Black Teen Shot 2

Off Topic
741

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]FrozenNinja wrote:
Just need a quick reply here…all those who are arguing that Zimmerman shooting the kid was “justified” or still waiting for “the facts to come out”…How many of you actually believe racism, racial profiling and discrimination is still exsisting and PREVELANT in today’s society???[/quote]

I do. I just do not attach it to every case that I read about just because it does happen and is relatively common. That is a good way to wind up with your foot in your mouth. It is also not just racial issues that I require a lot of evidence in order to reach any conclusions. I am a scientist, it just sort of comes with the territory. [/quote]

Yeah I understand where you’re coming from. Well that’s one so far.[/quote]

I’m no scientist but I agree with his comments on the issue. So there’s two.

742

My two cents.

(1) Reading this thread has largely moved me to HG’s position. We don’t know what happened, and it’s entirely possible that Zimmerman was absolutely within his legal rights. A media firestorm is not a replacement for a trial.

(2) Imagine this scenario. There’s strong gun control in Florida. Zimmerman has no gun. Same situation, same (apparent) bad handling of it by Zimmerman. Worst case? Zimmerman gets badly beaten up, Martin either gets away with it or gets charged. VERY unlikely anybody dies, nobody’s life is destroyed.

Gun control, people.

743

Hell even as a firefighter, some cops treat us like shit. We had a house fire this past week where the cop (not a local) on scene was an absolute asshole to us (we saved the house by the way). I am awaiting the day one of the cops is an asshole to me while I’m an incident commander and I have the legal authority to tell him to get the fuck off my scene.

744

[quote]nrt wrote:
My two cents.

(1) Reading this thread has largely moved me to HG’s position. We don’t know what happened, and it’s entirely possible that Zimmerman was absolutely within his legal rights. A media firestorm is not a replacement for a trial.

(2) Imagine this scenario. There’s strong gun control in Florida. Zimmerman has no gun. Same situation, same (apparent) bad handling of it by Zimmerman. Worst case? Zimmerman gets badly beaten up, Martin either gets away with it or gets charged. VERY unlikely anybody dies, nobody’s life is destroyed.

Gun control, people.[/quote]

Trauma to the head is extremely dangerous… Your worst case scenario really isn’t the worst case there whatsoever.

No comment on the gun control thing from me per se, but I do think you are wrong to make this a case for gun control.

745

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Hell even as a firefighter, some cops treat us like shit. We had a house fire this past week where the cop (not a local) on scene was an absolute asshole to us (we saved the house by the way). I am awaiting the day one of the cops is an asshole to me while I’m an incident commander and I have the legal authority to tell him to get the fuck off my scene.[/quote]

Can you tell us more about what happened (I’m curious) or would that get you into trouble, potentially?

746

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]nrt wrote:
My two cents.

(1) Reading this thread has largely moved me to HG’s position. We don’t know what happened, and it’s entirely possible that Zimmerman was absolutely within his legal rights. A media firestorm is not a replacement for a trial.

(2) Imagine this scenario. There’s strong gun control in Florida. Zimmerman has no gun. Same situation, same (apparent) bad handling of it by Zimmerman. Worst case? Zimmerman gets badly beaten up, Martin either gets away with it or gets charged. VERY unlikely anybody dies, nobody’s life is destroyed.

Gun control, people.[/quote]

Trauma to the head is extremely dangerous… Your worst case scenario really isn’t the worst case there whatsoever.

No comment on the gun control thing from me per se, but I do think you are wrong to make this a case for gun control.

[/quote]

There is a pretty good chance that without a gun he never would have gotten out of the car though. Personally, I don’t think you should be able to conceal carry if your are a neighborhood watch, might temper your enthusiasm with a modicum of restraint.

I have to say that as much as it pains me to agree with anything HG says I am inclined to wait and see where the facts lead before passing judgment. With that said, there are a whole shitload of REPORTED facts being passed off as actual facts by both sides. All this bullshit quoted from blogs, newspapers and websites don’t mean shit until they are testimony.

747

“All this bullshit quoted from blogs, newspapers and websites don’t mean shit until they are testimony.”

Probably the best comment so far in this thread. But, most comically, even though this thread is 30 pages of arguing, everyone agrees on two things:

  1. If irretuable evidence (video footage, etc) comes forth backing up Zimmerman’s story, then Zimmerman should walk.

  2. If the opposite occurs, the Zimmerman should be convicted.

Most likely, neither will occur, but nonetheless it’s not realistic to speculate until more is known.

748

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]nrt wrote:
My two cents.

(1) Reading this thread has largely moved me to HG’s position. We don’t know what happened, and it’s entirely possible that Zimmerman was absolutely within his legal rights. A media firestorm is not a replacement for a trial.

(2) Imagine this scenario. There’s strong gun control in Florida. Zimmerman has no gun. Same situation, same (apparent) bad handling of it by Zimmerman. Worst case? Zimmerman gets badly beaten up, Martin either gets away with it or gets charged. VERY unlikely anybody dies, nobody’s life is destroyed.

Gun control, people.[/quote]

Trauma to the head is extremely dangerous… Your worst case scenario really isn’t the worst case there whatsoever.

No comment on the gun control thing from me per se, but I do think you are wrong to make this a case for gun control.

[/quote]

There is a pretty good chance that without a gun he never would have gotten out of the car though.
[/quote] That is conjecture… And we really don’t need even more conjecture in this, right? Not that I don’t get where you’re coming from… [quote]
Personally, I don’t think you should be able to conceal carry if your are a neighborhood watch, might temper your enthusiasm with a modicum of restraint.
[/quote] Mh… Then by what logic should regular people walking the streets be allowed to carry concealed? And how would open carry have helped here (I’ll forgive the ensuing conjecture of course, haha)

Indeed.

749

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]nrt wrote:

[quote]
There is a pretty good chance that without a gun he never would have gotten out of the car though.
That is conjecture… And we really don’t need even more conjecture in this, right? Not that I don’t get where you’re coming from… [/quote]

[quote]
Yes it is entirely conjecture, but from all appearances Zimmerman is a huge pussy. I just don’t think he would have had the courage to exit the car without the power he felt from having the gun. All purely my opinion though.[/quote]

Personally, I don’t think you should be able to conceal carry if your are a neighborhood watch, might temper your enthusiasm with a modicum of restraint.
Mh… Then by what logic should regular people walking the streets be allowed to carry concealed? And how would open carry have helped here (I’ll forgive the ensuing conjecture of course, haha)

750

Lead investigator WANTED to charge Zimmerman the night of the shooting:

751

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
The tricky part is it can be reasonably argued that both were.
[/quote]

It’s only “tricky.” If you don’t understand the law. It is irrelevant whether the Black guy’s acts were legally justified or not. All that matters is if the Hispanic guy’s actions are legally justified.[/quote]

Not the way I had it explained to me by a cop. If you hold a hair brush where the handle looks like a gun, the person who feels threatened is legally threatened whether or not the person is actually at risk. If Martin felt threatened, then following that logic, Zimmerman started the whole mess and his claim of self-defense does not hold water. I think it is this point that is being overlooked. It is not just who punched who first. It is who threatened first. Again, this is how a cop explained it to me.[/quote]

That was why I mentioned if the gun was visible. People seem uninterested in this important fact. All of the actions committed on both parts make sense if that gun was seen as a threat in itself first.
[/quote]

It does not even have to get that far. It has been argued that you can legally follow a pedestrian while in a car. Try following some kids home from school that way, or female college students around campus, and see how long it takes for the cops to show up. I think that act falls under menacing and the kids, college students, etc. would not be considerd crazy for feeling threatened. Though less threatened than if you get out of the cat and start going after them when they try to run away.

Following someone in your car can easily be conceived as threatening. Getting out of the car to pursue someone ups the threat meter. Having a visible gun UPS it even more.

I do not understand how this is not seen as threatening behavior.[/quote]
Cops “showing up” or even making an arrest is not equal to guilt of a crime.

According to actual known evidence, Trayvon is the criminal. Not much else can be argued.[/quote]

I am saying it is seen as threatening and unusual. Maybe not criminal but I am talking about perceived threat. That does count in how a person is legally able to respond.

752

[quote]nrt wrote:
My two cents.

(1) Reading this thread has largely moved me to HG’s position. We don’t know what happened, and it’s entirely possible that Zimmerman was absolutely within his legal rights. A media firestorm is not a replacement for a trial.

(2) Imagine this scenario. There’s strong gun control in Florida. Zimmerman has no gun. Same situation, same (apparent) bad handling of it by Zimmerman. Worst case? Zimmerman gets badly beaten up, Martin either gets away with it or gets charged. VERY unlikely anybody dies, nobody’s life is destroyed.

Gun control, people.[/quote]

dude could have ended up with a brain injury or punctured lung too. If we are going into entirely hypothetical world, he could have also encountered an armed robbery and saved an innocent life and the 3 other people the criminal would have gone on to kill in his life.

You simply don’t know the final score of what would have happened.

Another perspective that I picked up on that I think may have been over looked is that the kid allegedly was putting his hand over killermans’ mouth during the struggle. Going through intense physical exertion combined with a massive amount of adrenaline and having your breathing restricted is one of the worst and scariest feelings you could imagine. logic and rationality do not enter into your reaction to that situation. Trained brave firefighters in controlled situations will lose all rationality control. Literally guys will start punching and kicking instructors who are trying to get their gear off so they can breath. You will chew your own hand off for a breath. ANYONE would pull a trigger to make it stop.

If that actually did happen, most people here probably don’t fully understand how horrible and powerful of a primal instinct something as simple as a hand over your mouth and or nose can cause.

753

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TheSouthpaw wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

When blacks have to worry about dying by the hands of those chosen to protect, it is NOTHING like worrying about getting shot by some random gang member.

The Police are a way bigger and more powerful “gang”.

But, of course, seeing as I said this…it will likely get brushed off as irrelevant despite the fact that I doubt most white people fear for their life if they get pulled over by a cop.[/quote]

White people are murdered WAY more often by Black people than Black people are murdered by cops. There is no denying that.

[/quote]

Once again, wouldn’t “getting murdered by cops” be a worse social experience been being murdered by a “criminal”?[/quote]
I am pretty sure the murdered person doesn’t give a fuck who killed them… you know, because they are dead! Quit acting the fool and recognize that if a white person acted half as bad about black people as you do about cops, we would never hear the end of what a vile racist they were. [/quote]

I used the word “social experience” for a reason…in an attempt to include what it does to society as a whole.

This was clearly lost on you…as it seems much comprehension is. You better stick to the insults.

Yes, losing faith and all trust in those chosen to protect is worse than fearing a criminal when it comes to society as a whole. But, of course you will argue against what I say no matter what.[/quote]

Aww, it’s so cute when you try to act smart. Face it, fool, you just said that being murdered by a cop is worse than being murdered by a banger. That is stupid…like sniffing paint stupid. Dead is dead, if you didn’t know, and so far the whole blacks killing whites versus cops killing blacks isn’t exactly going your way numbers wise.

You can blather on about social experience all you want but the families of the murdered person aren’t going to console themselves with “at least he wasn’t killed by a cop…” or some similar bullshit.

You’d be able to see that if you took a sec to pull your head out of your ass and drop the “I am black and a victim because a tiny portion of cops are racist assholes” gig. Face it, a tiny portion of every group in the world are assholes, your group included.

And I mean dentists, of course.

And before someone bothers to paint me into a corner without reading all my posts on this thread, I think:

  1. Zimmerman should have been arrested on the spot unless the police had evidence that we don’t know about yet that absolutely exonerates him, and
  2. Labeling any group by a stereotype based on a negative perception of a small portion of that group is absolutely moronic. In other words, racism is for idiots.
754

Well, every time new evidence comes out the more it looks like this Zimmerman guy will be off the hook (manslaugher at most, and that may be stretching it) and the more it looks like certain media organizations jumped on this story early without all the facts in order to push an agenda.

755

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TheSouthpaw wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

When blacks have to worry about dying by the hands of those chosen to protect, it is NOTHING like worrying about getting shot by some random gang member.

The Police are a way bigger and more powerful “gang”.

But, of course, seeing as I said this…it will likely get brushed off as irrelevant despite the fact that I doubt most white people fear for their life if they get pulled over by a cop.[/quote]

White people are murdered WAY more often by Black people than Black people are murdered by cops. There is no denying that.

[/quote]

Once again, wouldn’t “getting murdered by cops” be a worse social experience been being murdered by a “criminal”?[/quote]
I am pretty sure the murdered person doesn’t give a fuck who killed them… you know, because they are dead! Quit acting the fool and recognize that if a white person acted half as bad about black people as you do about cops, we would never hear the end of what a vile racist they were. [/quote]

I used the word “social experience” for a reason…in an attempt to include what it does to society as a whole.

This was clearly lost on you…as it seems much comprehension is. You better stick to the insults.

Yes, losing faith and all trust in those chosen to protect is worse than fearing a criminal when it comes to society as a whole. But, of course you will argue against what I say no matter what.[/quote]
If a few scattered cases of racially motivated police brutality legitimately shade the entire black populations view of police then by following your logic the more prevalent scenario of blacks killing whites justifies a “profiled” community view of blacks as aggressive, violent criminals; especially considering cases where gasoline is thrown on a random white and he is burned to death. And we’re talking modern times, not about a dead generation of adults in the 1920’s.

Like it or not, you are supporting “profiling”.[/quote]

No, you are wrong here. Distrusting an organization of people with a codified belief system with a given sworn code of conduct is nothing like attributing the acts of an individual to a race of people without those things.[/quote]
Except there is no codified system of routinely committing violence due to skin color within the organization, only rogue members of a population segment. The logic fits.

756

I’ve been neutral the whole time but this really pissed me off. People here really going to condone this shit?

757

[quote]QuadasarusFlex wrote:

I’ve been neutral the whole time but this really pissed me off. People here really going to condone this shit?[/quote]

Despicable… There are so many people (not just journalists) taking advantage of this case one way or another to further their agendas or just… For fun I guess… It’s turning my stomach.

758

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]overstand wrote:
If either of you had even read the article that thethirdruffian posted, you would realize that the current Secret Service director mentions that 400% figure and says that it is false.

But let’s just ignore that.[/quote]

Both the REMF and the Dwarf have a very selective filter and make errors in only ONE direction.

It’s actually amusing.[/quote]

I got the info from my source BEFORE you posted yours. With thousands of sources online, I gathered my info from what I thought was a recent article.

Sue me.
[/quote]
Makes sense although ultimately wrong.

759

[quote]anonym wrote:
Shit, X, if I thought fleeing from cops and then whipping out my wallet once they cornered me was an intelligent move, I’d be scared shitless of being pulled over, too.

Here’s a hint: when you see the flashing lights behind you, turn on your overhead light, get out your information, put the window down, pull over and keep your hands on top of the steering wheel as the officers approach.

I only say this because you clearly have a different definition of what constitutes intelligent civilian-to-LEO interactions. I’d hate for you to be a victim of your own stereotyping because you’re too oblivious act rationally.[/quote]

760

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TheSouthpaw wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

When blacks have to worry about dying by the hands of those chosen to protect, it is NOTHING like worrying about getting shot by some random gang member.

The Police are a way bigger and more powerful “gang”.

But, of course, seeing as I said this…it will likely get brushed off as irrelevant despite the fact that I doubt most white people fear for their life if they get pulled over by a cop.[/quote]

White people are murdered WAY more often by Black people than Black people are murdered by cops. There is no denying that.

[/quote]

Once again, wouldn’t “getting murdered by cops” be a worse social experience been being murdered by a “criminal”?[/quote]
I am pretty sure the murdered person doesn’t give a fuck who killed them… you know, because they are dead! Quit acting the fool and recognize that if a white person acted half as bad about black people as you do about cops, we would never hear the end of what a vile racist they were. [/quote]

I used the word “social experience” for a reason…in an attempt to include what it does to society as a whole.

This was clearly lost on you…as it seems much comprehension is. You better stick to the insults.

Yes, losing faith and all trust in those chosen to protect is worse than fearing a criminal when it comes to society as a whole. But, of course you will argue against what I say no matter what.[/quote]
If a few scattered cases of racially motivated police brutality legitimately shade the entire black populations view of police then by following your logic the more prevalent scenario of blacks killing whites justifies a “profiled” community view of blacks as aggressive, violent criminals; especially considering cases where gasoline is thrown on a random white and he is burned to death. And we’re talking modern times, not about a dead generation of adults in the 1920’s.

Like it or not, you are supporting “profiling”.[/quote]

No, you are wrong here. Distrusting an organization of people with a codified belief system with a given sworn code of conduct is nothing like attributing the acts of an individual to a race of people without those things.[/quote]
Except there is no codified system of routinely committing violence due to skin color within the organization, only rogue members of a population segment. The logic fits.[/quote]

that’s certainly debatable.

An organization that has voluntary membership and has specific factual commonalities can have fully rational inferences made.