BJ vs KenFlo / Anderson Silva vs Forrest Griffin

Training
81

[quote]tallsprawl wrote:
long post on BJ’s training.

Reading T-Nation, we have been indoctrinated to believe that lifting heavy weights, as fast as possible will make for better physiques and athletes. Exercises such as - snatch, deadlift, military press.

I do believe that this is correct for building an impressive physique but believe that this is only part of the puzzle for building a great athlete. Being strong helps but you need to be good at your sport first to do well in your sport.

BJ is training with marv marinovich. Marv focuses on building athletes from the ground up - literally focusing on the feet, ankle, and toes to ensure their athlete can react to the actions and sequences that occur in their trainee’s sport. Marinovich’s goal is not to make an athlete lift twice their body weight in the snatch, but to make their athlete faster by teaching them how to maximize/trigger their coordination, timing, and reflexes in their sport. You can’t touch what you can’t hit, or you can hit first and never be hit. He is trying to make bj penn a better athlete, not a strong weightlifter.

Here’s a little insight to bj penn’s S&C training for GSP 2 from friends who attended university of hilo, Hawaii - it was terrible.

He would run a minimum of 5 miles a day and workout like a bodybuilder. Basically this made him slow and burnt out, with super slow long distance endurance. I do believe BJ realizes this now and is working on how to become fast and quick. Let me know what you think.[/quote]

If BJ is training with Marv at Sports Lab then KenFlo is gonna wreck him worse than I thought.

82

In all fairness to Marv he does have some sound ideas for S&C.

I was actually introduced to them when I trained the mother of his coauthor. the book if your interested is called ‘ProBodX’.

And since his original background is football, I will give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to understaning the issues of hard contact. But . .

His history is still majority success with baseball, basketball, football, even gymnasts, but not fighters.

Fighting S&C is so far outside the norm of other athletes, I honestly think the evolution of it for MMA is still years in the making. But in a nutshell.

Marv will improve Bj’s speed timing, quickness and agility. He will also improve Bj’s durability, an muscle endurance. Which compliments BJ’s immense natural talents.

But, as far as explosiveness and power. I don’t see him adding anything there. Nor do I see an improvement in strength. Basically he will take BJ’s talents and ramp them up to compensate for any mismatches he may face in strength, striking skills, or power.

Will that be enough? Hey it’s BJ, so maybe.

But if BJ wins, I hope no one thinks it was some Marv miracle. It would be just having some half decent coaching (for once) for an already talented athlete.

So I applaud BJ’s attempt to adapt.

But I’m still rooting for Sityodtong ; )

83

Well Marv does a lot of plyometrics training and according to his clients they see big improvements in power. I read some article about a pitcher who started throwing faster. Who knows this is weird. Kenny works with that fat guy who loves the Bosu ball and JC Santana (the dude that blew his ACL squatting on a swiss ball) so I say they are even there.

84

[quote]Barachiel wrote:
In all fairness to Marv he does have some sound ideas for S&C.

I was actually introduced to them when I trained the mother of his coauthor. the book if your interested is called ‘ProBodX’.

And since his original background is football, I will give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to understaning the issues of hard contact. But . .

His history is still majority success with baseball, basketball, football, even gymnasts, but not fighters.

Fighting S&C is so far outside the norm of other athletes, I honestly think the evolution of it for MMA is still years in the making. But in a nutshell.

Marv will improve Bj’s speed timing, quickness and agility. He will also improve Bj’s durability, an muscle endurance. Which compliments BJ’s immense natural talents.

But, as far as explosiveness and power. I don’t see him adding anything there. Nor do I see an improvement in strength. Basically he will take BJ’s talents and ramp them up to compensate for any mismatches he may face in strength, striking skills, or power.

Will that be enough? Hey it’s BJ, so maybe.

But if BJ wins, I hope no one thinks it was some Marv miracle. It would be just having some half decent coaching (for once) for an already talented athlete.

So I applaud BJ’s attempt to adapt.

But I’m still rooting for Sityodtong ; )[/quote]

Good for BJ for trying something new and seeking help in improving his physical attributes. Guess we’ll have to see how it works out for him.

85

[quote]drewh wrote:
Well Marv does a lot of plyometrics training and according to his clients they see big improvements in power. I read some article about a pitcher who started throwing faster. Who knows this is weird. Kenny works with that fat guy who loves the Bosu ball and JC Santana (the dude that blew his ACL squatting on a swiss ball) so I say they are even there.[/quote]

Me thinks that if Kenny is training with GSP then that means he’s also training with Jonathan Chaimberg… I’ll take his S & C over Sports Lab any day.

86

He trained for GSP for a week or two and is going back for another, so no he still trains with Kevin Kearns and the Boston crew.

87

[quote]drewh wrote:
He trained for GSP for a week or two and is going back for another, so no he still trains with Kevin Kearns and the Boston crew.[/quote]

Yikes, swiss balls and wobble boards it is then…

88

Oh no doubt, Marv has a World Series Champion pitcher on his resume. I just don’t know if his style is good for MMA.

I’m actually curious to compare old BJ style in previous fights, to his new fight. See if there is a difference in his transitions, or striking combos. I mostly rotate Marv’s principles in for rehab and transitioning to regular training.

But I still hold to the idea, that a potential BJ victory will be a matter of him living up to his potential. Not the ‘genius of his training’ directly.

89

[quote]tallsprawl wrote:
long post on BJ’s training.

Reading T-Nation, we have been indoctrinated to believe that lifting heavy weights, as fast as possible will make for better physiques and athletes. Exercises such as - snatch, deadlift, military press.

I do believe that this is correct for building an impressive physique but believe that this is only part of the puzzle for building a great athlete. Being strong helps but you need to be good at your sport first to do well in your sport.

BJ is training with marv marinovich. Marv focuses on building athletes from the ground up - literally focusing on the feet, ankle, and toes to ensure their athlete can react to the actions and sequences that occur in their trainee’s sport. Marinovich’s goal is not to make an athlete lift twice their body weight in the snatch, but to make their athlete faster by teaching them how to maximize/trigger their coordination, timing, and reflexes in their sport. You can’t touch what you can’t hit, or you can hit first and never be hit. He is trying to make bj penn a better athlete, not a strong weightlifter.

Here’s a little insight to bj penn’s S&C training for GSP 2 from friends who attended university of hilo, Hawaii - it was terrible.

He would run a minimum of 5 miles a day and workout like a bodybuilder. Basically this made him slow and burnt out, with super slow long distance endurance. I do believe BJ realizes this now and is working on how to become fast and quick. Let me know what you think.[/quote]

Oh come on.
First, let’s assume your friend was right. Then BJ indeed had a less then optimal preparation.
“training like a bodybuilder” can be fine for a fighter- however, do it between preparation for a fight.
“running 5 miles a day” before an important fight on top of an unusual hard and novel training is bs.
BUT: many fighters did and do enjoy daily long distance cardio.

"teaching them how to maximize/trigger their coordination, timing, and reflexes in their sport. "
This is where our middle ground ends. You won’t improve aforementioned qualities on a wobbly board.
A BJ Penn who snatches twice his bodyweight would be def. more dangerous, while swissball BJ is perhaps a little bit more injury resistant.
These claims are so ridiculous it’s not even funny.

90

Why, max strength is not the most imortant quality a fighter needs. Martin Rooney and countless others have said train for OPTIMAL strength. What would BJ need a double bodyweight snatch for? Every program has its flaws, but BJs current program is lightyears ahead of what he was doing.

91

To Schwarzfahrer

I’m not sure if I understand your post -

I do not believe that BJ Penn had an optimal S&C program for his fight with GSP 2. I do believe he was working hard, just not the right way. He brought in amazing BJJ and wrestling champions, not sure who he brought in for striking for his fight, but his strength and conditioning training was not optimal, and I do believe it hindered his performance for the GSP 2 fight.

Also about the wobble boards, swiss ball, and isokinetic training that BJ is doing with Marv M. - I have no idea if they work. The only thing I have really heard about wobble board and swiss ball training is from the writers from T-Nation and they believe its not the ideal training system. But Marv marinovich does believe it works and his clientele believe it does also due to their increased athletic performance while training under his system. Mr. Marinovich and Sport Science Lab works with world class and upcoming athletes - champion swimmers, water polo players, mlb pitchers, professional football players, national track and field champions, on and on using wobble boards and swiss ball training. You cannot argue with his results because his clientele keep on coming back saying how well his training has helped them. Who do you work with and how can you say that wobble boards and swiss ball training doesn’t work?

Our opinions don’t matter on which training system works best, results achieved through the training systems we use do.

92

My brain tells me BJ and Anderson will win their respective fights…

BUT my heart tells me that Forrest and KenFlo will win. I am a big fan of both, especially Forrest…and if Silva comes in not willing to push the pace, and Forrest comes in with that master game plan with Couture in his corner, I think it could be bad news for Anderson.

93

[quote]GumsMagoo wrote:
drewh wrote:
He trained for GSP for a week or two and is going back for another, so no he still trains with Kevin Kearns and the Boston crew.

Yikes, swiss balls and wobble boards it is then…[/quote]

hey guys.I just joined the site.I’m Jon chaimberg owner of adrenalineperformancecenter…and I can assure you there will be no more swiss ball bullsh**

Kenny has been here twice,and will come back again and myself and georges will go there to help later on…He’s seen huge improvements already,and am so impressed at where he’s come from since he started the program a month ago…

BJ at sportslab will just be working on his strengths…flexability,and balance…he’ll stay in his comfort zone.I promise you ,you will see the most powerful,athletic kenflo to date

pleasure to be on this board,…i’ll drop by whenever I can

94

Good to have you posting here Jonathan, I’ve seen your videos - great work with your athletes.

I might as well bend your ear a bit if you happen to see this - how many Strength & Conditioning sessions/week do your UFC fighters do in the preparatory phase for their fights? Say, 8-14 weeks out? And how do you adjust these in frequency intensity as you get closer to a fight?

95

[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Good to have you posting here Jonathan, I’ve seen your videos - great work with your athletes.

I might as well bend your ear a bit if you happen to see this - how many Strength & Conditioning sessions/week do your UFC fighters do in the preparatory phase for their fights? Say, 8-14 weeks out? And how do you adjust these in frequency intensity as you get closer to a fight?[/quote]

8-14 we are normally 3 sessions

closer to a fight it may stay at 3 but 1 day is just esd work at a track.Recipe isusually is reducing volume for intensity closer to fight.Every athlete periodizes different,but the outline stays similar

96

Looking forward to reading some training insight from your posts Jon. I don’t really train for MMA purposes but I find it fascinating to read what top coaches do with their fighters and athletes.

Get Kenny ready to kick BJ’s ass!

PS–is there ever a time period where your fighters have more than 3 training sessions a week, or are the demands from all the rolling/striking/sparring practices too much to increase frequency much more?

97

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Looking forward to reading some training insight from your posts Jon. I don’t really train for MMA purposes but I find it fascinating to read what top coaches do with their fighters and athletes.

Get Kenny ready to kick BJ’s ass!

PS–is there ever a time period where your fighters have more than 3 training sessions a week, or are the demands from all the rolling/striking/sparring practices too much to increase frequency much more?[/quote]

thanks again…

only time would be if they werent training other disciplines…example is Denis Kang broke his ankle 6 weeks before alan belcher fight,and couldnt wrestle,roll,or spar…he should have cancelled the fight,but didnt…that being said we had him condition what he could IE; upper body,what he could lower body,and conditionng

98

that part about kang breaking his ankle six weeks prior to his fight is pretty nuts. good to have you around.

99

Jonathan,

Good to have you here, I’m a big fan of your work, but hurry up and come out with your DVD already! I’ve got money burning a hole in my pocket! :slight_smile:

100

John, welcome and thank you.

I’m hosting the Ken Flo/BJ fight at my place. And it’s going to be a friendly but divided house of Sityodtong and Hawaii. Possibly some side wagers ; )

side note:
Are you open to questions. I am really interested in S&C for MMA fighters. I’m on the West Coast and my colleagues and I are looking to set up something like you have here.