Bill the Iraqis for War Costs?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Perhaps if Iraq didn’t invade Iran and Kuwait, use WMD’s against its own people, continuously violate the terms of post Gulf War peace treaty, try to assassinate a US president, shoot at US planes, fund and harbor terrorists both before and after 2003 their country would be in a bit better shape.

Perhaps if the Brits didn’t carve up the region, there wouldn’t have a been a Kuwait …[/quote]

I agree. The Brits and other European powers fucked up the world royally. That is why it burns me when they pretend they have the fix and try to blame America for all the ills.

Of course the people in Iraq are the ones killing each other so they have more than their share of the blame.

22

Let’s send Chavez the bill, maybe he’ll stop shipping his crap crude.

23

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
It is not a zero sum game as many of the libertarian phony economists would have us believe.
[/quote]

It’s really quite simple: The US government runs a deficit to pay for everything. Try running your family like that and see where it gets you.

The government cannot create wealth. It can only tax or borrow (print). When the government borrows to stimulate growth it must be paid back; what was supposed to be a benefit becomes a cost and it is usually a greater cost once malinvestment is accounted for – thus inflation.

The tendency for malinvestment is much greater with borrowed money. People tend to risk less of their own money.

Central banking is a system that is doomed to fail.

24

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
It is not a zero sum game as many of the libertarian phony economists would have us believe.

It’s really quite simple: The US government runs a deficit to pay for everything. Try running your family like that and see where it gets you.
…[/quote]

The fact that you try to equate the two shows you don’t have a clue.

25

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I agree. The Brits and other European powers fucked up the world royally. [/quote]

And you figured that you deserved your share of fsck-ups?

Look south for examples of how the USA “fucked up the world royally”.

26

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I agree. The Brits and other European powers fucked up the world royally.

And you figured that you deserved your share of fsck-ups?

Look south for examples of how the USA “fucked up the world royally”.[/quote]

Bullshit.

27

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The fact that you try to equate the two shows you don’t have a clue.
[/quote]

???

The fact that you say this without an explanation says everything about your lack of understanding of simple economics.

Debt is Debt. It doesn’t matter who holds it. Eventually, the bills become due. The difference is I don’t care about your debt because it doesn’t affect me but government debt effects everyone with currency devaluation.

History proves I am right. The value of the dollar has slipped 24x since the creation of the Fed because credit has never been reeled in. Inflation, historically, has only occurred during times of extreme govt debt but recovered once the bills were payed. I have shown this phenomena time and time again. Wake up.

28

[quote]lixy wrote:
Perhaps if the Brits didn’t carve up the region, there wouldn’t have a been a Kuwait - where women have about as many rights as my pet - to start with. [/quote]

MARK IT DOWN, LIXY BLAMES SOMEONE BESIDES THE US FOR SOMETHING.

29

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
It is a sad day that billing the Iraqis for war costs is even being discussed. If anything, the US should pay reparations to the men, women and children of Iraq who’s lives have been torn apart. To the thousands of widows and orphans and to those cast into unemployment, poverty, and sickness as the result of our occupation. A generation is now growing up the chaos inflicted and sustained by the US.
…

Perhaps if Iraq didn’t invade Iran and Kuwait, use WMD’s against its own people, continuously violate the terms of post Gulf War peace treaty, try to assassinate a US president, shoot at US planes, fund and harbor terrorists both before and after 2003 their country would be in a bit better shape.[/quote]

What a revealing post. You are saying: “Yes, the country is in a terrible shape, but it’s Iraq’s fault. They brought this punishment on themselves. If they hadn’t done these terrible things, we wouldn’t have come and ‘liberated’ them.”

If that’s not what you’re saying, then you aren’t saying anything at all.

Sentiment like yours was never seen during the height of the “humanitarian mission” rhetoric coming out of the White House. When it became clear that the WMD mongering had no ground on which to stand, America became liberators sending forth the good old boys in the military to rescue the Iraqis and save them from the unspeakable monster Saddam.

Now that it is impossible to defend such a view, America has become punishers. Arbiters of justice. A balancing beacon of morality in a world of evil.

The sheer absurdity grows under consideration that the US has no moral legitimacy on which to stand with such things. With one hand we demand that Iraq comply with UN resolutions while we use the other hand to thumb our nose at the UN for not bowing to our war of aggression.

You condemn Iraq for invading Iran while our own president has spent the last year beating the drums of impending war with Iran under more false pretenses. Talk of an assassination attempt from a nation that has attempted or succeeded in roughly 40 assassination attempts since WW2 is the pinnacle of hypocrisy, or possibly ignorance of foreign policy history.

30

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The fact that you try to equate the two shows you don’t have a clue.

???

The fact that you say this without an explanation says everything about your lack of understanding of simple economics.

Debt is Debt. It doesn’t matter who holds it. Eventually, the bills become due. The difference is I don’t care about your debt because it doesn’t affect me but government debt effects everyone with currency devaluation.

History proves I am right. The value of the dollar has slipped 24x since the creation of the Fed because credit has never been reeled in. Inflation, historically, has only occurred during times of extreme govt debt but recovered once the bills were payed. I have shown this phenomena time and time again. Wake up.[/quote]

And yet Americans have a better standard of living and capital flows freely enough that progress is made at incredible rates.

I know how my debt works and when my bills are due. When is the government supposed to repay its debts? Why do people still lend the government money?

31

[quote]Gael wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Gael wrote:
It is a sad day that billing the Iraqis for war costs is even being discussed. If anything, the US should pay reparations to the men, women and children of Iraq who’s lives have been torn apart. To the thousands of widows and orphans and to those cast into unemployment, poverty, and sickness as the result of our occupation. A generation is now growing up the chaos inflicted and sustained by the US.
…

Perhaps if Iraq didn’t invade Iran and Kuwait, use WMD’s against its own people, continuously violate the terms of post Gulf War peace treaty, try to assassinate a US president, shoot at US planes, fund and harbor terrorists both before and after 2003 their country would be in a bit better shape.

What a revealing post. You are saying: “Yes, the country is in a terrible shape, but it’s Iraq’s fault. They brought this punishment on themselves. If they hadn’t done these terrible things, we wouldn’t have come and ‘liberated’ them.”

…

[/quote]

Welcome to reality. Iraq has been a shithole for decades and has been a danger to the world.

Do you really expect these things to magically stop?

32

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Welcome to reality. Iraq has been a shithole for decades and has been a danger to the world. [/quote]

What danger? What world? At the peak of their power and with the support of the West, Iraq couldn’t even defeat a country that was fresh out of a major revolution that left it totally isolated and without an army officers’ core.

2003’s Iraq was about as helpless as a country can get. Washington, of course, knew that. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have invaded them.

33

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Welcome to reality. Iraq has been a shithole for decades and has been a danger to the world.

What danger? What world? At the peak of their power and with the support of the West, Iraq couldn’t even defeat a country that was fresh out of a major revolution that left it totally isolated and without an army officers’ core.

2003’s Iraq was about as helpless as a country can get. Washington, of course, knew that. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have invaded them.[/quote]

The world that depends on access to energy.

Do you really think there shouldn’t be consequences to Saddam’s actions?

34

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
And yet Americans have a better standard of living…
[/quote]
Yes but at the expense of those who will never get credit. Fractional reserve banking is untenable. It is always inflationary.

Economic growth can only come through increased production. This can only happen by means of saving. Debt is not inherently bad it is bad when there isn’t enough savings to cover it all. Debt must be backed by savings 100% or else it causes inflation.

Ideally, a government should never incur debt because it can only pay it off thru taxation. It could also issue Treasury bills but that requires the savings of the taxpayer which really doesn’t cover anything considering savings rates are too low (thanks to the Fed’s low interest rates).

Unfortunately, we have a system that doesn’t really require the gov’t to apply for loans – they can just get the Fed to print it (expand credit). This money still needs to be paid back – at interest.

The government is constantly paying on the national debt but it is like a marginally employed person with too much available credit that lives outside his means. It uses its credit-card to shop at Whole Foods every other day in stead of living on a budget at Piggly Wiggly. We are constantly told to beware of revolving debt yet this is advice our leaders don’t heed.

Here is an explanation of foreign debt:
http://www.sennholz.com/foreign_debt.html

The American people need to tighten their belts for a little bit and save. Once the the effects of this is felt the financial media will be crying holy hell about lowered spending but it will ultimately lead to capital gains at more stable rates.

The Fed needs to let rates fluctuate naturally and allow the money markets to readjust. This is the only way to stabilize prices. Unfortunately, we are going to have to suffer though the stock market cry babies as businesses readjust to new consumer spending habits.

35

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The fact that you try to equate the two shows you don’t have a clue.

???

The fact that you say this without an explanation says everything about your lack of understanding of simple economics.

Debt is Debt. It doesn’t matter who holds it. Eventually, the bills become due. The difference is I don’t care about your debt because it doesn’t affect me but government debt effects everyone with currency devaluation.

History proves I am right. The value of the dollar has slipped 24x since the creation of the Fed because credit has never been reeled in. Inflation, historically, has only occurred during times of extreme govt debt but recovered once the bills were payed. I have shown this phenomena time and time again. Wake up.

And yet Americans have a better standard of living and capital flows freely enough that progress is made at incredible rates.

I know how my debt works and when my bills are due. When is the government supposed to repay its debts? Why do people still lend the government money?

[/quote]

ALOT of Americans are just plain ignorant of other cultures cant seem to get around their own stereotypes to appreciate anything different…instead they make up some reason, go in invading the country and destroying anything good that might have once been part of said country when that country’s motives differ from their own.

You don’t see them rushing to help other countries in need now do you? But God bless the “saviors” that are attempting to aid Iraq…since it has Oil…oh, and since it had a leader that was willing to speak up against the IDIOT thats in office in the States

36

[quote]dennis3k wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The fact that you try to equate the two shows you don’t have a clue.

???

The fact that you say this without an explanation says everything about your lack of understanding of simple economics.

Debt is Debt. It doesn’t matter who holds it. Eventually, the bills become due. The difference is I don’t care about your debt because it doesn’t affect me but government debt effects everyone with currency devaluation.

History proves I am right. The value of the dollar has slipped 24x since the creation of the Fed because credit has never been reeled in. Inflation, historically, has only occurred during times of extreme govt debt but recovered once the bills were payed. I have shown this phenomena time and time again. Wake up.

And yet Americans have a better standard of living and capital flows freely enough that progress is made at incredible rates.

I know how my debt works and when my bills are due. When is the government supposed to repay its debts? Why do people still lend the government money?

ALOT of Americans are just plain ignorant of other cultures cant seem to get around their own stereotypes to appreciate anything different…instead they make up some reason, go in invading the country and destroying anything good that might have once been part of said country when that country’s motives differ from their own.

You don’t see them rushing to help other countries in need now do you? But God bless the “saviors” that are attempting to aid Iraq…since it has Oil…oh, and since it had a leader that was willing to speak up against the IDIOT thats in office in the States
[/quote]

What the fuck are you rambling amount? Americans are damn generous as hell. We help other cultures all the time.

And protecting the worlds supply of energy from radical assholes is a worthwhile venture. If you think it is not try going without for a month and get back to me.

37

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

What the fuck are you rambling amount? Americans are damn generous as hell. We help other cultures all the time.
[/quote]

If they asked for it or not…

38

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And yet Americans have a better standard of living…

Yes but at the expense of those who will never get credit. Fractional reserve banking is untenable. It is always inflationary.

Economic growth can only come through increased production. This can only happen by means of saving. Debt is not inherently bad it is bad when there isn’t enough savings to cover it all. Debt must be backed by savings 100% or else it causes inflation.

When is the government supposed to repay its debts? Why do people still lend the government money?

Ideally, a government should never incur debt because it can only pay it off thru taxation. It could also issue Treasury bills but that requires the savings of the taxpayer which really doesn’t cover anything considering savings rates are too low (thanks to the Fed’s low interest rates).

Unfortunately, we have a system that doesn’t really require the gov’t to apply for loans – they can just get the Fed to print it (expand credit). This money still needs to be paid back – at interest.

The government is constantly paying on the national debt but it is like a marginally employed person with too much available credit that lives outside his means. It uses its credit-card to shop at Whole Foods every other day in stead of living on a budget at Piggly Wiggly. We are constantly told to beware of revolving debt yet this is advice our leaders don’t heed.

Here is an explanation of foreign debt:
http://www.sennholz.com/foreign_debt.html

The American people need to tighten their belts for a little bit and save. Once the the effects of this is felt the financial media will be crying holy hell about lowered spending but it will ultimately lead to capital gains at more stable rates.

The Fed needs to let rates fluctuate naturally and allow the money markets to readjust. This is the only way to stabilize prices. Unfortunately, we are going to have to suffer though the stock market cry babies as businesses readjust to new consumer spending habits.[/quote]

Did you read and understand the article?

You may say, our children will be able to handle our debt. You may be right! They may follow in our footsteps and load our debt together with their own on their children, in a long sequence of generational debt passage. At the same time they will depreciate the currency and thus reduce the value of the debt. The value may fall at various rates, depending on the choices by the politicians in power. Whatever they may be, do not let the future disturb you. Meet it with knowledge, courage, and entrepreneurial daring; it is yours to win or to lose.

Federal debt is nothing like household debt.

39

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And yet Americans have a better standard of living…

Yes but at the expense of those who will never get credit. Fractional reserve banking is untenable. It is always inflationary.

Economic growth can only come through increased production. This can only happen by means of saving. Debt is not inherently bad it is bad when there isn’t enough savings to cover it all. Debt must be backed by savings 100% or else it causes inflation.

When is the government supposed to repay its debts? Why do people still lend the government money?

Ideally, a government should never incur debt because it can only pay it off thru taxation. It could also issue Treasury bills but that requires the savings of the taxpayer which really doesn’t cover anything considering savings rates are too low (thanks to the Fed’s low interest rates).

Unfortunately, we have a system that doesn’t really require the gov’t to apply for loans – they can just get the Fed to print it (expand credit). This money still needs to be paid back – at interest.

The government is constantly paying on the national debt but it is like a marginally employed person with too much available credit that lives outside his means. It uses its credit-card to shop at Whole Foods every other day in stead of living on a budget at Piggly Wiggly. We are constantly told to beware of revolving debt yet this is advice our leaders don’t heed.

Here is an explanation of foreign debt:
http://www.sennholz.com/foreign_debt.html

The American people need to tighten their belts for a little bit and save. Once the the effects of this is felt the financial media will be crying holy hell about lowered spending but it will ultimately lead to capital gains at more stable rates.

The Fed needs to let rates fluctuate naturally and allow the money markets to readjust. This is the only way to stabilize prices. Unfortunately, we are going to have to suffer though the stock market cry babies as businesses readjust to new consumer spending habits.

Did you read and understand the article?

You may say, our children will be able to handle our debt. You may be right! They may follow in our footsteps and load our debt together with their own on their children, in a long sequence of generational debt passage. At the same time they will depreciate the currency and thus reduce the value of the debt. The value may fall at various rates, depending on the choices by the politicians in power. Whatever they may be, do not let the future disturb you. Meet it with knowledge, courage, and entrepreneurial daring; it is yours to win or to lose.

Federal debt is nothing like household debt.[/quote]

Does he cite any historical example where that worked for more than a few decades?

40

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And yet Americans have a better standard of living…

Yes but at the expense of those who will never get credit. Fractional reserve banking is untenable. It is always inflationary.

Economic growth can only come through increased production. This can only happen by means of saving. Debt is not inherently bad it is bad when there isn’t enough savings to cover it all. Debt must be backed by savings 100% or else it causes inflation.

When is the government supposed to repay its debts? Why do people still lend the government money?

Ideally, a government should never incur debt because it can only pay it off thru taxation. It could also issue Treasury bills but that requires the savings of the taxpayer which really doesn’t cover anything considering savings rates are too low (thanks to the Fed’s low interest rates).

Unfortunately, we have a system that doesn’t really require the gov’t to apply for loans – they can just get the Fed to print it (expand credit). This money still needs to be paid back – at interest.

The government is constantly paying on the national debt but it is like a marginally employed person with too much available credit that lives outside his means. It uses its credit-card to shop at Whole Foods every other day in stead of living on a budget at Piggly Wiggly. We are constantly told to beware of revolving debt yet this is advice our leaders don’t heed.

Here is an explanation of foreign debt:
http://www.sennholz.com/foreign_debt.html

The American people need to tighten their belts for a little bit and save. Once the the effects of this is felt the financial media will be crying holy hell about lowered spending but it will ultimately lead to capital gains at more stable rates.

The Fed needs to let rates fluctuate naturally and allow the money markets to readjust. This is the only way to stabilize prices. Unfortunately, we are going to have to suffer though the stock market cry babies as businesses readjust to new consumer spending habits.

Did you read and understand the article?

You may say, our children will be able to handle our debt. You may be right! They may follow in our footsteps and load our debt together with their own on their children, in a long sequence of generational debt passage. At the same time they will depreciate the currency and thus reduce the value of the debt. The value may fall at various rates, depending on the choices by the politicians in power. Whatever they may be, do not let the future disturb you. Meet it with knowledge, courage, and entrepreneurial daring; it is yours to win or to lose.

Federal debt is nothing like household debt.[/quote]

Yes, I did. You didn’t. The only way the debt is reduced is because the total value is deprecated due to dollar devaluation. This still does not cure the main problems of having to pay it back and of inflation in general. So, by your logic we could reduce the debt to zero by making money completely worthless. That is not what he is arguing.

The point is that whatever one chooses to do there will still be risk that government cannot manage so live like you normally would and don’t pay any attention to financial media. You know your own finances and that is the only frame of references anyone has. PERIOD.