Bill the Iraqis for War Costs?

Cal Thomas sort of has a realization. The war didn’t pay for itself. Our “allies” aren’t in a rush to bail us out more than they are. And, the war is costing us dearly. His proposal? Charge the Iraqis and Afghans for the cost of invading them.

[i]Since 2001 when “the war on terror” began, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) reports $649.9 billion has been appropriated for Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan). In the budget President Bush just submitted to Congress, there is a request for an additional $108.1 billion for 2008 and $70 billion for 2009.

The cost of these wars has been largely borne by the American taxpayer, while the benefits of success in Iraq and Afghanistan will reach far beyond the borders of those countries to the world. If Islamic extremist can be quelled in Afghanistan and Iraq, people the world over will literally breathe freer. Since so many will benefit, isn’t it fair to ask them to help subsidize the effort?

At a minimum, we should send Iraq and Afghanistan a bill for what we have done and are trying to do for them, or ask for price cuts on Iraqi oil. Thousands of American lives have been lost and the financial cost is enormous, as we seek to advance freedom for others. While a freer world is also in America’s interests, the people of Iraq and Afghanistan stand to benefit the most. To have these and other nations in the region receive what amounts to welfare while charging us top dollar for oil - and using some of those profits to underwrite radical Islamic extremism - is doubly offensive.[/i]

Oh I’m holding my breath on this one…

A ridiculous notion. Those who pay do not always benefit, just as those who benefit do not always pay.

The war has screwed us economically, and we’re just going to have to live with that.

The War should NEVER have been started to begin with…and Iraq is paying enough for it…Yeah, I feel for the soldiers that are coming back in bags but it doesn’t change the fact that it shouldn’t have happened…since everyone was so gung ho to go help the culture to begin with, I hope they plan on paying for the rebuilding and supplying teachers to ‘help’ like the original lie entailed.

Wanna stick an army where it will do some good? Send it to the Congo, theres been more people die there since that war started than Afganastan and Iraq combined…we dont see a huge rush to go help them though.

So NO Iraq should NOT have to pay for any part of the war…they’ve paid enough…their ‘saviors’ should have to pay for rrebuilding

It would be nice if they could pay for it. However in the greater scheme of things I think it is more important right now that we get them up and functioning as an independent nation.

The money that is going into the arms industry is keeping a sizable chunk of our economy running. You should consider that.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
It would be nice if they could pay for it. However in the greater scheme of things I think it is more important right now that we get them up and functioning as an independent nation.

The money that is going into the arms industry is keeping a sizable chunk of our economy running. You should consider that.[/quote]

That money comes from the army. The army’s money comes from the government. Guess where the governments money comes from?

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sifu wrote:
It would be nice if they could pay for it. However in the greater scheme of things I think it is more important right now that we get them up and functioning as an independent nation.

The money that is going into the arms industry is keeping a sizable chunk of our economy running. You should consider that.

That money comes from the army. The army’s money comes from the government. Guess where the governments money comes from?[/quote]

Yes, it is all a circle. That is why the cost of war talk is a bit phony. It is not a zero sum game as many of the libertarian phony economists would have us believe.

I have heard this doom and gloom talk my whole life. The doom and gloomers are almost always wrong.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Sifu wrote:
It would be nice if they could pay for it. However in the greater scheme of things I think it is more important right now that we get them up and functioning as an independent nation.

The money that is going into the arms industry is keeping a sizable chunk of our economy running. You should consider that.

That money comes from the army. The army’s money comes from the government. Guess where the governments money comes from?[/quote]

China and the Sauds?

Assuming the Afghans were willing to pay us, the only way they could would be in kind. This leads to the basic question of what the hell are we supposed to do with 200 billion dollars in heroin? Instead of a tax rebate, will everyone just get a brick of opium from the IRS instead?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cal Thomas sort of has a realization. The war didn’t pay for itself. Our “allies” aren’t in a rush to bail us out more than they are. And, the war is costing us dearly. His proposal? Charge the Iraqis and Afghans for the cost of invading them. [/quote]

The worst of the worse scum on the planet wouldn’t consider it. It’s like somebody beating the crap out of you with a baseball bat (to the extent that you spend a long time in the ICU and come out with a disability) and making you pay for what you did to his sports equipment.

The mere fact that this is debated, and that the Iraqi government isn’t dragging your collective ass in court, speaks volumes about its legitimacy and the extent of Washington’s influence on said government.

But then again, I’m sure the proposal is viable. After all, what are they gonna do about it if you decide to charge them?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Sifu wrote:
It would be nice if they could pay for it. However in the greater scheme of things I think it is more important right now that we get them up and functioning as an independent nation.

The money that is going into the arms industry is keeping a sizable chunk of our economy running. You should consider that.

That money comes from the army. The army’s money comes from the government. Guess where the governments money comes from?

Yes, it is all a circle. That is why the cost of war talk is a bit phony. It is not a zero sum game as many of the libertarian phony economists would have us believe. [/quote]

Whoever said it was a zero sum game?

What part of Beowolf’s statement seemed like “doom and gloom talk” to you?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Sifu wrote:
It would be nice if they could pay for it. However in the greater scheme of things I think it is more important right now that we get them up and functioning as an independent nation.

The money that is going into the arms industry is keeping a sizable chunk of our economy running. You should consider that.

That money comes from the army. The army’s money comes from the government. Guess where the governments money comes from?

Yes, it is all a circle. That is why the cost of war talk is a bit phony. It is not a zero sum game as many of the libertarian phony economists would have us believe.

Whoever said it was a zero sum game?

I have heard this doom and gloom talk my whole life. The doom and gloomers are almost always wrong.

What part of Beowolf’s statement seemed like “doom and gloom talk” to you?[/quote]

This whole thread is based on the doom and gloom crap people are pushing. We do not need the Afghanis or Iraqis to foot the bill for this.

I wouldn’t mind if they paid for Social Security.

The economy (in the modern era) seems to suck during war. Clinton didn’t make our economy boom on his own, he just happened to be in office when we weren’t at war.

It’s not like we won’t bounce back when we’re done. It’s a matter of getting done that’s the problem.

You invaded Iraq, directly and indirectly where responsible for the cause of hundreds of thousands of civilians, you’ve cripplied their economy and destroyed their infrastructure and you want THEM to pay the bill of the aggressor? Jeez, you are an idiot.

It is a sad day that billing the Iraqis for war costs is even being discussed. If anything, the US should pay reparations to the men, women and children of Iraq who’s lives have been torn apart. To the thousands of widows and orphans and to those cast into unemployment, poverty, and sickness as the result of our occupation. A generation is now growing up the chaos inflicted and sustained by the US.

Here’s a summary of our gift to the Iraqi people:

 Loss of a functioning educational system. A 2005 UN study revealed that 84% of the higher education establishments have been "destroyed, damaged and robbed".

 The intellectual stock has been further depleted as many thousands of academics and other professionals have fled abroad or have been mysteriously kidnapped or assassinated in Iraq; hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million, other Iraqis, most of them from the vital, educated middle class, have left for Jordan, Syria or Egypt, many after receiving death threats. "Now I am isolated," said a middle-class Sunni Arab, who decided to leave. "I have no government. I have no protection from the government. Anyone can come to my house, take me, kill me and throw me in the trash."

 Loss of a functioning health care system. And loss of the public's health. Deadly infections including typhoid and tuberculosis are rampaging through the country. Iraq's network of hospitals and health centers, once admired throughout the Middle East, has been severely damaged by the war and looting.

 The UN's World Food Program reported that 400,000 Iraqi children were suffering from "dangerous deficiencies of protein". Deaths from malnutrition and preventable diseases, particularly amongst children, already a problem because of the 12 years of US-imposed sanctions, have increased as poverty and disorder have made access to a proper diet and medicines ever more difficult.

 Thousands of Iraqis have lost an arm or a leg, frequently from unexploded US cluster bombs, which became land mines; cluster bombs are a class of weapons denounced by human rights groups as a cruelly random scourge on civilians, especially children.

 Depleted uranium particles, from exploded US ordnance, float in the Iraqi air, to be breathed into human bodies and to radiate forever, and infect the water, the soil, the blood, the genes, producing malformed babies. During the few weeks of war in spring 2003, A10 "tankbuster" planes, which use munitions containing depleted uranium, fired 300,000 rounds.

 And the use of napalm as well. And white phosphorous.

 The American military has assaulted hospitals to prevent them from giving out casualty figures from US bombing attacks that contradicted official US figures, which the hospitals had been in the habit of doing.

 Numerous homes have been broken into by US forces, the men taken away, the women humiliated, the children traumatized; on many occasions, the family has said that the American soldiers helped themselves to some of the family's money. Iraq has had to submit to a degrading national strip search.

 Destruction and looting of the country's ancient heritage, perhaps the world's greatest archive of the human past, left unprotected by the US military, busy protecting oil facilities.

 A nearly lawless society: Iraq's legal system, outside of the political sphere, was once one of the most impressive and secular in the Middle East; it is now a shambles; religious law more and more prevails.

Women's rights previously enjoyed are now in great and growing danger under harsh Islamic law, to one extent or another in various areas. There is today a Shiite religious ruling class in Iraq, which tolerates physical attacks on women for showing a bare arm or for picnicking with a male friend. Men can be harassed for wearing shorts in public, as can children playing outside in shorts.

 Sex trafficking, virtually nonexistent previously, has become a serious issue.

 Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims have lost much of the security they had enjoyed in Saddam's secular society; many have emigrated.

 A gulag of prisons run by the US and the new Iraqi government feature a wide variety of torture and abuse -- physical, psychological, emotional; painful, degrading, humiliating; leading to mental breakdown, death, suicide; a human-rights disaster area.

 Over 50,000 Iraqis have been imprisoned by US forces since the invasion, but only a very tiny portion of them have been convicted of any crime.

 US authorities have recruited members of Saddam Hussein's feared security service to expand intelligence gathering and root out the resistance.

 Unemployment is estimated to be around fifty percent. Massive layoffs of hundreds of thousands of Baathist government workers and soldiers by the American occupation authority set the process in motion early on. Later, many, desperate for work, took positions tainted by a connection to the occupation, placing themselves in grave danger of being kidnapped or murdered.

 The cost of living has skyrocketed. Income levels have plummeted.

 The Kurds of Northern Iraq evict Arabs from their homes. Arabs evict Kurds in other parts of the country.

 Many people were evicted from their homes because they were Baathist. US troops took part in some of the evictions. They have also demolished homes in fits of rage over the killing of one of their buddies.

 When US troops don't find who they're looking for, they take who's there; wives have been held until the husband turns himself in, a practice which Hollywood films stamped in the American mind as being a particular evil of the Nazis; it's also collective punishment of civilians and is forbidden under the Geneva Convention.

 Continual American bombing assaults on neighborhoods has left an uncountable number of destroyed homes, workplaces, mosques, bridges, roads, and everything else that goes into the making of modern civilized life.

 Haditha, Fallujah, Samarra, Ramadi ... names that will live in infamy for the wanton destruction, murder, and assaults upon human beings and human rights carried out in those places by US forces.

 At one time or another, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been forced to become displaced refugees because their city was made uninhabitable by American air and ground attacks, as in Fallujah.

 The supply of safe drinking water, effective sewage disposal, and reliable electricity have all generally been below pre-invasion levels, producing constant hardship for the public, in temperatures reaching 115 degrees. To add to the misery, people wait all day in the heat to purchase gasoline, due in part to oil production, the country's chief source of revenue, being less than half its previous level.

 The water and sewage system and other elements of the infrastructure had been purposely (sic) destroyed by US bombing in the first Gulf War of 1991. By 2003, the Iraqis had made great strides in repairing the most essential parts of it. Then came Washington's renewed bombing.

 Civil war, death squads, kidnapping, car bombs, rape, each and every day ... Iraq has become the most dangerous place on earth. American soldiers and private security companies regularly kill people and leave the bodies lying in the street; US-trained Iraqi military and police forces kill even more, as does the insurgency. An entire new generation is growing up on violence and sectarian ethics; this will poison the Iraqi psyche for many years to come.

 US intelligence and military police officers often free dangerous criminals in return for a promise to spy on insurgents.

 Iraqis protesting about various issues have been shot by US forces on several occasions.

At other times, the US has killed, wounded and jailed reporters from Al Jazeera television, closed the station's office, bombed the office, and banned it from certain areas because occupation officials didn't like the news the station was reporting. The Al Jazeera office was bombed even though the staff had made a point of giving the US their exact GPS coordinates. Other newspapers as well have been closed for what they have printed.The Pentagon has planted paid-for news articles in the Iraqi press to serve propaganda purposes.

 But freedom has indeed reigned -- for the great multinationals to extract everything they can from Iraq's resources and labor without the hindrance of public interest laws, environmental regulations or worker protections. The orders of the day have been privatization, deregulation, and laissez faire for Halliburton and other Western corporations. Iraqi businesses have been almost entirely shut out though they are not without abilities, as reflected in the infrastructure rebuilding effort following the US bombing of 1991.

Credit: William Blum, 2006

[quote]Gael wrote:
It is a sad day that billing the Iraqis for war costs is even being discussed. If anything, the US should pay reparations to the men, women and children of Iraq who’s lives have been torn apart. To the thousands of widows and orphans and to those cast into unemployment, poverty, and sickness as the result of our occupation. A generation is now growing up the chaos inflicted and sustained by the US.
…[/quote]

Perhaps if Iraq didn’t invade Iran and Kuwait, use WMD’s against its own people, continuously violate the terms of post Gulf War peace treaty, try to assassinate a US president, shoot at US planes, fund and harbor terrorists both before and after 2003 their country would be in a bit better shape.

And since the overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed have been murdered by Iraqis and other fellow Muslims perhaps it is time they take responsibility for their own problems.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
It is a sad day that billing the Iraqis for war costs is even being discussed. If anything, the US should pay reparations to the men, women and children of Iraq who’s lives have been torn apart. To the thousands of widows and orphans and to those cast into unemployment, poverty, and sickness as the result of our occupation. A generation is now growing up the chaos inflicted and sustained by the US.

Perhaps if Iraq didn’t invade Iran and Kuwait, use WMD’s against its own people, continuously violate the terms of post Gulf War peace treaty, try to assassinate a US president, shoot at US planes, fund and harbor terrorists both before and after 2003 their country would be in a bit better shape.

And since the overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed have been murdered by Iraqis and other fellow Muslims perhaps it is time they take responsibility for their own problems.[/quote]

WMDs???
were they even ever found?
seriously
and you see other countries butchering their populations every day but do you see the US rushing is to aid them? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh NO

[quote]dennis3k wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
It is a sad day that billing the Iraqis for war costs is even being discussed. If anything, the US should pay reparations to the men, women and children of Iraq who’s lives have been torn apart. To the thousands of widows and orphans and to those cast into unemployment, poverty, and sickness as the result of our occupation. A generation is now growing up the chaos inflicted and sustained by the US.

Perhaps if Iraq didn’t invade Iran and Kuwait, use WMD’s against its own people, continuously violate the terms of post Gulf War peace treaty, try to assassinate a US president, shoot at US planes, fund and harbor terrorists both before and after 2003 their country would be in a bit better shape.

And since the overwhelming majority of Iraqis killed have been murdered by Iraqis and other fellow Muslims perhaps it is time they take responsibility for their own problems.

WMDs???
were they even ever found?
seriously
and you see other countries butchering their populations every day but do you see the US rushing is to aid them? ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh NO
[/quote]

Saddam killed thousands of Kurds w/ WMD’s.

Do we see countries invading Kuwait and threating Saudi Arabia? Do we see countries trying to assassinate the US president? Do we see countries shooting at our warplanes?

Why do so many people want to pretend that this thing started in 2003?

Iraq was a rogue state intent on causing trouble. There were about a million UN resolutions against them! They were not innocent!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Perhaps if Iraq didn’t invade Iran and Kuwait, use WMD’s against its own people, continuously violate the terms of post Gulf War peace treaty, try to assassinate a US president, shoot at US planes, fund and harbor terrorists both before and after 2003 their country would be in a bit better shape. [/quote]

Perhaps if the Brits didn’t carve up the region, there wouldn’t have a been a Kuwait - where women have about as many rights as my pet - to start with. Perhaps if the US and others didn’t arm and support Saddam in his invasion of Iran, it wouldn’t have happened. Perhaps if the US crew (headed by Rumsfeld) didn’t sell dual-use technology to Saddam, he wouldn’t have been able to gas the Kurds (who incidentally, are directly oppressed and slaughtered by US money in Turkey). Perhaps if your secret service didn’t assassinate and overthrow people on a regular basis, fund and harbor terrorists around the world, you might sound like less of a hypocrite. Perhaps if Iraq was bordering you, you might have legitimately invoked the threat Saddam represented to your nation.