Biology of Race

Einstein spent the better part of the “second phase” of his scientific career arguing against quantum mechanics. He simply could not come to terms with the implications of a theory he helped to propel (from his work on the photoelectric effect) and was convinced Neils Bohr, Erwin Schrodinger, and others were wrong. He would devise thought experiments to show the limitations (or incompleteness) of quantum mechanics, and died not succeeding. Quantum mechanics is the only scientific theory (as far as I know) that has withstood every test thrown at it, but because it is so non-intuitive, even the best scientific minds did not readily accept it.

So, as far as “true things” when it comes to biology, genetics, and human evolution, that is tough. There are some many variables involved, so much open to human interpretation, and so much bias we bring with us. Also, as this thread shows, so much is based on understanding of words humans devised and defined. Notice I haven’t chimed in on if race is real or a social construct, because I don’t know and it leaves itself open to words, phrases, and biases we all use. It’s like arguing if alcoholism is a disease or an addiction. One could argue “disease” and post articles from the medical community showing it is an accepted term. Yet the term “disease” is something humans made up and is not strictly a scientific concept. Race is also a term made up by humans, and not an absolute scientific “truth” like atomic emission spectra and relating these spectra to quantized energy levels. So, in addition to accepting things that are “true” for fuzzy issues such as race (which I am not convinced is possible to do), I think one must ask “is it useful and compassionate to do so”? To me, the answer is “no”.

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  1. did you get a chance to get the link I posted? I’m just going to paraphrase that, perhaps you can read it and give me your objections, it’s not long

  2. I’m not “assuming” blacks are more athletic, they test higher in all sorts of physical categories - average foot speed, average testosterone levels, more fast twitch muscle fibers (helps with leaping).

Are you saying science is continually changing and what we believe now could be found to be completely wrong down the road?

If counter evidence is presented I will change my position

Similarly, the prevailing opinion throughout the 1960’s / 1970’s / 1980’s (and remnants of this remain even today) was that blacks were athletically superior (accounting for the preponderance of black players at running back, wide receiver, and defensive back) but that they were not smart enough to play the quarterback position (or even middle linebacker, who typically called signals for the defense in those days), and therefore were often systematically routed away from playing the more “cerebral” positions.

Warren Moon, now in the NFL Hall of Fame and one of the most productive passers of all time, played in the Canadian Football League for his first five professional seasons because no NFL team would draft him as a quarterback (this after winning the MVP of the Rose Bowl in his final collegiate season). He finally got a chance in the NFL and quickly proved that he belonged in the League all along.

The logical conclusion of someone watching NFL football in 1975 with raj’s logic was that blacks weren’t smart enough to play quarterback.

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I did. I feel like I responded reasonably completely to it (via the part you excerpted) upthread.

I kinda believe subconsciously many sports fans accept racial differences as the playing field is basically ground zero for this stuff.

Well, that’s obvious that what we believe now could be found wrong. (luckily, no one’s arguing the earth is flat on these forums, but had T Nation been around centuries ago you can bet that would the topic of some threads).

But I think you have the wrong idea of scientific “truths”. There can really be no scientific “proof” that these people are certain “races”, these certain “sub-races”, etc… because we defined and, then, interpret what race means, and what biological evidence we use to justify it. A better analogy is that Pluto was a planet, now it’s not. How can this be? We defined the term “planet”, and interpret it. There is no pure scientific “truth” that is a planet, nor a “race”. I feel like you’re looking for something that cannot be obtained.

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I don’t doubt you’re correct in this belief. But as I hope you’ll agree, the fact that many people believe something in no way implies it is true.

@antiquity, I suspect you will assent when I say that the word ‘proof’ and its derivations (prove; proven; etc) rarely play any role in discussions concerning scientific issues. Mathematicians, logicians and geometers prove things–not scientists.

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Much of what you said also applies to breeds of dogs.

There are few universal truths in this world

Remember those Thomas Jefferson letters, where at first he’s like " some races can’t do geometry" then he changes his mind?

Are those Often posted writings relevant to this discussion?

After seeing the iq bell curve I honestly don’t see how the bottom 3rd of African Americans are able to sell their labor. They are essentially marooned in an economy unsuited for their abilities unless they’re good at sports or willing to sell narcotics.

Of course recognizing this will cause the ideology of our leaders to completely collapse so they’ll never accept it.

Its an accepted fact among geneticists that gene traits differ according to what part of the world genes come from. Percentage of fast twitch muscle fiber and intelligence ~on average~ will be higher in people with certain ancestries.

First, a word on the subject of what people (regardless of skin color) might do for employment if they lack the intellectual capacity or desire for advanced education. I am, admittedly, the product of a white-collar household and have a white-collar job, so I’ll not pretend to be an expert on the subject of all things available to unskilled laborers, but I don’t have to think hard to come up with jobs that don’t require a genius-level intellect, or even an average intellect.

The hospital in which I work employs a number of janitors, dishwashers, and other professions which do not require an excessively high IQ, only the ability to show up on time and perform a relatively menial task. One of the cafeteria dudes stops by and says hi every time my staff & I go up for lunch. He can barely speak a complete sentence, but he holds down a job just fine. Someone has to walk around and wipe the tables.

Every grocery store in the country employs cashiers, janitors, butchers, deli workers.

Every major highway across the country has rest stops employing cashiers, janitors, and food service workers.

Every gas station (for now, anyway) employs cashiers, janitors, and many have food service workers.

We can have a separate discussion about whether the salary paid for such jobs is sufficient for someone to live on, but there remains at least some market for unskilled labor that requires little more than a willingness to show up.

I don’t remember where is the post is above in which it is speculated that blacks are the minority or nearly nonexistent in hockey and swimming because of socioeconomic circumstances.

If it’s just a matter of exposure and resources, then why has there only been one white man in history to run a sub-ten second 100 meters? After all, if it’s a poor person sports generally, regardless of race, how come only one white man in all the time there has been track sports has managed to do that?

Basketball and football are available to whites and blacks regardless of expensive resources and blacks are prevalent or dominating in both sports. How does this explain the resource-deficiency, not to mention that basketball was a sport invented by a white man and initially played by whites yet they haven’t succeeded in it in the numbers blacks do?

Anyway, at this point in time in America there are tens of thousands (perhaps more) blacks that have the means to send their children for hockey and swimming lessons. But they don’t! I work with over four hundred blacks and perhaps a few dozen other non-whites, nurses, CNA’s, janitors, housekeeping, along with solely black electricians and elevator repair men, who are making mid-five to low-six figure salaries, with great health benefits, a union, pensions, and tuition reimbursement. (Does this sound like repression to anyone?) Guess what? I think it’s safe to say that hardly any or none send their kids to hockey or swimming lessons.

Can’t we just recognize that certain sports, art, music, and recreational activities are favored by different people simply because of their inner natures and anatomical and cognitive configurations? I simply don’t know what the heck is wrong with this and why there has to be an elaborate reason or excuse as to why one group doesn’t succeed in an area in which another does, seriously?! We can’t just casually say R&B is a black thing, salsa, is a Caribbean thing, and opera is a European thing, without a subsequent song-and-dance explanation because it hurts the feelings of grown men, despite what everyone sees and experiences over and over and over again! And this goes for other sub sequential actions and behaviors and performances in areas more consequential than GAMES (it’s what they are at the end of the day) and music!

I haven’t been able to keep up with the thread, but what I find amusing (and I don’t mean this in a confrontational way), is that despite all the talk here and elsewhere regarding race–whether it’s biological or social–and socioeconomic problems and who’s downtrodden, and every excuse in the book as to why one group falls behind another–none of this matters in the end regarding RESULTS AND ACTIONS.

We can talk til we are blue in the face or type until our arms and hands can no longer go on; that all doesn’t matter in the end as far as I and others are concerned. What matters in the end are actions. That is, when left to choose and with freedom to associate, the various groups of this world mostly (nearly all) self-segregate! That is, Asians stick with Asians, Whites stick with whites, and blacks stick with blacks and so on, and so on! If this wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t find near exclusively or largely Asian, Black Hispanic, Indian, Polish, Portuguese or Italian towns and businesses here in NYC and Long Island. All such such people are obviously discriminative (otherwise how would this situation arise?) and I don’t see what’s wrong with it considering most of them are law-abiding, raising families, respectful (though perhaps not all are gregarious), and so on.

If I go to an Asian restaurant around here, in nearly all cases the staff is Asian. If I go to a Polish restaurant, only Poles are employed. Can I get into the concrete business easily? Likely not; I’m not Portuguese or Italian.

Is there something wrong with these people? Are they bigoted in their actions? Should someone reprimand and buffalo them into moving to other towns and hiring others to become less racially or ethnically discriminative and thereby change their ways of doing things? After all, these scenarios don’t happen by accident.

Let’s go forward with a more crude but realistic example, this one involving the code-speak of many people, and it’s a type of code-speak I’ve uncounted my whole life, even up to a few weeks ago when speaking to a real estate agent. Notice how the words “good”, “changed”, “bad”, and “changing” are used.

“You don’t wanna live there. The town is OK, but the school district is bad.”

“The neighborhood changed/is changing.

“We are looking at houses in _______. The school district there is good.

Anyone with half a brain knows what this all means.

And actually all the people I’ve heard talk in such a manner or ordinary, friendly, law-abiding people. They’re harmless. They simply want to live in a certain fashion and don’t want or want to deal with certain groups or want to mostly be around their own kinds. Is this bigoted? Some even have truly good things to say about the people they’re avoiding or who they choose not to socialize with (e.g., law abidingness, cleanliness, respectfulness, family-oriented, church-going, etc).

I make these examples because what I see not his forum and in the outside world is a supposed moral superiority or snootiness that is expressed when people imply that millions upon millions of people are heavily flawed because of their decisions and ways of living and preferences based on race and ethnicity. They’ll say, “people SHOULD judge one another individually,” this or that one is bigoted, “people SHOULD see beyond race”, should this, should that, are wrong for doing this, etc, etc. Or they’ll focus on themselves in such statements like this, “I have a friend who…,” “I never experienced/saw that…”, “I never read that…” as if everything that is unique to them goes for thousands or millions of other people in this world!

Some often say stuff with no solution at all, rightfully so, because there is no way to change the nature of billions of human beings! Some will say, as above, “I judge people individually.” Well, watcha gonna do about the billions who don’t, and continue to discriminate in benign ways, and yes, DANGEROUS ways, usually by way of tribal or nation-based warfare, or even inside a prison setting where race is the most divisive everyday life factor.

Someone gonna change all this? No! That’s why, as I said, and for a Cliff Notes/TLDR version of my post: actions are even more important at the end of the day, over biology and social constructs and theories!

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Thank you! Good post!

I’m like you. Even if there’s a heated debate amongst men on a topic, it doesn’t mean we can’t respect one another despite opposing views, nor do we have to cause trouble for others for opposing views. It’s not like anyone here is a bad guy regardless of their views.

I disagree about hockey. There aren’t many blacks in hockey because it’s quite expensive and most blacks are low SES. They’re also way more likely to be in single mother homes. You need a dad around to drive you to hockey practice at 5am in the morning if you want to play hockey.

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Then why aren’t there more whites running sub-ten second 100 meter sprints if it’s cheap for blacks and whites?

Could it not be that whites simply have a knack for what’s involved in hockey, while others don’t, just like some blacks have a knack for sprinting?

Anyway, I don’t buy the whole notion that one race, including blacks, are athletically superior to another. They simply excel in different sports and there are many sports, many of which require different abilities. As I’ve said over and over again, I live in a majority non-white borough and work with hardly any whites and I’ve dealt with nearly every ethnicity and racial group around.

There are hardly any athletic or muscular people to be found, simply because athletically gifted people are so rare in all groups, including blacks, I believe. I can be wrong.

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Thanks for the reply, by the way.

[quote=“BrickHead, post:634, topic:228119, full:true”]

Then why aren’t there more whites running sub-ten second 100 meter sprints if it’s cheap for blacks and whites? [/quote]

Because blacks from West Africa (also where slaves in the West are originally from) have a lot of the best muscle fibers that are best for sprinting and leaping).

I doubt it. The reason whites dominate hockey is because hockey is primarily played in very cold white countries like Canada, where black people only make up 1% of the population.

But one reason I doubt blacks wouldn’t naturally excel in hockey is because they physically mature faster (they start walking and begin to develop hand eye coordination earlier than whites). This is a huge advantage as it even shows the best hockey players are generally born in the first half of the year as it leads to getting in more reps/games in the sport.

Also remember how I said their lack of buoyancy due to higher bone density which hinders them in swimming? Well as we age we naturally lose bone density but blacks actually lose bone density at slower rate than whites.

Lastly they have higher above average testosterone levels which as you probably know increases aggression, another helpful tool in a sport like hockey.