So what’s the problem with the relay race analogy? no answer for that? I changed it just for you…
[/quote]
You called the guy a racist again; that he would happily shackle another person because of race. Thought I’d let you slide on it, because white sanctimonious racists like you are simply hard to argue with.
How do you argue with a white racist lib who is convinced that all white people would happily shackle black people? Hey, doesn’t that mean you’d do it do, assuming you’re white?
The rest of what you say seems to have been absorbed in some college class taught by a pinko whack job.
[quote]valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what you’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.[/quote]
I think a couple of us believe that issues like this do more harm than racism today.
[quote]valiance. wrote:
Alffi wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Kinoz wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Black anti-intellectualism is largely the fruit of WHITE efforts to keep blacks uneducated and powerless.
Of course any attempt to reverse systemic racism is whined about as “reverse racism”.
I feel that reverse racism is a very real issue. And before you take my head clean off for being a racist, I offer nothing but personal experience in evidence.
First off: I have nothing against anybody’s race, or culture. Some of my best friends are black. I hung out with hispanics, my school’s full of asians… etc.
But when I came to this country (Canada) I had NEVER MET A BLACK PERSON before. Ever. Not one. Mindfuck! I came without any sort of preconceived notions, too - the way I saw it, the way I was raised, everybody was equal. Work hard, don’t be a dick, and we’re all friends.
However, I quickly learned several important facts:
I was White. This was reproachable.
I was directly responsible for all of the hardships in the black community.
I should apologize, grovel, or at the very least feel really bad about my own destructive culture, and being a slave-driver.
Uh… What the hell? I’ve never had a hand in any of this. Neither did my ancestors - fuck, we weren’t even on the same landmass! But that fact didn’t interest most of the black people I encountered - and again, I speak exclusively from personal experience, and the two hundred or so black people I’ve formally “met” in elementary, high school, college, the workplace, and the general living environment across Toronto and Ottawa, and their surrounding towns and areas.
My past didn’t matter. I was Whitey. Honkey. Still am. I stood, shocked and confused, while black people swore at me, threw eggs at me, pushed me around, and reminded me at every turn that they were better, faster, stronger, didn’t have to work and that book-learnin’ was gay, and that they would take all the white bitches.
And all of that was OK. Because see, the fact that sunburn shows on me makes calling me a cracker all right. It’s totally not offensive that people pre-judged me based on the colour of my skin.
Who said this was OK? You tried complaining to your school/the cops/local government/whoever and they said fuck off? Cause it’s definitely not OK. I’m sorry you had to associate with the dregs of black society, people steeped in the ghetto culture of failure.
Kinoz wrote:
I’ve been passed up for a job in favour of a black kid. I found it fishy and decided to get to the truth. Turns out the guy was way, way less qualified than I was… but in order to show Diversity, they had to hire him. So fuck qualifications - they would rather fill a certain colour quota.
What was fishy about it? That a black person could have higher qualifications than you? Every time you’re passed up for something do you assume it’s fishy? These questions aside, the black kid less qualified than you likely also ran into a lot more hardship than you, simply because of his race. I’ve links on previous pages if you’re curious. But there’s no denying that what happened to you sucks.
The problem is if you increase the percentages of blacks in any institution, you’re by necessity decreasing the percentages of other races. It’s a zero sum game; someone has to lose out. In this case that was you.
Here’s why black people need affirmative action: picture racial achievement as a footrace between two runners, one representing black people, and one representing whites. Before the race starts the white runner shackles the black runner with chains and huge weights. Halfway through the race, now that he’s a few hundred meters ahead, the white runner throws the key to the shackles back to the black runner. The black runner takes off his chains, but he’s still a few hundred meters behind. How do you propose we close that gap? Unless we tilt the field artificially in favor of blacks (in order to bring things back to equality) there will always be that hundred meter gap. In real terms this hundred meter gap is represented by everything from higher levels of white wealth, to black cultural practices that abhor education (a direct result of white efforts to foster anti-intellectualism in their black slaves), to the remaining discrimination that faces blacks today. All affirmative action is doing is stopping the clock while the black runner catches up to his white counterpart.
Kinoz wrote:
My university has not only scholarships, but a number of spots, reserved exclusively for blacks. I suppose this is all done to encourage people to break negative patterns that years of racial discrimination created… but I think that only encourages a lack of work ethic and a sense of privilege. And denies admission to a number of people who worked their ass off simply based on their lack of specific skin colour.
How do you propose we close the white-black achievement gap without preferentially helping blacks? If you shoot a guy in the foot, taking out the bullet isn’t unfair preferentially treatment; it’s redress for past wrongs.
Kinoz wrote:
In some areas, perhaps, being black today is a problem. Around here, being black is a huge boon. Financial assistance, education, preference in hiring, preference in citizenship (when my own father, who owns property, legally works, and sent two kids to university here didn’t get it)… My, that does sound awful! And best of all, everybody keeps apologizing and being very careful about what they say, whereas you can shoot your mouth off. And any hardships or setbacks? Well, don’t worry about it too much, it’s cause you’re black.
Again I can’t speak directly to the Canadian experience. I’m unsure why your racial policies would so closely reflect those of the US which has had a far more fractious history of racial interaction.
I know in the US overall being black today IS a problem. I bet not one of you motherfuckers crying about affirmative action today would want to black. It comes with all sorts of baggage you don’t want. Here’s a random example: A Girl Like Me - YouTube shit aint changed since 1940 as far as black peoples perceptions of themselves. You would NOT have the same level of self confidence in your ability to achieve if you were constantly bombarded with images of people like you failing or not even being given a shot. Culture matters, and black culture is fucked up, again largely–or at least partially–as a result of white oppression.
Kinoz wrote:
This by no means applies to all people of colour. But I’ve come to believe that it IS representative, at least in this province, of their general position and mindset. They’re better, and the world owes them stuff. What about me? 300 years of Mongolian occupation, the Crusades, wars with the Poles, the Swedes, Napoleon’s invasion, two world wars… When’s it going to be my turn? How come nobody owes me anything?
WWII ended in 1945, segregation in the US ended in 1965, that’s 2 decades later. Additionally your people weren’t enslaved for generations and purposefully oppressed and disenfranchised in a country you didn’t even choose to come to. You are voluntary immigrants, black Americans–by and large–are not. How could the US not owe some redress to a people it systematically oppressed over centuries?
The problem of redress for non-black oppressed folk the world over also becomes logistically problematic (though I support it in principle). Half the time the fuckers who didn’t aren’t in power anymore, or the country’s borders have been redrawn, the country’s been renamed, the act of oppression was years ago, whatever. The difference is with black Americans we know exactly who did it and the motherfucker is right in front of us. It’s the US government who did it, with the tacit acceptance of a majority of white folk. How is it unreasonable to expect their descendants to pay for the unearned advantages that their ancestors’ racism bequeathed them and that they still enjoy to this day?
Should american blacks pay for the disproportionate crime rate (how come blacks are killing even so many other blacks?),
They do. In fact blacks are imprisoned far out of proportion to their actual criminality and sentencing is harsher.
Alffi wrote:
welfare costs and affirmative action programs that whites have been tolerating?
Blacks are disproportionately poor, so they suck up more welfare per capita. Why are blacks disproportionately poor? 97% of American blacks are the descendants of slaves. This means that for generations they had no opportunity to build wealth like people in other groups. Their opportunities were severely limited until 1965, and discrimination continues to this day.
I don’t deny there are problems in the black community. But not all of them are self-inflicted. Much of the black community’s problems are due to external molding by US culture at large.
Affirmative action is merely an attempt to reverse all the wrongs perpetrated against blacks for hundreds of years. i.e. almost all our nation’s history
Alffi wrote:
As far as today goes, slavery was like a divine gift for the blacks of today because it allowed them to be born in one of the best nations in the world,while so much of the remaining black population resides in Africa being enslaved by other blacks,living in and possibly on mud,with the average IQ in african nations being borderline retarded at best,for some reason.
You’re an idiot.
[/quote]
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes.
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes. [/quote]
So what’s the problem with the relay race analogy? no answer for that? I changed it just for you…
You called the guy a racist again; that he would happily shackle another person because of race. Thought I’d let you slide on it, because white sanctimonious racists like you are simply hard to argue with.
How do you argue with a white racist lib who is convinced that all white people would happily shackle black people? Hey, doesn’t that mean you’d do it do, assuming you’re white?
The rest of what you say seems to have been absorbed in some college class taught by a pinko whack job.
[/quote]
I changed the analogy so as to not call him a racist. You were right that my initial analogy wasn’t as good as it could have been. Now what’s wrong with it? As the second member of the relay team he has nothing to do with what the first guy did, but he still benefits from it. I’m not suggesting he would happily shackle black people.
Maybe you present some facts to bolster your case? Alffi had no problem doing that when he presented the numbers of interracial rapes. Why don’t you do the same?
Never taken a college class in anything remotely related to this stuff.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what you’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.
I think a couple of us believe that today, issues like this do more harm than racism. Seem to me that racism should be down towards bottom of the list.[/quote]
OK that’s a fair point.
I don’t know the causes of black illegitimacy, but I doubt it has anything to do with racism.
[quote]Alffi wrote:
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes. [/quote]
I don’t know, but whatever we’re doing isn’t working. We’ve had AA and other race based quotas since the 60s, believing that they could be removed once blacks were helped. The current data regarding criminality, poverty, and illegitimacy amongst the black community suggest that such policies have failed, miserably.
On top of all that, we have a black president, and African blacks are voluntarily moving here themselves to live in this country.
Blaming whites for the inequalities existing between blacks and whites today is simply inexcusable. It’s a libel poured onto whites for the behavior and characteristics of the black community. You simply can’t expect equal outcomes for distinct races/ethnic groups in the United States. No amount of social engineering will change that fact. Every bit of social science data coming out puts Asians ahead in almost all categories, whites in the middle, followed by the hispanics and blacks.
Blacks, Asians, hispanics, and whites in the United States have different genetics and different cultures. You can’t expect equal outcomes from different genetics and different cultures. It’s not possible and defies common sense.
Have any of you ever heard of the brown eye/ blue eye experiment? It’s been a while since I’ve seen the footage, but the short version goes like this:
A 3rd grade teacher in Iowa split her class between blue eyed children and brown eyed children. On alternating days over the course of one week, each group was the “second class” or inferior group. Things like recess and drinking fountain privileges were curtailed, and the intellectual, cultural, and social qualities of the inferior group were criticized throughout the day – all on the basis of eye color.
The teacher tested her students 2 weeks before, multiple times during, and two weeks after the experiment. What’s interesting is that whenever one group was “inferior” in status, test scores dropped dramatically; test scores rebounded as soon as that status was reversed. Nothing else changed, not the questions asked or the way in which they were asked, just the status of the children being tested.
I’m not sure what kind of conclusions we can draw from that, but I think it’s interesting that the way the student perceived their status seems to have effected their performance. Anyways… food for thought
[quote]Chushin wrote:
valiance. wrote:
As the second member of the relay team he has nothing to do with what the first guy did, but he still benefits from it.
Hey V. I’m generally with you in this discussion, but a couple of questions:
3 of 4 of my grandparents arrived in the US illiterate and unable to speak English. Clearly they started out “shackled” and way behind in the race. My parents were discriminated against by society at large for being “hunky” (ie, eastern European, non English speaker, “funny” name, etc.) before that became “honky” = white. One uncle even changed his name so he could “pass.” Should I have been given some preferential treatment?
How much of, and what parts of, blacks’ current situation DO you feel can be layed at the feet of black people themselves.
Here’s hoping you see these as the honest questions they are… [/quote]
Hey glad to know someone’s appreciating my posts and I appreciate the honest questions.
I think the difference here is primarily that of volition. Your grandparents, for all their disadvantages, were voluntary immigrants. Similarly, most of the voluntary black immigrants to the US do quite well for themselves–though immigrants are such a self-selected population we have to be careful. But as a whole, the 97% of African Americans who are the descendants of slaves are doing rather poorly, some would argue things are as bad or worse than they were in 1965. What’s the difference between African immigrants and your grandparents on one end and American blacks on the other? Slavery and its legacy, plain and simple. Or to put another way: voluntary immigration vs. being dragged here in chains.
But you ask a good question, and if properly framed I wouldn’t be against preferential treatment for any group that can prove it needs–and deserves-- it.
Here’s another question: do you need preferential treatment? Are your people still suffering from disadvantages inflicted upon them by past–or current–discrimination?
I think a lot of black people’s social problems are their fault. I don’t see how the blame for high rates of black illegitimacy, for example, are anything but the fault of the people having the kids out of wedlock–i.e. black people. Having children out of wedlock isn’t a bad thing ipso facto (see Scandinavia) but in the US it highly correlates with parents separating (i.e. families dissolving) and that is a very bad thing for everyone. But then again I don’t understand the illegitimacy issue at all–so I could be completely off base on this.
I’m not entirely happy with these answers but its late and perhaps I’ll have a better grip in the morning.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
How do you propose we close the white-black achievement gap without preferentially helping blacks? If you shoot a guy in the foot, taking out the bullet isn’t unfair preferentially treatment; it’s redress for past wrongs.
I don’t know, but whatever we’re doing isn’t working. We’ve had AA and other race based quotas since the 60s, believing that they could be removed once blacks were helped. The current data regarding criminality, poverty, and illegitimacy amongst the black community suggest that such policies have failed, miserably.
On top of all that, we have a black president, and African blacks are voluntarily moving here themselves to live in this country.
Blaming whites for the inequalities existing between blacks and whites today is simply inexcusable. It’s a libel poured onto whites for the behavior and characteristics of the black community. You simply can’t expect equal outcomes for distinct races/ethnic groups in the United States. No amount of social engineering will change that fact. Every bit of social science data coming out puts Asians ahead in almost all categories, whites in the middle, followed by the hispanics and blacks.
Blacks, Asians, hispanics, and whites in the United States have different genetics and different cultures. You can’t expect equal outcomes from different genetics and different cultures. It’s not possible and defies common sense. [/quote]
I’m too tired to search for data tonight but I’m not sure all the indicators are as dire as you make them out to be. But even if they are that’s not my main point.
Here’s the main point:
Cultures are mutable; and their change can be guided and directed. I doubt that genetics has a meaningful role to play here, given the success of the aforementioned African/Caribbean blacks and the variability of black outcomes in the US throughout history.
[quote]IvanDmitritch wrote:
Have any of you ever heard of the brown eye/ blue eye experiment? It’s been a while since I’ve seen the footage, but the short version goes like this:
A 3rd grade teacher in Iowa split her class between blue eyed children and brown eyed children. On alternating days over the course of one week, each group was the “second class” or inferior group. Things like recess and drinking fountain privileges were curtailed, and the intellectual, cultural, and social qualities of the inferior group were criticized throughout the day – all on the basis of eye color.
The teacher tested her students 2 weeks before, multiple times during, and two weeks after the experiment. What’s interesting is that whenever one group was “inferior” in status, test scores dropped dramatically; test scores rebounded as soon as that status was reversed. Nothing else changed, not the questions asked or the way in which they were asked, just the status of the children being tested.
I’m not sure what kind of conclusions we can draw from that, but I think it’s interesting that the way the student perceived their status seems to have effected their performance. Anyways… food for thought
[/quote]
This is possibly related to stereotype threat. I’d heard of this experiment but hadn’t made the mental connection. Good post.
[quote]IvanDmitritch wrote:
Have any of you ever heard of the brown eye/ blue eye experiment? It’s been a while since I’ve seen the footage, but the short version goes like this:
A 3rd grade teacher in Iowa split her class between blue eyed children and brown eyed children. On alternating days over the course of one week, each group was the “second class” or inferior group. Things like recess and drinking fountain privileges were curtailed, and the intellectual, cultural, and social qualities of the inferior group were criticized throughout the day – all on the basis of eye color.
The teacher tested her students 2 weeks before, multiple times during, and two weeks after the experiment. What’s interesting is that whenever one group was “inferior” in status, test scores dropped dramatically; test scores rebounded as soon as that status was reversed. Nothing else changed, not the questions asked or the way in which they were asked, just the status of the children being tested.
I’m not sure what kind of conclusions we can draw from that, but I think it’s interesting that the way the student perceived their status seems to have effected their performance. Anyways… food for thought
[/quote]
The problem with that analogy is that most black school children attend schools where most or all of their classmates are of the same color.
In my 29 years of teaching, I have found that black girls earn higher grades from me, slightly more than their white counterparts. The reverse holds for males. I teach math so that may have something to do with it too.
BTW: One of my best students ever (a young black man) got a full ride to Stanford. He’s now progressing toward his Phd and is far smarter than I am — so, it can be done. He is a good example of what potential exists in all of us.
[quote]Here’s the main point:
Cultures are mutable; and their change can be guided and directed. I doubt that genetics has a meaningful role to play here, given the success of the aforementioned African/Caribbean blacks and the variability of black outcomes in the US throughout history.
[/quote]
Oh, I overwhelmingly agree. I do believe there are racial IQ differences, but I don’t believe they are significant enough to retard progress for any group. We’re arguing, however, over the methods by which cultural change ought to be induced. I think every culture ought to introspect and fix their own problems. Everyone needs to stop blaming everyone else. The way government can encourage this is to treat everyone equally. I find the idea that “some are more equal than others” Orwellian. I don’t see it bringing about a “more perfect union.”
So what’s the problem with the relay race analogy? no answer for that? I changed it just for you…
You called the guy a racist again; that he would happily shackle another person because of race. Thought I’d let you slide on it, because white sanctimonious racists like you are simply hard to argue with.
How do you argue with a white racist lib who is convinced that all white people would happily shackle black people? Hey, doesn’t that mean you’d do it do, assuming you’re white?
The rest of what you say seems to have been absorbed in some college class taught by a pinko whack job.
I changed the analogy so as to not call him a racist. You were right that my initial analogy wasn’t as good as it could have been. Now what’s wrong with it? As the second member of the relay team he has nothing to do with what the first guy did, but he still benefits from it. I’m not suggesting he would happily shackle black people.
Maybe you present some facts to bolster your case? Alffi had no problem doing that when he presented the numbers of interracial rapes. Why don’t you do the same?
Never taken a college class in anything remotely related to this stuff.
Sloth wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what you’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.
I think a couple of us believe that today, issues like this do more harm than racism. Seem to me that racism should be down towards bottom of the list.
OK that’s a fair point.
I don’t know the causes of black illegitimacy, but I doubt it has anything to do with racism.
Alffi wrote:
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes.
[/quote]
Huh? I specifically said “countries other than the USA” such as mine and you’re talking about the USA (which has already been shown in this thread is saturated with black crime) and your links do not even talk about crime. But it’s allright,mate. Just don’t respond to this with any more irrelevance I would have to scan through.
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes.
Fact is he’s correct.You are an idiot.[/quote]
You tell me to stick to the affairs of my country and when I try to bolster my argument by doing just that (FIN is one of those countries I’m talking about),then you try to shut me up like this. Statistically speaking,I’m less likely to be an idiot than you since south africans average borderline retarded (which is still a good score for an african nation).
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes.
Fact is he’s correct.You are an idiot.
You tell me to stick to the affairs of my country and when I try to bolster my argument by doing just that (FIN is one of those countries I’m talking about),then you try to shut me up like this. Statistically speaking,I’m less likely to be an idiot than you since south africans average borderline retarded (which is still a good score for an african nation).[/quote]
Since I’m a Spaniard living in South Africa at the moment,you have no argument statistically about anything.What is assured is that I have more hands on experience than you do on the subject.The only thing we have to judge you on is what you write here,which so far has been a barrage of stupidity.
So while you continue to write like an idiot,I will keep on calling you an idiot.
How old are you?This may have something to do with your lack of understanding on the subject matter,and would incline me to cut you a little slack.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
IvanDmitritch wrote:
Have any of you ever heard of the brown eye/ blue eye experiment? It’s been a while since I’ve seen the footage, but the short version goes like this:
A 3rd grade teacher in Iowa split her class between blue eyed children and brown eyed children. On alternating days over the course of one week, each group was the “second class” or inferior group. Things like recess and drinking fountain privileges were curtailed, and the intellectual, cultural, and social qualities of the inferior group were criticized throughout the day – all on the basis of eye color.
The teacher tested her students 2 weeks before, multiple times during, and two weeks after the experiment. What’s interesting is that whenever one group was “inferior” in status, test scores dropped dramatically; test scores rebounded as soon as that status was reversed. Nothing else changed, not the questions asked or the way in which they were asked, just the status of the children being tested.
I’m not sure what kind of conclusions we can draw from that, but I think it’s interesting that the way the student perceived their status seems to have effected their performance. Anyways… food for thought
The problem with that analogy is that most black school children attend schools where most or all of their classmates are of the same color.
In my 29 years of teaching, I have found that black girls earn higher grades from me, slightly more than their white counterparts. The reverse holds for males. I teach math so that may have something to do with it too.
BTW: One of my best students ever (a young black man) got a full ride to Stanford. He’s now progressing toward his Phd and is far smarter than I am — so, it can be done. He is a good example of what potential exists in all of us.
[/quote]
I was using the analogy more as it applies to society as a whole. Black children, even those who attend all black schools, are still part of a society in which they (or their parents or grandparents) are second class citizens. Now, obviously, things are much, much better – I don’t really think any rational person would argue otherwise.
But just what types of long lasting effects entrenched bigotry and discrimination have on a group of people I think ought to be taken in to consideration. Just because racism isn’t institutional or as widespread as it once was, doesn’t mean its effects aren’t still reverberating. And if modern “black culture” is to blame, and I think that argument has legs, well then we’ve got to ask: what environment produced that culture? Blacks from Africa don’t share it; blacks at the end of the Civil War didn’t share it. Perhaps, the failure of Reconstruction and the following hundred years of, for lack of a better term, being shit on have something to do with it? It’s amazing what multi-generational anger can do to a person – especially males.
I’m just trying to say that things aren’t so black and white (no pun intended).
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes.
Fact is he’s correct.You are an idiot.
You tell me to stick to the affairs of my country and when I try to bolster my argument by doing just that (FIN is one of those countries I’m talking about),then you try to shut me up like this. Statistically speaking,I’m less likely to be an idiot than you since south africans average borderline retarded (which is still a good score for an african nation).
Since I’m a Spaniard living in South Africa at the moment,you have no argument statistically about anything.What is assured is that I have more hands on experience than you do on the subject.The only thing we have to judge you on is what you write here,which so far has been a barrage of stupidity.
So while you continue to write like an idiot,I will keep on calling you an idiot.
How old are you?This may have something to do with your lack of understanding on the subject matter,and would incline me to cut you a little slack.
[/quote]
I’m not accountable to you and I’m not going to let this thread be derailed by ad hominems rather than discussing arguments about facts. I decided to play along with you for one round because it was so tempting to do.
You can’t refute jack of what I’ve been writing so you would rather call me an idiot. And so I will be done with you. You seem to be saying that since I’m not there (and I wonder why you are not in Spain) then I cannot make judgement. Well,that’s like saying that I should not be saying that there are elephants,apes and lions in Africa since I have not checked it out in person.
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes.
Fact is he’s correct.You are an idiot.
You tell me to stick to the affairs of my country and when I try to bolster my argument by doing just that (FIN is one of those countries I’m talking about),then you try to shut me up like this. Statistically speaking,I’m less likely to be an idiot than you since south africans average borderline retarded (which is still a good score for an african nation).
Since I’m a Spaniard living in South Africa at the moment,you have no argument statistically about anything.What is assured is that I have more hands on experience than you do on the subject.The only thing we have to judge you on is what you write here,which so far has been a barrage of stupidity.
So while you continue to write like an idiot,I will keep on calling you an idiot.
How old are you?This may have something to do with your lack of understanding on the subject matter,and would incline me to cut you a little slack.
I’m not accountable to you and I’m not going to let this thread be derailed by ad hominems rather than discussing arguments about facts. I decided to play along with you for one round because it was so tempting to do.
You can’t refute jack of what I’ve been writing so you would rather call me an idiot. And so I will be done with you. You seem to be saying that since I’m not there (and I wonder why you are not in Spain) then I cannot make judgement. Well,that’s like saying that I should not be saying that there are elephants,apes and lions in Africa since I have not checked it out in person. [/quote]
Yup,you sure are some kind of expert on the subject.Just because I don’t take the time to refute your ‘facts’ don’t be mistaking that for inability to do so.In your particular case you are so off the reservation that yes,I would much rather call you what you are than waste my time trying to change your mind.I’m not here to educate you.
So carry on.And I’ll carry on however the fuck I see fit to carry on.
[quote]valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what you’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.[/quote]
The, THE, THEEEE most destructive issue confronting black people (and white people to a lesser degree) for the last 30 - 40 years is the disappearance of a stable intact family consisting of one faithful, responsible man and one faithful, responsible woman bound in the commitment of a traditional marriage. BAR NONE… period.
You can talk at me for 50 years and never make a dent in my believing that. People can confront, survive and overcome ANYTHING when they have each other and the diametric opposite is true if they don’t. Sending support money and visitations are next to worthless in this regard. It is the very presence of marriage and loving parenthood and all the selfless character that that entails and displays as an example that are key.
Liberal policies have not only tacitly tolerated, but outright facilitated and fueled the erosion of the nuclear family. It is no accident that it affects blacks more because blacks as a demographic have a much higher percentage of their specimens enslaved as government step children for all the reasons I’ve stated 100 times already.
I do not despise liberalism because it seems like a neato attitude to have. I view it as consummate evil because it leaves a path of deceptive self perpetuating human misery in it’s wake.
You seem like a good guy and a smart guy actually, but the main thrust of everything you have posted here is a recipe for more and more and more of every single thing that is rotting this society from the inside out. I have not settled on a reason, there’s probably more than one, why people like you cannot seem to fit this inside your head.
[quote]IvanDmitritch wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
IvanDmitritch wrote:
Have any of you ever heard of the brown eye/ blue eye experiment? It’s been a while since I’ve seen the footage, but the short version goes like this:
A 3rd grade teacher in Iowa split her class between blue eyed children and brown eyed children. On alternating days over the course of one week, each group was the “second class” or inferior group. Things like recess and drinking fountain privileges were curtailed, and the intellectual, cultural, and social qualities of the inferior group were criticized throughout the day – all on the basis of eye color.
The teacher tested her students 2 weeks before, multiple times during, and two weeks after the experiment. What’s interesting is that whenever one group was “inferior” in status, test scores dropped dramatically; test scores rebounded as soon as that status was reversed. Nothing else changed, not the questions asked or the way in which they were asked, just the status of the children being tested.
I’m not sure what kind of conclusions we can draw from that, but I think it’s interesting that the way the student perceived their status seems to have effected their performance. Anyways… food for thought
The problem with that analogy is that most black school children attend schools where most or all of their classmates are of the same color.
In my 29 years of teaching, I have found that black girls earn higher grades from me, slightly more than their white counterparts. The reverse holds for males. I teach math so that may have something to do with it too.
BTW: One of my best students ever (a young black man) got a full ride to Stanford. He’s now progressing toward his Phd and is far smarter than I am — so, it can be done. He is a good example of what potential exists in all of us.
I was using the analogy more as it applies to society as a whole. Black children, even those who attend all black schools, are still part of a society in which they (or their parents or grandparents) are second class citizens. Now, obviously, things are much, much better – I don’t really think any rational person would argue otherwise.
But just what types of long lasting effects entrenched bigotry and discrimination have on a group of people I think ought to be taken in to consideration. Just because racism isn’t institutional or as widespread as it once was, doesn’t mean its effects aren’t still reverberating. And if modern “black culture” is to blame, and I think that argument has legs, well then we’ve got to ask: what environment produced that culture? Blacks from Africa don’t share it; blacks at the end of the Civil War didn’t share it. Perhaps, the failure of Reconstruction and the following hundred years of, for lack of a better term, being shit on have something to do with it? It’s amazing what multi-generational anger can do to a person – especially males.
I’m just trying to say that things aren’t so black and white (no pun intended).
[/quote]
So what’s the problem with the relay race analogy? no answer for that? I changed it just for you…
You called the guy a racist again; that he would happily shackle another person because of race. Thought I’d let you slide on it, because white sanctimonious racists like you are simply hard to argue with.
How do you argue with a white racist lib who is convinced that all white people would happily shackle black people? Hey, doesn’t that mean you’d do it do, assuming you’re white?
The rest of what you say seems to have been absorbed in some college class taught by a pinko whack job.
I changed the analogy so as to not call him a racist. You were right that my initial analogy wasn’t as good as it could have been. Now what’s wrong with it? As the second member of the relay team he has nothing to do with what the first guy did, but he still benefits from it. I’m not suggesting he would happily shackle black people.
Maybe you present some facts to bolster your case? Alffi had no problem doing that when he presented the numbers of interracial rapes. Why don’t you do the same?
Never taken a college class in anything remotely related to this stuff.
Sloth wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what you’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.
I think a couple of us believe that today, issues like this do more harm than racism. Seem to me that racism should be down towards bottom of the list.
OK that’s a fair point.
I don’t know the causes of black illegitimacy, but I doubt it has anything to do with racism.
Alffi wrote:
Fact is black refugees coming to western countries other than the USA exhibit the same worrying behavior as american blacks. Since they’re coming from Africa,they cannot possibly be slaves like what you’re talking about. Once in,they will not return unless extradited for crimes.
Huh? I specifically said “countries other than the USA” such as mine and you’re talking about the USA (which has already been shown in this thread is saturated with black crime) and your links do not even talk about crime. But it’s allright,mate. Just don’t respond to this with any more irrelevance I would have to scan through.
[/quote]
My mistake, sorry.
The statistics still say something interesting about the roots of the problems though. Taken altogether we have African immigrants in the US with a record of success, but when those same people immigrate to non-US countries they display the cultural failures of African-Americans.
If you’re specifically talking about black refugees (not all black immigrants), I think you’d expect them to have problems.
Though slavery didn’t affect Africa in the same way it did the US, the shadow of colonialism hangs over all formerly colonized nations to a greater or lesser degreee. The blue/brown eye concept applies here, as well.
We can also pause here and take a second to look at what the US has done right. Because of the vast significance race has played in our history, we were forced to confront it with a civil rights movement. There was no similar movement in many european countries, and racism in many places in Europe is still virulent to this day.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what yoau’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.
The, THE, THEEEE most destructive issue confronting black people (and white people to a lesser degree) for the last 30 - 40 years is the disappearance of a stable intact family consisting of one faithful, responsible man and one faithful, responsible woman bound in the commitment of a traditional marriage. BAR NONE… period.
You can talk at me for 50 years and never make a dent in my believing that. People can confront, survive and overcome ANYTHING when they have each other and the diametric opposite is true if they don’t. Sending support money and visitations are next to worthless in this regard. It is the very presence of marriage and loving parenthood and all the selfless character that that entails and displays as an example that are key.
Liberal policies have not only tacitly tolerated, but outright facilitated and fueled the erosion of the nuclear family. It is no accident that it affects blacks more because blacks as a demographic have a much higher percentage of their specimens enslaved as government step children for all the reasons I’ve stated 100 times already.
I do not despise liberalism because it seems like a neato attitude to have. I view it as consummate evil because it leaves a path of deceptive self perpetuating human misery in it’s wake.
You seem like a good guy and a smart guy actually, but the main thrust of everything you have posted here is a recipe for more and more and more of every single thing that is rotting this society from the inside out. I have not settled on a reason, there’s probably more than one, why people like you cannot seem to fit this inside your head.
[/quote]
Well, good post. Sometimes we need to actually articulate our views so we don’t end up arguing with others strawmen. Seeing it all laid out like that is very different from seeing pieces of the arguments scattered throughout your posts.
Honestly the problem of the erosion of the black family is not one I know much about, have thought about, or can even discuss. Part of the reason this concept could not have ever fit in my head is it never even crossed my mind. It probably just comes down to different values/perspectives. Liberals (I almost spelled it Lieberals lol) just don’t think about this stuff, at least in my experience. Maybe someone here has some good leftist counterarguments but I don’t. I think you hit the nail on the head, actually; but its not a nail I saw sticking up at all. I came in here so busily pointing out the factual holes in other people’s arguments I missed the log in my eye.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Hey glad to know someone’s appreciating my posts and I appreciate the honest questions.
The feeling is mutual. Finding someone who’s willing to discuss reasonably rather than enjoy hating is rare here.
I think the difference here is primarily that of volition. Your grandparents, for all their disadvantages, were voluntary immigrants.
I kind of thought that’s what you’d say; it’s what I would have said!
Here’s another question: do you need preferential treatment? Are your people still suffering from disadvantages inflicted upon them by past–or current–discrimination?
THAT is a question that allows for some really interesting answers. I, personally, have done quite well for myself, but it was pretty much in spite of “disadvantages inflicted upon me.” (Read “I studied fanatically.”)
As for “my people,” if they are defined as “the former hunkies,” it’s hard to say. I have no stats to back it up, but my personal experience is that levels of alcoholism, suicide, mental illness, etc, are higher than in the population at large. But how do we know if this is a legacy of being discriminated against, or something else?
In any case, as I’ve said, I mostly agree with what you’ve expressed, but it is also my sense that a large segment of the black population could benefit from some of the mindset I was taught: “Yeah, they’re treating you unfairly. So you can bitch and moan about it, or you can work harder to get what you want.” Of course, as you say, that’s easier without the legacy of slavery pulling at you…
I think a lot of black people’s social problems are their fault. I don’t see how the blame for high rates of black illegitimacy, for example, are anything but the fault of the people having the kids out of wedlock–i.e. black people.
My understanding is that families were often separated during slavery. A residual effect? A simple reflection of the difficulty of black men finding work to support families?
[/quote]
Good post.
re: familial breakdowns. I’m sure slavery didn’t help, but I think Africa has always had a different social/familial structure than the West–at least the modern West. Furthermore I think rates of familial dissolution have increased since 1965 (illegitimacy, divorce etc.)
I think theres some merit to the argument that the movements of the 60s have promoted the collapse of traditional families. I’d want to look at the changes in European family structure–as they are far more socialist than the US by and large; so perhaps we can disaggregate welfare state from the equation. After all, there are many other changes going on here. I’d also like to see the difference between black and white outcomes on this matter to see why they might differ. But as I admitted earlier this is a topic I know little about.
Here’s where instead of providing statistics I’d like to see some. Noone is obligated to prove anything to me–when a man discovers he’s deficient in his knowledge of a topic he should go study–but perhaps if we want to continue the discussion in this area it’d be nice to all be coming from the same place. Otherwise I’ll have to bow out of the conversation on this particular topic. If you want to make a shot at convincing me I’m all ears (eyes?).
