Black Peoples' Perception of Racism

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]valiance. wrote:
John S. wrote:
Black people the same oppertunity as I have.

WRONG

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...5091302070.html
http://www.mtgprofessor.com/...r_mortgages.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...7050902277.html
http://freakonomics.blogs.nyti…
http://justicepolicy.org/...imums_DP-MD.pdf
http://hamptonroads.com/...rgues-oversight
http://www.chicagogsb.edu/...df/bertrand.pdf
http://www.lri.lsc.gov/...05_racepref.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/...amp;oref=slogin

Race is as important as you make it. You can look at yourself as a black man or a white man or you can look at yourself as a man.
You have the same rights as everyone else.

I wish this was true. When’s the last time the cops shot a white guy dead for pulling out his wallet?

[/quote]

Now I havn’t taken a look at the websites yet but about the cop thing. That is the Individual, Understand I am just as pissed as you are about someone being shot over trying to get there wallet.

PS those links don’t work

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[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
<<< Yes,some IDIOTS embrace our socio-economic ills as cool…and what not. BUT they are idiots…and not the norm. >>>

I would contend that these people are not idiots in the sense of lacking intelligence. I say that they have been systematically encouraged to think that way by largely white liberals who need them, politically, to never rise above their present despair without their help. That would ruin everything.

Maybe so,but they are not the standard.

In other words, once again, the causes are not people’s “blackness”. It is their refusal to participate in this society on an equal footing with everybody else because of being incessantly buried in visions of a past that nobody can change.

So how exactly does this apply to what HH is saying?? But you are right in the first sentence.

We are owed and somebody is going to pay. We are African and we do not want any part of your white society beyond your money that is being stolen by, of all people, mostly white liberal politicians and given to us.

You didn’t quote this from me. Besides,do ALL black people share that ideology?? NO.

This may be the part of this post that really pisses you off, but I can only tell you that around here the “black first” attitude is the norm. That doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of people for whom it is not the norm, but I think there are more than you realize.

Not pissed at all…why do you “assume” that I would be? HH is not arguing against putting “black first”…he is taking upon himself to define what it is that “black” people are putting first…and using it to define an ENTIRE group of people. Socio-economic ills ARE NOT black culture…that is the main issue of this argument with HH. This may be your norm…but it still remains that this does not define an entire group of people’s culture. This may be the norm in Detroit(which doesn’t suprise me)…but there’s too many generalizations and blanket statements being made.

You’re taking issue just outside of what is actually being discussed concerning HH in this thread. How you missed this I do not know. You just recently criticized him for the way he’s using these same semantics.[/quote]

My post was specifically addressing the part of your post I did quote and had nothing to do with HH.

The second piece I tagged in quotes was referring to a general attitude and no person in particular, including you, which explains why your name was not attached to it.

I’m expressing my own thoughts.

In no case is there ever a generalization that can be applied universally to any group. We are buried in crime in this area. All anybody sees day in and day out is which black person victimized which other black person.

There was a case a few months back where a black teen walked up to an elderly black man who was getting into his car after getting some gas. It was caught on the surveillance cameras. He beat this man to a pulp with his fists and stole his wallet. It turns out the old timer was a decorated WWII vet and when they interviewed him in the hospital with his face bandaged and swollen I actually had tears running down my cheeks.

Here’s a guy who fought for this country when he had every reason to tell it to go to hell. For what? So a black child who knows nothing of the true oppression he lived though and who’s future he took up arms on foreign soil to buy could beat him like a dog and steal his money?

In another, six blocks from my house, a guy went into a day care center shot three women and then stomped his own illegitimate daughter’s brains out with his boot to avoid paying child support.

I could spend the next five pages on true stories like this. You’re gonna ask “so white people never do this kind of thing?” Yes they do, but the per capita numbers by demographic are a fraction of what they are for blacks. That’s just the fact.

Let me tell you friend, it takes a conscious effort to view things from a higher perspective to escape falling into the mindset that this is just how black people are. Please try to see what I’m saying from an objective standpoint. My point is that this is what happens when responsible loving husbands and fathers are replaced by bureaucrats in a distant city and it would be just the same for people of any race in the same situation.

Money, or the lack thereof is not even the primary issue. Blacks were not treating each other this way when they lived in virtual 3rd world squalor in this country.

HeadHunter chooses an intentionally clumsy and unrefined manner to state his case. Like it or not he is a smart guy and is capable of better if he so desired. I believe he does this primarily because he knows it will piss Professor X off. Why? Because he hates the guy and I’m pretty sure the feeling is mutual. In my view those 2 are a microcosmic sample of why race relations are not improving as they could be in this country,

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Let me tell you friend, it takes a conscious effort to view things from a higher perspective to escape falling into the mindset that this is just how black people are.
[/quote]
Here lies what is being currently addressed in this thread.

[quote]
HeadHunter chooses an intentionally clumsy and unrefined manner to state his case. Like it or not he is a smart guy and is capable of better if he so desired. I believe he does this primarily because he knows it will piss Professor X off. Why? Because he hates the guy and I’m pretty sure the feeling is mutual. In my view those 2 are a microcosmic sample of why race relations are not improving as they could be in this country,[/quote]

So basically,you’re taking this time to vent? Nothing wrong with that…I understand your frustrations. We both could trade stories. But you are missing the point that is being addressed. And regardless of this being a microcosmic samples,etc of failed race relations,…they are people who truly view things in HH’s point of view.

And why is he getting a “pass” just because he’s a smart guy capable of better if so desired?? If you see the same faults in what he is saying,then why not say so…as you do with others??

85

I should add to BIG BOSS here that When I say things like “I don’t know how somebody could or could not ____________” I’m not referring to you.

You asked me a few questions a week or 2 back where you said you were just trying to understand my viewpoint and I believed and still do that you were being honest and reasonable. I can talk to somebody like that all day even if we don’t agree.

In that same spirit I asked Professor X, who I still consider a friend, a couple questions just trying to understand better and he has written me off near as I can tell.

Doc, that kind of reactionary hypersensitivity lends credence to your critics.

86

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
<<< And why is he getting a “pass” just because he’s a smart guy capable of better if so desired?? If you see the same faults in what he is saying,then why not say so…as you do with others??

[/quote]

I don’t think HH believes all of this is because people have black skin any more than I do. If he does then I profoundly disagree. I have stated that I sense he chooses to phrase his posts in this abrasive manner to needle those he dislikes.

If I am accurately understanding what the substance of his views are on then my contention is with his method not his message. I told him a long time ago I thought his way of communicating was counterproductive.

If I believed HH actually viewed black people as inferior because they are black I would be first to take him to task on that. Maybe it’s the other way around. Maybe he really does hate blacks and tempers his posts to cover that up, but like I say, I don’t sense that is the case.

I don’t know why you say I’m giving him a pass though. On another note, who am I to give or not give anybody a pass here anyway. I have no special standing

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

You actually are keeping the black man down simply by virtue of being white in a society where that is an advantage. Your acceptance of this advantage rather than challenging it makes you complicit in oppression of black people. But lets ignore white privilege, the whole concept is not only way above your head and far too liberal for you, but will just incite a flamewar.

In all seriousness where in our society today…not 5, 10, or 50 years ago, but today does any person have an advantage due to their ethnicity? I’m not trying to make a joke I at all here. [/quote]

I thank you for your candor and inquisitiveness.

There are huge advantages to being white in this society. Racism persists in many areas of US life: black people pay more for mortgages, are offered worse interest rates on everything from car loans to mortgages, are paid less wages for doing the same job, are offered jobs less frequently for the same credentials, are imprisoned more often and longer for the same crimes etc etc ad infinitum…

black names a disadvantage in job application:

racial discrimination in the job market:
http://www.chicagogsb.edu/pdf/bertrand.pdf
sounding black hurts your wages:

racial gap in employment:
http://www.lri.lsc.gov/pdf/03/030105_racepref.pdf
differential sentencing by race:
http://justicepolicy.org/images/upload/07-02_REP_MDMandatoryMinimums_DP-MD.pdf
racial disparities in drug arrests:

This above one is especially important because a lot of people (including black people) have the mistaken idea that half the black community is criminal drug users. White and black rates of drug use (per capita) are about the same http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k7/popDensity/popDensity.htm
, yet blacks are imprisoned far out of proportion to their criminality. Targeting Blacks: Drug Law Enforcement and Race in the United States | HRW

minorities pay more for mortgages/autoloans:

rental bias:
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/10/rental-bias-study-argues-oversight
disparities in sentencing:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/170062.html

something about the post i copied them from messed up the links somehow, they should work now…

Most of these things are hidden, and most of them are not sanctioned by society at large or the government or anyone.

here’s something on white privilege to get you started. It’s little things, but it all adds up. Think the death of a thousand cuts here. http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

Now why am I banging on about this? Well just as whites often say cleaning up the black community of criminality is a black issue, can’t we say cleaning up the white community of racism should be a white issue? But it’s not. Because you guys don’t see it, and can’t fight it, we’ve got to step in. But when we try to point it out you often say “well I never saw that”. Of course not, it isn’t happening to you, and it isn’t as blatant as in past times. Only by taking a wider view–like that of deliberate sociological studies, or if you had access to the combined knowledge of the black community could you see what’s actually going on. Not talking about anyone here personally, I’m just saying in general it’s easy to miss these kinds of things.

By the same token shouldn’t whites have a role in helping blacks police their community as well? Don’t we have some kind of responsibility to each other to point out our flaws?

The only kind of racism a lot of white people see is affirmative action, which was put in place to counter the current covert racism and redress historical inequalities. Because it’s the most visible it becomes a big target, but I guarantee that’s just about the only advantage of being black in this country and even it comes with its downside.

So in a way I can’t fault white people for not knowing, it’s tough to see if you’re not the target of it. Even in the 1950s and 60s if you polled them a majority of white people would have said they thought racial equality had already been achieved. I say this not to make fun (although that IS hilarious) but to show that we all have blinders on when something isn’t happening to us. I’m trying to acknowledge it’s tough for ya’ll to see what we’re pointing out. But instead of arguing with us about shit that has happened TO US, just listen. If you wanna start on the road to racial harmony it’s that easy. Unfortunately it’s hard to talk about (or listen to discussions of) race in this society. But hopefully that will change.

[quote]John S. wrote:

Now I havn’t taken a look at the websites yet but about the cop thing. That is the Individual, Understand I am just as pissed as you are about someone being shot over trying to get there wallet.

PS those links don’t work[/quote]

Links are fixed now :smiley:

I would argue that it’s not an individual thing. It’s racist indoctrination that black men are scary or criminals. If you believe that, then in the heat of the moment when facing a black man who is potentially dangerous, you are just a tiny % chance more likely to pull the trigger. But over time and over multiple people that adds up to a lot of black men dead. And not just criminals. Undercover black cops are routinely shot dead by their colleagues. Try Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink for a good exploration of the topic.

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[quote]valiance. wrote:
A very long post[/quote]

I don’t even know where to start addressing the 50 partial truths and misleading statements in this post. Maybe if I get especially motivated later I’ll give it a shot.

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[quote]valiance. wrote:

I would argue that it’s not an individual thing. It’s racist indoctrination that black men are scary or criminals. If you believe that, then in the heat of the moment when facing a black man who is potentially dangerous, you are just a tiny % chance more likely to pull the trigger. But over time and over multiple people that adds up to a lot of black men dead. And not just criminals. Undercover black cops are routinely shot dead by their colleagues. Try Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink for a good exploration of the topic. [/quote]

A tiny % chance more likely is a good as it’s going to get.

90

So we’re all agreed HH is racist?

91

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as: “the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others.”

"Cultural Racism: This term is being used with increasing frequency to draw attention to a shift in the focial point of much racism from physical characteristics such as social customs, manners and behavior, religious and moral beliefs and practices, language, aesthetic values and leisure activities.

Whereas post-reflective gut racism seeks to explain and justify racist attitudes in religious or scientific terms, cultural racism attempts the same thing in cultural terms. It involves prejudice against individuals because of their culture.

The culture of minority groups is seen as flawed in soem way, and thus as standing in the way of their progress. Unlike post-reflective gut racism, however, cultural racism does not involve belief in the existence of any biological incapacity to change.

On the contrary, change is exactly what is sought. Minorities are encouraged to turn their back on their own culture and to become absorbed by the majority culture."

Sound familiar?

Racist.[/quote]

How many dictionaries did you have to dig through until you found that nonsense? You do know the difference between a culture and a race, right? You are of a particular race but embrace a particular culture. One is a choice the other is not.

You folks are just going to keep re-defining everything until everyone is a racist aren’t you?

Classic scapegoatting.

Fool.

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[quote]Amused59 wrote:
So we’re all agreed HH is racist? [/quote]

All those in agreement,say ‘Aye’.

All those not in agreement,say ‘Nay’.

Aye.

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[quote]John S. wrote:
Professor X wrote:
John S. wrote:

valiance. wrote:
YOU face up to it. White people created a culture that destroyed and dehumanized black people, and now you’re complaining about reaping what you sowed. Black anti-intellectualism is largely the fruit of WHITE efforts to keep blacks uneducated and powerless. Of course any attempt to reverse systemic racism is whined about as “reverse racism”. While you also ignore the very real barriers that make life significantly harder as a black person in the US today.

What do you mean reaping what we sowed? When did I ever keep the black man down. Why is it ok for you to lump all white people together but if I was to hold you accountable for every black mans mistakes I’m a fucking racist. If you are to hold me accountable for every mistake a white person has made then I will hold you accountable for every black persons mistake.

Or we could agree to judge the individual, which would you prefer?

Wait…when does “judge the individual” start? If that were happening already, there wouldn’t be stats like what was listed related only to the race of those being discussed unless their race was truly a significant factor.

How should people react to issues like that? Ignore them so that you can feel better?

Systemic racism allows things like that occur with no opposition…and many of you will even defend it. What is the course of action against something like that?

Fixing racism takes everyone not just whitey. If everyone agreed to let the past go then we could move on. There will always be stupid people in every race, and that will never change but you holding whitey responsible for all your problems is fucking bullshit.
[/quote]

Its not a black phenomenon to scapegoat others for your troubles — look at the Nazis and the Jews. But in this country it is far easier to redefine racism in bullshit dictionaries and blame white society for everything. Hey, if they didn’t have us, they’d have to blame the Koreans who own the convenience stores in their neighborhoods.

“1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination”

I am, in fact, arguing AGAINST discrimination based upon race while attacking a loser culture.

Our black/lib posters just can’t accept that what they’ve believed in all their lives has, in fact, fucked their people over.

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Looks like I’ll have to read this thread to see what the latest HH controversy is about.

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[quote]John S. wrote:

While HH’s numbers are not telling the whole story they do point out something. Something there is failing them. We as a country are failing them. [/quote]

Does this mean that black people need a bailout? Failing them? You owe no one anything. I owe no one anything.

Its a choice to go to school. In Cleveland, near where I live, around one third of black students ever graduate from high school. Why? The school is there. ‘Bull’ Conner is not there with his dogs to keep them out. The school is free, public education. The students have IQs equal to the white kids. What’s the diff? The culture.

Want to succeed in America? Get an education, marry the mother of your children, act responsibly — its not rocket science guys.

And quit blaming whitey for not handing life to you on a platter.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
Looks like I’ll have to read this thread to see what the latest HH controversy is about.[/quote]

HH makes troll post.

For some reason, people respond.

Gawd, I love cliffnotes.

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[quote]Headhunter wrote:
<<< I am, in fact, arguing AGAINST discrimination based upon race while attacking a loser culture.

Our black/lib posters just can’t accept that what they’ve believed in all their lives has, in fact, fucked their people over.

[/quote]

If this is what you mean then I agree. I don’t think I would pin it on anybody here in particular unless they own it themselves though. It is this kind of generalization that keeps giving people ammunition to blast you with.

I would also argue that the self destructive culture is itself a symptom of the disintegration of the family which has in turn had it’s gears continually greased by liberal politicians that have been mostly white.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
valiance. wrote:
A very long post

I don’t even know where to start addressing the 50 partial truths and misleading statements in this post. Maybe if I get especially motivated later I’ll give it a shot.[/quote]

Well a lot of it is my opinion, with which you are free to disagree. I don’t know where you get partial truths and misleading statements from statements of opinion. But if you think my facts are wrong let me know.