[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what you’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.
The, THE, THEEEE most destructive issue confronting black people (and white people to a lesser degree) for the last 30 - 40 years is the disappearance of a stable intact family consisting of one faithful, responsible man and one faithful, responsible woman bound in the commitment of a traditional marriage. BAR NONE… period.
[/quote]
If I told you that altruism, the morality of genuine unselfishness, was at the root of most of these sorts of evils, I know you’d just laugh. But a man can’t be free and be a servant to the needs of others at the same time and in the same respect (kudos to Aristotle here). Our morality conflicts with the founding principles of this country.
Until most people realize this and act on it, the world will keep wallowing in hell, with rare bursts of sunlight, like the creation of the United States.
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
— Atlas Shrugged
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
<<< I would suggest that because Prof X had both parents, and both parents were teachers he was already fairly middle class >>>
If only you and him could grasp the significance of what you just said and how just about everything else you say works to the detriment of this most important truth.
I have no idea what you’re implying here. I’ve never denied the importance of an intact family to the wellbeing of a child–and society at large.
The, THE, THEEEE most destructive issue confronting black people (and white people to a lesser degree) for the last 30 - 40 years is the disappearance of a stable intact family consisting of one faithful, responsible man and one faithful, responsible woman bound in the commitment of a traditional marriage. BAR NONE… period.
If I told you that altruism, the morality of genuine unselfishness, was at the root of most of these sorts of evils, I know you’d just laugh. But a man can’t be free and be a servant to the needs of others at the same time and in the same respect (kudos to Aristotle here). Our morality conflicts with the founding principles of this country.
Until most people realize this and act on it, the world will keep wallowing in hell, with rare bursts of sunlight, like the creation of the United States.
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
— Atlas Shrugged
[/quote]
I rather favor our own Thoreau:
“If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design to do me good, I should run for my life…”
A big part of africans in Finland are young men, if they are not refugees they are fortune seekers or students. It’s difficult to get a job. Of course there are problems.
I am going to have to disagree with you here. I think the main reason we as a people, not America, not Europe, but the entire world, are rooting from the core is due to our selfish nature. When a person genuinely wants to help another it can change a person?s life for the better. Should charity be force…no then of course it is not charity and it builds resentment towards others, but Chivalry has died and until we get it back our societies will continue to fall further and further from grace.
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
— Atlas Shrugged
I rather favor our own Thoreau:
“If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design to do me good, I should run for my life…”
–Henry David Thoreau[/quote]
Rand adopted America as her home. I consider her a true American.
I find it interesting that many of my fellow Americans fully admit that people are very selfish. Yet they then want to impose upon those people a morality which, by their own judgment, is unnatural. Why? If a morality is unnatural, why attempt to practice it? Its like a 300 pound powerlifter trying to be a gymnast — not happening.
Instead, let us recognize our selfish nature and build upon it. Make our innate selfishness into rational selfishness (as in trade). Make all relationships between people be voluntary. Not taxes but user fees. Not regulation but letting incompetents fail.
Recognize that your life, your liberty, your pursuit of happiness are… YOURS. “It is real…it is possible…it is yours.” — Atlas Shrugged
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
<<< If I told you that altruism, the morality of genuine unselfishness, was at the root of most of these sorts of evils, I know you’d just laugh. >>>[/quote]
You’re right, I would.
We are witnessing at this moment what an almost wholesale surrender to self will get us.
[quote]valiance. wrote:
<<< Well, good post. Sometimes we need to actually articulate our views so we don’t end up arguing with others strawmen. Seeing it all laid out like that is very different from seeing pieces of the arguments scattered throughout your posts.
Honestly the problem of the erosion of the black family is not one I know much about, have thought about, or can even discuss. Part of the reason this concept could not have ever fit in my head is it never even crossed my mind. It probably just comes down to different values/perspectives. Liberals (I almost spelled it Lieberals lol) just don’t think about this stuff, at least in my experience. Maybe someone here has some good leftist counterarguments but I don’t. I think you hit the nail on the head, actually; but its not a nail I saw sticking up at all. I came in here so busily pointing out the factual holes in other people’s arguments I missed the log in my eye. >>>[/quote]
Very very good man. Forgetting for a second about the content of anything you said, by which I do not mean to belittle it, but concentrating on it’s manner.
You have a calm disarming method of making debate which does 2 things. It projects confidence and credibility before anything else is even considered and it puts the onus of being the butthead on your opponent which further strengthens the first.
A third plus is that it would also draw out those who unable to answer on substance then contrast themselves to you by their raving. Generally speaking.
Of course none of this has anything whatever to do with whether you’re right or wrong about anything you say, but it is an exceedingly effective method in my opinion.
Your honesty in stating outright that you had never so much as considered what I said is both unsurprising and commendable.
Commendable because the human temptation is to feign a well developed opinion even when one doesn’t exist and unsurprising because the liberal mindset, even when attached to genuinely well meaning intelligence rarely makes the best observations and by extension reaches the best conclusions.
In short, I’d like to have you on my side, which in my view is really our side anyway.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
<<< If I told you that altruism, the morality of genuine unselfishness, was at the root of most of these sorts of evils, I know you’d just laugh. >>>
You’re right, I would.
We are witnessing at this moment what an almost wholesale surrender to self will get us.[/quote]
Yes…if everyone were utterly selfless and devoted themselves to the good of the group…you know, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need…I see it now.
We must eradicate this wicked self and all become servants of one another. Only a society where everyone is a slave to everyone else is acceptable.
Jeeezzzz…you wonder what’s destroying you and it is yourself.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
<<< If I told you that altruism, the morality of genuine unselfishness, was at the root of most of these sorts of evils, I know you’d just laugh. >>>
You’re right, I would.
We are witnessing at this moment what an almost wholesale surrender to self will get us.
Yes…if everyone were utterly selfless and devoted themselves to the good of the group…you know, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need…I see it now.
We must eradicate this wicked self and all become servants of one another. Only a society where everyone is a slave to everyone else is acceptable.
Jeeezzzz…you wonder what’s destroying you and it is yourself.
[/quote]
Where are you making this jump from? Things are not as simple as being either unleashed narcissistic hedonism or communism.
When one views doing what’s best for those they are directly responsible for as also being best for themselves and society as whole the truth begins to peak through. Of course this presupposes being responsible for somebody other than yourself to begin with.
People once based decisions on what most strengthened their spouse and children. That was the definition of what was best for themselves. The genius of this country used to be that accomplishing this was also generally best for everybody else and by extension the country as a whole.
Today people do whatever is most pleasurable and materially enriching to them alone and especially in the next 5 minutes. Hence the American family is scattered in ruins and every single other problem this country faces is traceable to that. Every single one. The idea of something other than my immediate gratification being paramount is dying along with the family which is the very embodiment of what once built upright, law abiding, responsible citizenship. It was learned from committed parents which are a genuinely endangered specie.
Everybody was a kid once and what they saw growing up is what they carry into adulthood in the vast majority of cases.
Before you can have free markets, you have to be…free.
Do you agree that all relationships between human beings should be voluntary on all sides? Do you agree someone violating this rule is a criminal and forfeits the right to be let alone?
You won’t be able to defend a country supposedly based on rights, if you don’t know what rights are. Your life, your liberty, your property, are sacred. No one else may take them without your consent.
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
— Atlas Shrugged
I rather favor our own Thoreau:
“If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design to do me good, I should run for my life…”
–Henry David Thoreau
Rand adopted America as her home. I consider her a true American.
I find it interesting that many of my fellow Americans fully admit that people are very selfish. Yet they then want to impose upon those people a morality which, by their own judgment, is unnatural. Why? If a morality is unnatural, why attempt to practice it? Its like a 300 pound powerlifter trying to be a gymnast — not happening.
Instead, let us recognize our selfish nature and build upon it. Make our innate selfishness into rational selfishness (as in trade). Make all relationships between people be voluntary. Not taxes but user fees. Not regulation but letting incompetents fail.
Recognize that your life, your liberty, your pursuit of happiness are… YOURS. “It is real…it is possible…it is yours.” — Atlas Shrugged
[/quote]
Her philosophy, when boiled down, is basically narcissism and hedonism. But that’s another thread entirely.
“I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”
— Atlas Shrugged
I rather favor our own Thoreau:
“If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design to do me good, I should run for my life…”
–Henry David Thoreau
Rand adopted America as her home. I consider her a true American.
I find it interesting that many of my fellow Americans fully admit that people are very selfish. Yet they then want to impose upon those people a morality which, by their own judgment, is unnatural. Why? If a morality is unnatural, why attempt to practice it? Its like a 300 pound powerlifter trying to be a gymnast — not happening.
Instead, let us recognize our selfish nature and build upon it. Make our innate selfishness into rational selfishness (as in trade). Make all relationships between people be voluntary. Not taxes but user fees. Not regulation but letting incompetents fail.
Recognize that your life, your liberty, your pursuit of happiness are… YOURS. “It is real…it is possible…it is yours.” — Atlas Shrugged
Her philosophy, when boiled down, is basically narcissism and hedonism. But that’s another thread entirely.
[/quote]
Do you see the contradiction between human nature and the morality which we embrace? Why does this exist at all?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Before you can have free markets, you have to be…free.
Do you agree that all relationships between human beings should be voluntary on all sides? Do you agree someone violating this rule is a criminal and forfeits the right to be let alone?
You won’t be able to defend a country supposedly based on rights, if you don’t know what rights are. Your life, your liberty, your property, are sacred. No one else may take them without your consent.
Any other system than that is evil.[/quote]
I do believe some level of taxation with the resulting revenues falling into the hands of law abiding constructionist officials is necessary though not outright voluntary.
As a pervading principle yes human interaction should be voluntary, but societies where citizens do not voluntarily regard the well being and advancement of others as also being their own well being and advancement do not last. Free societies anyway.
Selfishness is not evil in and of itself and defining self interest is paramount. People used to view their family unit as indistinguishable from themselves, at least the preponderance of the citizens did. Hence what was good for one was good for all.
Sometimes even what was best for somebody else’s family was thought to be more important at the moment and in the grand scheme of things than was best for their own. Those family units produced children with those values and our society as a whole was strong.
Today people go through partners like socks and me, me, me, as an individual is the all consuming motivation. The children learn that lesson all too easily and their relationships, business and everything else reflects that.