Bill Kaz on Raw Lifting

Training Powerlifting
21

GEAR, GEAR…Kaz is right. Gear is cheating- have you ever seen someone blow a squat suit or bench shirt? they never get the weight- proving that the gear allows them to exceed their natural max(or real max)

I lift in single ply poly-IPF legal, and even as minimal as that is, my squat suit gives me 60 lbs squatting and 40 lbs deadlifting, the bench shirt gives me about 40 lbs as well, thats 140 lbs total over what “I can really do”

AND FOR ALL YOU " GEAR PREVENTS INJURY" THAT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT, I see people squat 250lbs over what they can really squat because of their DOUBLE DEMIN SUIT, or bench 180 lbs over their real max- How is that safe? you are going way past what you body can actually handle.
We all started working out RAW, thats what we based our numbers on, I have found that a 700lb bench is impressive, and if your competitors are allowed to wear the same gear- then good job.
Most guys who like gear, just would rather think that they bench more, or total more, they actually dont, but the magic suit or magic shirt is a lot easier than hardcore training and dieting.
Gear is the reason that Powerlifting is NOT in the OLYMPICS, but curling with that little stupid thing on the ice is , as well as ping pong(they wear wrist wraps)

22

[quote]moonjumper wrote:

I lift in single ply poly-IPF legal, and even as minimal as that is, my squat suit gives me 60 lbs squatting and 40 lbs deadlifting, the bench shirt gives me about 40 lbs as well, thats 140 lbs total over what “I can really do”[/quote]

If you dislike gear so much, lift in the aau, or 100% raw. IPF-legal feds aren’t raw

I agree with this 100% gear does seem to reduce pec tears, but dumping weight was not (i think) an issue pre gear.

[quote]
I see people squat 250lbs over what they can really squat because of their DOUBLE DEMIN SUIT, or bench 180 lbs over their real max- How is that safe? [/quote]
you want safe? Sit on your couch

agreed

harcore training and gear use are NOT mutually exclusive. Indeed, they often go hand in hand. Whats the first thing geared lifters toss out of their training cycle when the need to deload? teh gear.

[quote]
Gear is the reason that Powerlifting is NOT in the OLYMPICS, but curling with that little stupid thing on the ice is , as well as ping pong(they wear wrist wraps)[/quote]

I really dont understand this obsession that people seem to have with powerlifting being in the olympics. I’m genuinely curious as to why people want the external validation of the ioc - an institution which is, for the record, one of the most corrupt and “political” (in the perjorative sense of the word, with backroom deals, etc) organizations on the face of the earth. Their sanctimonious stance on drug use combined with their willful ignorance of most competitors usage is a joke.

23

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
mattwray wrote:
I don’t consider wraps or a belt as “aid”. They are for safety. I can full squat more without a belt than with.

I have tiny-ass wrists, like 6 1/2 in around. There is nothing you can do to make it bigger except wear a wrap. Add enough weight without a wrap and eventually that tiny wrist will break.

My .02 but I’m a cheater so who cares.

I am fascinated by this. You full squat less without a belt? Really? Do you have any ideas as to why? I think I remember your old avatar was you squatting at a meet, right? So presumably youre a competitive PL and you know how to use your belt, so its not that. Is it a fleixbility issue, like the belt adds too much to your waistline, which pushs your hips away from your knees? I’m shocked, I wouldnt have thought anyone would squat LESS with a belt. Indeed, I just posted recently ripping supposed “raw” lifters who denigrate equipment and then strap on a belt in the name of “safety” and to add a few pounds. But clearly adding pounds isnt the case for you. I’d liek to hear more as to why you think your belt doesnt help.

i hope the tone of this post doesnt come off as sarcastic, i am just genuinely SHOCKED that your belt seems to LOWER your lift. [/quote]

It hurts me on full squats, not power squats. When I get deep enough to set my hams on my calves the belt almost goes up under my ribs. It detracts in a painful way as I cannot go deep enough with it on for a full squat.

Now when I gear up and move my stance out, I definitely wear a belt. Helps me brace my abs. That said, I still count it as safety equipment, not “gear” like a suit or shirt.

I don’t know if that makes sense, but that is what it is.

24

[quote]Pinto wrote:
Why is it so important that those outside the sport take it seriously? Who in the hell does it have to be redeemed for? And do we honestly care what the IOC and ESPN think? [/quote]

good question, as far as I am concerned I don’t personally give a flying fuck what the general public, or anyone else, thinks.

I do it for myself and because I enjoy it.

25

[quote]Miserere wrote:
TTewell342 wrote:
Oh wow. NERB isn’t allowing wrist wraps, or knee wraps? I hadn’t heard that. I don’t know if I can max even “raw” with no wrist wraps…

Here’s a stupid question from a non-powerlifter (i.e., me):

Why don’t you strengthen all those little stablising muscles around your knees and wrists in order to not require wraps? Wouldn’t the need for wraps be telling you that you have muscle imbalances…?

Don’t take this the wrong way, I’m not trying to pick a fight, but if a lift is raw, then it means it should be performed completely without aid.[/quote]

Well, there’s only so much you can do. I mean, in most PL and strongman competitor training, a majority of it is already done raw and then either a limited amount is protected/suited, or one starts using the suit weeks out from the comp. to get a “feel” for the groove.

Besides, unlike getting out of the groove with “normal” athletic loading requirements (meaning submaximal. Or even maximal, since an athlete’s max strength requirements are not generally the primary focus of a training program. Depends on the athlete of course), you don’t have much of a muscle strength or tendon strength reserve to save yourself. You figure that a top PL guy is pushing all out with almost all his LBM and tendon strength. If something goes wrong, well…

Also, even olympic weightlifters are encouraged to used wrist wraps when performing higher rep work in the overhead lifts. It saves wear and tear on your tendons.

Even Eric Cressey and Mike Robertson use belts/wraps, and if anyone knows about training balace and stabillization of musculature, they should.

I think that at some level, they become basic protective measures that should probably be used. I don’t feel that I’m at that level, but I do think that it may exist.

Just my 2 cents.

26

[quote]moonjumper wrote:
GEAR, GEAR…Kaz is right. Gear is cheating- have you ever seen someone blow a squat suit or bench shirt? they never get the weight- proving that the gear allows them to exceed their natural max(or real max)

I lift in single ply poly-IPF legal, and even as minimal as that is, my squat suit gives me 60 lbs squatting and 40 lbs deadlifting, the bench shirt gives me about 40 lbs as well, thats 140 lbs total over what “I can really do”

AND FOR ALL YOU " GEAR PREVENTS INJURY" THAT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT, I see people squat 250lbs over what they can really squat because of their DOUBLE DEMIN SUIT, or bench 180 lbs over their real max- How is that safe? you are going way past what you body can actually handle.
We all started working out RAW, thats what we based our numbers on, I have found that a 700lb bench is impressive, and if your competitors are allowed to wear the same gear- then good job.
Most guys who like gear, just would rather think that they bench more, or total more, they actually dont, but the magic suit or magic shirt is a lot easier than hardcore training and dieting.
Gear is the reason that Powerlifting is NOT in the OLYMPICS, but curling with that little stupid thing on the ice is , as well as ping pong(they wear wrist wraps)[/quote]

Aren’t you the guy who said he was going to place top 3 in the '98’s at USAPL Nationals this year? Which, BTW, is a pretty bold statement. Lots of luck.

If gear is cheating, why don’t you compete at Nationals RAW?

Then you can show everybody “what you can really do.”

You probably won’t place, but hey, at least you will have a good excuse and can then call everybody else “cheaters.”

That should be satisfying.

27

[quote]moonjumper wrote:
GEAR, GEAR…Kaz is right. Gear is cheating-
[/quote]

by definition, if using gear is within the rules, it’s not cheating…

yes…

the more advanced modern gear is used to exceed ‘real’ max(not for protection)…

that’s all you’re getting? are you using an old blast shirt and champion shit?

I’ve personally seen guys get 200 lbs over their gearless bench in an IPF legal single ply bench shirt…

with the new ‘super material’ suits and shirts, the line between single and double ply has been blurred considerably…

it could be argued that the old school equipment (blast shirts, champion suits, knee wraps, belt, wrist wraps) can help to prevent injury…they add stabilization with out greatly inflating numbers over a gearless max…

I know when I bench with my old HD blast shirt (that I’ve worn hundreds of times in training) my shoulders are much less beat up and I lift no more than 20 lbs over my gearless max with it…

agreed…

but the new super single ply equipment also allows lifters to use WAY more weight than they could without it also…shit, you’d have to wear three or four old blast shirts on top of each other to get the same spring as a new single ply rage-x (or other like) shirt…

people wear the gear because they want to win (or at least be competitive)…the old ‘don’t show up to a gun fight with only a knife’ line of reasoning (keeping up with the Jones’s)…

the top guys train very hard regardless of gear…

I doubt gear it’s the only reason that powerlifting is not in the olympics (although I’m sure that is part of the reason)…

it might (I speculate) have something to do with all the drug usage that surrounds the sport…the olympics already has a strength sport (weightlifting)…and IOC ($$$) politics…

ulimately, I don’t give a shit about the olympics anyways. So the fact that powerlifting is not included in all the IOC reindeer games doesn’t bother me a bit…

anyways…people should lift were they want and how they want…have fun (that’s what it should be about to me personally)…

if someone wants to lift with zero gear then do it…

if some goofballs want to start a ‘powerlifting’ organization that allows hydrolic jack squats it’s no skin off my nose…

28

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

I really dont understand this obsession that people seem to have with powerlifting being in the olympics. I’m genuinely curious as to why people want the external validation of the ioc - an institution which is, for the record, one of the most corrupt and “political” (in the perjorative sense of the word, with backroom deals, etc) organizations on the face of the earth. Their sanctimonious stance on drug use combined with their willful ignorance of most competitors usage is a joke.

[/quote]

Good point. And I tend to think that with the already huge drug issues in Olympic sports, adding another sport in which steroids etc. are extremely prevalent just isn’t going to happen.

But from what I know about it, Kaz (if that is him) has a point in gear holding back powerlifting’s popularity and confining it to cult sport status. Whether this matters is another question.

29

I do lift raw!!! the only reason that I compete in USAPL is that they are VERY STRICT with judging and allow the LEAST supportive gear.
I know about AAU and 100%RAW —but there are no meets, EVER. I live in South Florida and the are never raw meets here, so I chose the best federation for me.
I know that gear is here to stay, just like penis extensions, they make men think that they are more than they really are.
Once again if you use gear/drugs thats OK just compete against others using the same.
May you all get stronger and healthier.

30

Let me get this right…powerlifting right now is a backyard circus act and is looked down upon by the public.

Hmmm…and getting rid of the assistance gear and continuing the excessive steroid use will make the sport respectable again??? Kaz was/is a walking chemistry experiment. But anabolics aren’t considered PL gear??? Please. I do take drugs when I compete and I do use gear in most meets where I am competing against others that do.

I cannot say I disagree with what Kaz is saying…but if the gear and drugs go then ok. That will never happen.

31

Penis extensions? Hell yeah- count me in!! That way I can have big donkey-schlong package to show off in my double-ply cheating suit. But seriously, with single ply gear getting so good (and single-ply fed lifters getting a lot smarter on how to get the most out of it). I wonder how much more carryover most lifters get out of unlimited gear vs. IPF/USAPL legal gear. Many are getting 100-150 lbs out of very tight, jacked-up single ply RageXs and F6s, ditto on the suits as well. Except for some bench specialists, I doubt many lifters are gettng much more than that out of a Karins or a double Rage.

[quote]moonjumper wrote:
I do lift raw!!! the only reason that I compete in USAPL is that they are VERY STRICT with judging and allow the LEAST supportive gear.
I know about AAU and 100%RAW —but there are no meets, EVER. I live in South Florida and the are never raw meets here, so I chose the best federation for me.
I know that gear is here to stay, just like penis extensions, they make men think that they are more than they really are.
Once again if you use gear/drugs thats OK just compete against others using the same.
May you all get stronger and healthier.[/quote]

32

[quote]moonjumper wrote:
I do lift raw!!! the only reason that I compete in USAPL is that they are VERY STRICT with judging and allow the LEAST supportive gear.
I know about AAU and 100%RAW —but there are no meets, EVER. I live in South Florida and the are never raw meets here, so I chose the best federation for me.[/quote]

Have you seen this thread I started?

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1010697

This one’s going to be in Orlando in August.

I’m really trying to go, but I’ll have to see if I’ll be able to afford it at the time (hopefully).

Anyway, sorry for the hijack. I personally prefer RAW meets, but I only get about 30lbs out of a shirt that I’ve seen people get 150lbs from so I’m much more competitive in RAW meets.

I also understand why people use gear and I think the sponsors (companies making the gear) are the ones to blame for it getting out of hand.

33

CONGRATS on the penis extension, I heard that Scott Mendelson is thinking of getting a boob job to decrease BAR TRAVEL.
You are absolutely right about the gear, I have a z-suit and HD blast shirt and a loose hardcore suit and Rage shirt which are incredibly loose and DONT give me shit, thats what my training partners allows bitch about.
After doing the Nationals this year, I will probably lift RAW, I dont like gear OR the fact that I know that I REALLY didn’t do the weight myself.

The other day, I helped some lifter get out of his DEMIN squat suit. Me and 3 other big strong dudes took 15 minutes, a metal prybar and 2 gallons of sweat to get him out of it,while this dude talks of squatting 700 the next meet and cant RAW SQ 475, at that time I realized that gear is total bullshit.
Not trying to start any pissing matches just stating MY opinion.

[quote]Pinto wrote:
Penis extensions? Hell yeah- count me in!! That way I can have big donkey-schlong package to show off in my double-ply cheating suit. But seriously, with single ply gear getting so good (and single-ply fed lifters getting a lot smarter on how to get the most out of it). I wonder how much more carryover most lifters get out of unlimited gear vs. IPF/USAPL legal gear. Many are getting 100-150 lbs out of very tight, jacked-up single ply RageXs and F6s, ditto on the suits as well. Except for some bench specialists, I doubt many lifters are gettng much more than that out of a Karins or a double Rage.

moonjumper wrote:
I do lift raw!!! the only reason that I compete in USAPL is that they are VERY STRICT with judging and allow the LEAST supportive gear.
I know about AAU and 100%RAW —but there are no meets, EVER. I live in South Florida and the are never raw meets here, so I chose the best federation for me.
I know that gear is here to stay, just like penis extensions, they make men think that they are more than they really are.
Once again if you use gear/drugs thats OK just compete against others using the same.
May you all get stronger and healthier.

[/quote]

34

[quote]moonjumper wrote:
CONGRATS on the penis extension, I heard that Scott Mendelson is thinking of getting a boob job to decrease BAR TRAVEL.
You are absolutely right about the gear, I have a z-suit and HD blast shirt and a loose hardcore suit and Rage shirt which are incredibly loose and DONT give me shit, thats what my training partners allows bitch about.
After doing the Nationals this year, I will probably lift RAW, I dont like gear OR the fact that I know that I REALLY didn’t do the weight myself.

The other day, I helped some lifter get out of his DEMIN squat suit. Me and 3 other big strong dudes took 15 minutes, a metal prybar and 2 gallons of sweat to get him out of it,while this dude talks of squatting 700 the next meet and cant RAW SQ 475, at that time I realized that gear is total bullshit.
Not trying to start any pissing matches just stating MY opinion.

Pinto wrote:
Penis extensions? Hell yeah- count me in!! That way I can have big donkey-schlong package to show off in my double-ply cheating suit. But seriously, with single ply gear getting so good (and single-ply fed lifters getting a lot smarter on how to get the most out of it). I wonder how much more carryover most lifters get out of unlimited gear vs. IPF/USAPL legal gear. Many are getting 100-150 lbs out of very tight, jacked-up single ply RageXs and F6s, ditto on the suits as well. Except for some bench specialists, I doubt many lifters are gettng much more than that out of a Karins or a double Rage.

moonjumper wrote:
I do lift raw!!! the only reason that I compete in USAPL is that they are VERY STRICT with judging and allow the LEAST supportive gear.
I know about AAU and 100%RAW —but there are no meets, EVER. I live in South Florida and the are never raw meets here, so I chose the best federation for me.
I know that gear is here to stay, just like penis extensions, they make men think that they are more than they really are.
Once again if you use gear/drugs thats OK just compete against others using the same.
May you all get stronger and healthier.

[/quote]

Ya know, dude, I really don’t get your point.

You banter on about lifting USAPL because of the standards, you compare your lifts to others (even “little people”), and you seem to have no problems with calling yourself a powerlifter as long as it is all about you. Apparently nobody else can live up to your impossibly high standards.

We lift exclusively USAPL, direct meets, and coach HS lifters.

I live in the same town as several big time USAPL lifters who are the largest proponents of raw 5x5 squat training on the planet, and guess what?

They train to be as strong as possible raw, and then put on the gear and bring it to meets. That’s what the majority of us do. Lift to be as strong as possible raw, and then learn the gear and bring it to meets.

So, in other words, WOW, what a concept. Raw training and strength outside of gear. I can assure you that you don’t have the market cornered on this concept.

Frankly, I see no merit in your posts. When I hear a guy like you bragging about how little you get out of your gear, and taking pride in how outdated the stuff you are using is, I think , “what a dumbass.”

Either embrace the competitive environment you are in, or move on.

I can assure you your self-righteousness won’t be missed.

35

OH NO!!!you dont like me…thats OK you’re probably a great guy, Yes my gear is loose but it still helps me so YES it is allowing me to lift more than I actually can.

Have your seen the IPF VIKING gear- this stuff is stronger than demin and its allowed in IPF???

“what a dumbass” that one is great. When a little kid asks you what you bench you immediately spew out your meet PR, BUT you dont explain that the magic shirt actuallt got 20% of the lift for you,
because he doesnt know what a shirt is, he’s talking about REAL strength. tell him about Mendelson who actually benches WHAT? 715 no shirt, 1015 with shirt- catch on and dont let Inzer brainwash you.

All this gear bullshit, after the nationals I will only do RAW meets.
YES it is all about me, and you should think the same.
Glad to see that you helping kids, thats great, keep up the good work.

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
moonjumper wrote:
CONGRATS on the penis extension, I heard that Scott Mendelson is thinking of getting a boob job to decrease BAR TRAVEL.
You are absolutely right about the gear, I have a z-suit and HD blast shirt and a loose hardcore suit and Rage shirt which are incredibly loose and DONT give me shit, thats what my training partners allows bitch about.
After doing the Nationals this year, I will probably lift RAW, I dont like gear OR the fact that I know that I REALLY didn’t do the weight myself.

The other day, I helped some lifter get out of his DEMIN squat suit. Me and 3 other big strong dudes took 15 minutes, a metal prybar and 2 gallons of sweat to get him out of it,while this dude talks of squatting 700 the next meet and cant RAW SQ 475, at that time I realized that gear is total bullshit.
Not trying to start any pissing matches just stating MY opinion.

Pinto wrote:
Penis extensions? Hell yeah- count me in!! That way I can have big donkey-schlong package to show off in my double-ply cheating suit. But seriously, with single ply gear getting so good (and single-ply fed lifters getting a lot smarter on how to get the most out of it). I wonder how much more carryover most lifters get out of unlimited gear vs. IPF/USAPL legal gear. Many are getting 100-150 lbs out of very tight, jacked-up single ply RageXs and F6s, ditto on the suits as well. Except for some bench specialists, I doubt many lifters are gettng much more than that out of a Karins or a double Rage.

moonjumper wrote:
I do lift raw!!! the only reason that I compete in USAPL is that they are VERY STRICT with judging and allow the LEAST supportive gear.
I know about AAU and 100%RAW —but there are no meets, EVER. I live in South Florida and the are never raw meets here, so I chose the best federation for me.
I know that gear is here to stay, just like penis extensions, they make men think that they are more than they really are.
Once again if you use gear/drugs thats OK just compete against others using the same.
May you all get stronger and healthier.

Ya know, dude, I really don’t get your point.

You banter on about lifting USAPL because of the standards, you compare your lifts to others (even “little people”), and you seem to have no problems with calling yourself a powerlifter as long as it is all about you. Apparently nobody else can live up to your impossibly high standards.

We lift exclusively USAPL, direct meets, and coach HS lifters.

I live in the same town as several big time USAPL lifters who are the largest proponents of raw 5x5 squat training on the planet, and guess what?

They train to be as strong as possible raw, and then put on the gear and bring it to meets. That’s what the majority of us do. Lift to be as strong as possible raw, and then learn the gear and bring it to meets.

So, in other words, WOW, what a concept. Raw training and strength outside of gear. I can assure you that you don’t have the market cornered on this concept.

Frankly, I see no merit in your posts. When I hear a guy like you bragging about how little you get out of your gear, and taking pride in how outdated the stuff you are using is, I think , “what a dumbass.”

Either embrace the competitive environment you are in, or move on.

I can assure you your self-righteousness won’t be missed.[/quote]

36

I don’t know you so I can’t state if I like you or not. The internet provides a huge gap.

Believe me, I have had serious disagreements with guys, lived through it, and now consider them friends.

That’s life.

The point I am trying to make is that I try to represent the sport in a positive light, not complain about things I have little control over.

If you want to pick on bench shirts, yes, they are out of hand. I know very few lifters, elite and otherwise, that would not voice the same opinion.

However, it is what it is. You either learn to lift well in them or get left behind. It’s really is that simple.

In regards to your comment about me telling, “a little kid” what I can bench, it depends on the context.

My initial response is, “not enough.” If pressed, which rarely happens, I may explain the difference b/t a comp lift and a raw lift. It really depends on their level of interest and if I think it is worth discussing I have nothing to hide, and actually avoid conversations like that big time.

It’s not an ego thing for me.

It’s a competitive thing.

There is a big fucking difference, my friend.

37

[quote]moonjumper wrote:
but the magic suit or magic shirt is a lot easier than hardcore training and dieting.
[/quote]

This is ridiculous. I lift with a lot of geared powerlifters and have lifted in gear myself. If anything, using more advanced gear is much more “hardcore” than lifting raw. I have nearly thrown up several times from shirted bench workouts…they’re much more taxing than any raw workout I’ve ever had. Trust me, a lot of the guys that lift in gear work at least as hard as the raw guys…the gear lets them do it more often than not.

No, the complete inability of powerlifting to organize itself was the problem originally, and now gear has NOTHING to do with Olympic acceptance, nothing. If you haven’t noticed, the Olympics are dropping sports currently, not adding them. I’m sorry, but if baseball is getting dropped, powerlifting is centuries away.

38

A couple of other things.

I believe others corroborated that the initial post was, in fact, made by Kaz.

The NERBs allow wrist wraps, a belt, and knee sleeves. I can’t remember if that ever got answered on this abortion of a thread.

If you’re completely dismissive of equipment (using words like magic shirt, bullshit, not lifting the weight on your own, etc.), it’s pretty obvious to about any geared lifter that you have zero clue as to what is going on with gear. That’s fine; we can’t hold ignorance against you.

I use the “not enough” answer to those inquiring about my bench as well. I will also just say “135”, because it is completely true that I can bench 135lbs. Sure, I can bench a lot more than that, but it is still true. If they press for more, I will size up their interest and knowledge level and give them an appropriate answer. Typically they’re thinking of a raw bench, so that’s what I tell them.

39

From an outsider’s point of view (who cares, I know):

Gear adds a whole other ‘skill’ factor to the big three. Fuck, anybody can lift a damn bar on their back, but mastering gear is the skill transfer.

Using gear should be embraced. Competitors should lift RAW and with gear so that people can see how skilled they are, not just how strong.

Powerlifting records are bullshit because they don’t acknowledge gear use. ‘I squat 800, bench 400, deadlift 700’ doesn’t accurately reflect the fact that I used double ply denim or whatever.

The solution is to be able to competitively test RAW lifting AND gear lifting (and have lifting records reflect the dichotomy). Unfortunately, you cannot go max effort on both styles in a single day.

40

[quote]oboffill wrote:
From an outsider’s point of view (who cares, I know):

Gear adds a whole other ‘skill’ factor to the big three. Fuck, anybody can lift a damn bar on their back, but mastering gear is the skill transfer.

Using gear should be embraced. Competitors should lift RAW and with gear so that people can see how skilled they are, not just how strong.
[/quote]

my sentiments exactly