with everything you wrote.
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
@ Tigertime: That’s what you got from that?
Not one, but two witnesses described him a certain way, Witness 13 and Witness 5. It is important especially since Zimmerman acted against what he was told to do by the 911 operator AND what is standard practice with neighborhood watchmen. They are supposed to ‘watch’, report to the police, ‘watch some more’ and wait for the police to arrive.
He did not, he got out of the car, against expressed advice, while armed and started following a young man. The young man freaked, attacked (maybe, we don’t know who really threw the first hit, got the upper hand and was killed for it (note I did not say murdered).
I am curious as to why he did not follow directions? Why would an armed man get out of the car and follow a ‘suspect’ individual, who ‘presumably is on something’? Why?
Did he want to prove himself worthy of being a cop?
They are trying to convict him for murder, they are going to have to prove he had intent to kill. Witness statements like this are important.
And so we are on the same page, I did not cut and paste this with a certain intent in mind, merely to add new info released.
I personally think it will be impossible to convict him of murder and they should have gone for involuntary manslaughter. [/quote]
He did. He stopped pursuing Martin and went back towards his car. I don’t think you’ve actually listened to the call between Zimmerman and the police.
Saying Zimmerman ‘didn’t look like he was in shock enough’ will make zero difference in court because it’s fucking stupid. It doesn’t mean he wanted to kill martin and it doesn’t mean Martin didn’t attack first. It’s a non sequitur. [/quote]
I did listen. Several times. I did not say Zimmerman did not go back to his car. Problem is, he got out of the car and spooked the boy. Listen to it again yourself. Trayvon was looking at George, even coming a bit his way, and Zimmerman said nothing, kept talking on the phone. What do you think that means to a black kid? You see a guy tracking you, talking on the phone, staring at you etc.
My gay friend would immediately think that Zimmerman was going to call his buddies to do some gay bashing. Black kids/people might feel some white assholes are about to come and put the hurt on him.
Trayvon eventually coming after George is not an ‘odd’ response.
Think about this, George is telling the operator that Trayvon is looking at him, coming his way…
Why not say:“he, I got the cops on the line, what’s your business here?”
Within 15 seconds that situation would have been resolved. Kid would have been alive and Zimmerman wouldn’t have to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life.
My question remains the same. Why?
I feel, based on the call, that Zimmerman really wanted Trayvon to be a bad apple, so he could get some credit. “These assholes always run”.
Well no shit, Sherlock, if I had an adult tracking me, following me, looking at me while being on the phone I would high tail it out of there too!
And I would circle back to see WTF. I would feel threatened by it.
So again, why the fuck did Zimmerman not communicate with Trayvon when Trayvon was directly looking at him and coming towards him? The call was being recorded, would have been perfect.
I am not arguing against the fact that Trayvon came back and attacked first. We do not know. It does make sense, cause I think it reasonable action for anyone who feels threatened. Yes it would have been smarter to run, however, in my mind I would not want the ‘bad’ guy to follow me and find out where I live…
A 10 second communication would have prevented this mess. That’s all I am saying.
Murder? No. Involuntary manslaughter? Would have been the best option for the prosecution.
/rant[/quote]
Good post and exactly my expressed thoughts posted much earlier.
Trayvon did not deserve to die, as some here seem so hellbent on making a case against and siding with Zimmerman.
Zimmerman made it all happen. If he has to look over his shoulder the rest of his life, perhaps THAT is justice.
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
And I would circle back to see WTF. I would feel threatened by it.
[/quote]
Stop right here.
So, let’s get this straight. You’re worried a guy is calling up all of his bigot buddies to come and lynch you. He gets out of his vehicle and you, feeling threatened, decide to “high tail” it out of there.
We know from the transcript of the 911 call that Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon at one point, telling the dispatch operator that “he ran” and that he “doesn’t know where this kid is.” From that point in the call until Zimmerman hangs up the phone is approximately a minute and a half.
We also know from the maps of the neighborhood that Trayvon was at most a couple hundred yards from his house.
So you’ve lost your pursuer, you have a minute and a half head start, HE CAN’T SEE YOU AND THUS DOES NOT KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING AND CAN NOT FOLLOW YOU HOME (caps to head off the retarded argument you are already forming in your mind).
At this point, you honestly believe the wisest course of action is to turn around, head back and confront the guy?
Bullshit.
PS How would random bigots on the street even know your friend is gay? Your entire post is complete garbage.
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
And I would circle back to see WTF. I would feel threatened by it.
[/quote]
Stop right here.
So, let’s get this straight. You’re worried a guy is calling up all of his bigot buddies to come and lynch you. He gets out of his vehicle and you, feeling threatened, decide to “high tail” it out of there.
We know from the transcript of the 911 call that Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon at one point, telling the dispatch operator that “he ran” and that he “doesn’t know where this kid is.” From that point in the call until Zimmerman hangs up the phone is approximately a minute and a half.
We also know from the maps of the neighborhood that Trayvon was at most a couple hundred yards from his house.
So you’ve lost your pursuer, you have a minute and a half head start, HE CAN’T SEE YOU AND THUS DOES NOT KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING AND CAN NOT FOLLOW YOU HOME (caps to head off the retarded argument you are already forming in your mind).
At this point, you honestly believe the wisest course of action is to turn around, head back and confront the guy?
Bullshit.
PS How would random bigots on the street even know your friend is gay? Your entire post is complete garbage.[/quote]
?
Unless Trayvon was psychic how would he be sure he lost his attacker? He would only know this if he OBSERVED his attacker leaving…which would require being in view of him. You have no idea who attacked who first.
Several people have now said running home when being followed is dumb as shit especially when you still don’t know why…which is likely why Trayvon approached Zimmerman.
From what I have seen of Zimmerman, he is a short guy who doesn’t even look coordinated. Yes, I could see a scenario where Trayvon is observing Zimmerman and then decides he isn’t that much of a physical threat once out the truck.
So much projecting happening in this thread.
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
And I would circle back to see WTF. I would feel threatened by it.
[/quote]
Stop right here.
So, let’s get this straight. You’re worried a guy is calling up all of his bigot buddies to come and lynch you. He gets out of his vehicle and you, feeling threatened, decide to “high tail” it out of there.
We know from the transcript of the 911 call that Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon at one point, telling the dispatch operator that “he ran” and that he “doesn’t know where this kid is.” From that point in the call until Zimmerman hangs up the phone is approximately a minute and a half.
We also know from the maps of the neighborhood that Trayvon was at most a couple hundred yards from his house.
So you’ve lost your pursuer, you have a minute and a half head start, HE CAN’T SEE YOU AND THUS DOES NOT KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING AND CAN NOT FOLLOW YOU HOME (caps to head off the retarded argument you are already forming in your mind).
At this point, you honestly believe the wisest course of action is to turn around, head back and confront the guy?
Bullshit.
PS How would random bigots on the street even know your friend is gay? Your entire post is complete garbage.[/quote]
God Almighty.
[quote]gregron wrote:
So much projecting happening in this thread.[/quote]
That is a process to try to make sense of what happened, no?
Will he not be judged by his peers? Will they not think about what a reasonable person would have done in the same position? What do you think they are going to do to reach a decision? Aren’t they going to wonder about why Zimmerman didn’t ask Trayvon anything when they were looking at each other and he had the 911 operator on the phone? Or at any other time?
If I were on the jury that would definitely be something that would cause doubt in my mind about Zimmerman’s motives…
Not saying that I think he is guilty of murder. And there is still so much we do not know…
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
And I would circle back to see WTF. I would feel threatened by it.
[/quote]
Stop right here.
So, let’s get this straight. You’re worried a guy is calling up all of his bigot buddies to come and lynch you. He gets out of his vehicle and you, feeling threatened, decide to “high tail” it out of there.
We know from the transcript of the 911 call that Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon at one point, telling the dispatch operator that “he ran” and that he “doesn’t know where this kid is.” From that point in the call until Zimmerman hangs up the phone is approximately a minute and a half.
We also know from the maps of the neighborhood that Trayvon was at most a couple hundred yards from his house.
So you’ve lost your pursuer, you have a minute and a half head start, HE CAN’T SEE YOU AND THUS DOES NOT KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GOING AND CAN NOT FOLLOW YOU HOME (caps to head off the retarded argument you are already forming in your mind).
At this point, you honestly believe the wisest course of action is to turn around, head back and confront the guy?
Bullshit.
PS How would random bigots on the street even know your friend is gay? Your entire post is complete garbage.[/quote]
God Almighty, of the many who have posted here you truly are by far the most retarded one.
[/quote]
Translation: I have no rebuttal. The facts don’t fit my preconceived version of events so I’m going to ignore them.
…
[quote]jeep69 wrote:
The 7-11 video of martin was released the other day, He looked much different from any pictures the media had flashed of him…
I understand the outcry and hopefully the courts will make the correct decision but am I the only one that feels the media/jessie jackson/.sharpton should be held accountable for social unrest or some type of criminal action by verbally lynching what is now looking more and more like an innocent man that killed a kid in self defense?
Where is the accountability in the media for spinning this bullshit and tyring to racially divide the coutry on this matter? Do jackson or sharpton have anything to say about the new evidence or can they be held to some sory of civil unrest charge.
IF he gets off black people will riot and there will be a shit storm… but I do not feel he should be convicted of Murder and that would be an absoloute TRAVISTY of justice if a man was convicted of murder because of media hype and social unrest.
If he is conviceted is there any rioting for Zimmerman’s supporters or would that be viewed as racist to openly support him, total shitstorm and no way anyone wins in this, they should have pushed for manslaughter not murder, what a fucking kick in the ass the DA is going to get[/quote]
THIS…THIS…THIS.
The race baiters show up, smile for the camera, ignite some sort of race war then move on to the next news cycle…Duke Lacross all over again.
You will NEVER hear the good Reverend’s apologize for their tactics…even though they destroy lives with what they do.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]jeep69 wrote:
The 7-11 video of martin was released the other day, He looked much different from any pictures the media had flashed of him…
I understand the outcry and hopefully the courts will make the correct decision but am I the only one that feels the media/jessie jackson/.sharpton should be held accountable for social unrest or some type of criminal action by verbally lynching what is now looking more and more like an innocent man that killed a kid in self defense?
Where is the accountability in the media for spinning this bullshit and tyring to racially divide the coutry on this matter? Do jackson or sharpton have anything to say about the new evidence or can they be held to some sory of civil unrest charge.
IF he gets off black people will riot and there will be a shit storm… but I do not feel he should be convicted of Murder and that would be an absoloute TRAVISTY of justice if a man was convicted of murder because of media hype and social unrest.
If he is conviceted is there any rioting for Zimmerman’s supporters or would that be viewed as racist to openly support him, total shitstorm and no way anyone wins in this, they should have pushed for manslaughter not murder, what a fucking kick in the ass the DA is going to get[/quote]
THIS…THIS…THIS.
The race baiters show up, smile for the camera, ignite some sort of race war then move on to the next news cycle…Duke Lacross all over again.
You will NEVER hear the good Reverend’s apologize for their tactics…even though they destroy lives with what they do.[/quote]
race baiters like Sharpton never apologize. he’s there to stir crap up and beat the drum of racism whether it’s there or not. i hope all of america will catch on eventually and we can be done with scum like him. [/quote]
I wish…MSNBC just gave the “reverend” Al his own talk show…their stupidity will never go away.
And we are much worse off for it.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
[quote]jeep69 wrote:
The 7-11 video of martin was released the other day, He looked much different from any pictures the media had flashed of him…
I understand the outcry and hopefully the courts will make the correct decision but am I the only one that feels the media/jessie jackson/.sharpton should be held accountable for social unrest or some type of criminal action by verbally lynching what is now looking more and more like an innocent man that killed a kid in self defense?
Where is the accountability in the media for spinning this bullshit and tyring to racially divide the coutry on this matter? Do jackson or sharpton have anything to say about the new evidence or can they be held to some sory of civil unrest charge.
IF he gets off black people will riot and there will be a shit storm… but I do not feel he should be convicted of Murder and that would be an absoloute TRAVISTY of justice if a man was convicted of murder because of media hype and social unrest.
If he is conviceted is there any rioting for Zimmerman’s supporters or would that be viewed as racist to openly support him, total shitstorm and no way anyone wins in this, they should have pushed for manslaughter not murder, what a fucking kick in the ass the DA is going to get[/quote]
THIS…THIS…THIS.
The race baiters show up, smile for the camera, ignite some sort of race war then move on to the next news cycle…Duke Lacross all over again.
You will NEVER hear the good Reverend’s apologize for their tactics…even though they destroy lives with what they do.[/quote]
race baiters like Sharpton never apologize. he’s there to stir crap up and beat the drum of racism whether it’s there or not. i hope all of america will catch on eventually and we can be done with scum like him. [/quote]
I wish…MSNBC just gave the “reverend” Al his own talk show…their stupidity will never go away.
And we are much worse off for it.[/quote]
Ha! I consider it “equal time” for all the dipshits over at Fox News.