Big Guys... Horrid Lifting

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I think alot of us are missing the big picture and this is true of all of us at one point or another. There is no gospel when it comes to so called “exercise science”. If there was a true “right” and “wrong” way, we’d have one basic training protocol and variations thereof. Instead what do we have? Many protocols, each with its own adherents and converts, many with “science” behind it.

There simply is no “best” way to train. “Better”, perhaps, in some cases. But the human body is too varied, too adaptable, to put a “bead” on the perfect training regimen.

In addition, “perfect” training, or even “better” training is a moot point for most individuals because you will always be limited by your genetics. If you don’t have the genetics for an 18" arm (for example) or greater, it doesn’t matter how you train - you won’t achieve it. Same with strength. When considering genetics, you must consider muscle fiber type, attachment points, leverages, your immune system, etc etc - all of which you have no control over. Its why some guys can train in a so-called unconventional manner and still achieve great results and why other guys can train with the “latest cutting edge science”, taking thier suppls, getting rest, doing everything “perfect” and still only make moderate, if any, progress.

No training methodology will overcome who your parents were!!! So, I guess my point is this; in the grand scheme of things, for the average trainee, do you think one training protocol over another makes an appreciable difference? I don’t think so. Now, I’m talking generally accepted practices, not someone who just doesn’t know what their doing - out there in left field somewhere, but someone “in the ballpark” of generally accepted training principles so to speak.

I hear all the time, bla bla bla, about someone training for years, switched to this system, and this lift or that lift skyrocketed. Fine. Maybe so. But it wouldn’t have happened if your genetics weren’t there. Same with size gains. Factor in all the other folks that switched to various systems and made little or no progress and you’re right back to my point.

Unless you are an elite athlete, I think the most important thing you can do is just train and be consistent. For most folks, you will never have 18" arms let alone 20". You will never bench 400 let alone 300 and I don’t care whether you train WSB, superslow, superfast, on a swiss ball with a kettlebell strapped to your forehead - I don’t think it makes a big difference to the results of the “average” trainee.

Now I’m not trying to say anything is not possible, but realistically, most trainees are not elite athletes, are not trying to compete in strength events or even bodybuilding events. They want to look good and be healthy and fact is, there are many acceptable ways to achieve it. I do believe many things are achievable with hard work and knowledge, but you’re still ultimately limited by genetics.

Oh, by the way, caught an earlier thread about the “average man”. Seems to be a big aversion to “average man”. No one wants to be average. NEWSFLASH; I assure you, guarantee you, most of you here are genetically average. Thats not a slight to anyone, but a fact of life. You may be more physically fit than “average man”, but genetically, most of you are average.

So, isn’t the discussion somewhat academic? For most of you, the micro management of your training regimen will not make an appreciable difference. EVERYTHING works. Put a workload on the body and the body will respond. Just keep it fresh. How much you respond will always be limited to your genetics - under ANY training system or methodology - even if you’re on the great vitamin S.

Maybe harsh, maybe a little off the main topic, but the truth nonetheless. My two cents, however awkwardly expressed :slight_smile:

Steve[/quote]

What a crock of shit
So few max their potential, how the hell do you know what average is. Yes, few have the potential for elite bb status, but the rest of your post is garbage.

82

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If I even had to give it a rating, I would put your work ethic at having around 80% of the influence as far as your progress in the gym. The rest is based on application of knowledge learned. Hard work can make up for a less than perfect training routine. [/quote]

Too true and it applies not just in bodybuilding either. Think about going to school and then taking that shiny new knowledge out into the working world to give it a run… you soon come to discover that while the knowledge gives you a great base, you learn at least 80% (probably more) through the actual doing. For me, law school vs. the practice of law were two very different animals (just as I am sure that med school and being a doctor were two entirely different things for the Prof).

I love the training articles on this site, but I always find myself tweaking them to work better to how I respond and I think you would be hard-pressed to find any of the authores on this site disagreeing with that approach. I love the articles on here by Chad, Thibs, Dan John, Staley, etc… but they would like at you like a freak if you did not change up their program if it was not working at all for you.

Kuz

83

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
danmaftei wrote:
What do you think constitutes as hard work? I go to the gym regularly (I never pussy out of a workout), I concentrate on my goals and I don’t fuck around with friends, and when I lift, I concentrate on lifting the weight and lifting the weight only. The only reason I don’t mention always lifting heavy is because I’m new and first of all, I don’t know what my threshold is, and second of all, since I’m doing “dangerous” lifts, I’m focusing on form. That’s not to say I use very light weights, but you get the point.

Do you have another view of “work ethic”?

You’re a ‘new’ lifter with great work ethic who only lifts the ‘dangerous’ lifts!

Me thinks he doth(?) protest too much

Quit arguing about garbage and go lift
Though I’d skip the ‘dangerous’ lifts and stick to the heavy basics–especially as a ‘new’ lifter
You’ve used up way to much space and actually said nothing.[/quote]

Ugh, I’m kinda getting sick of this.

I’m simply asking for the sake of getting an answer, I’m not protesting shit. I lift big compound lifts, I train the way I think my body best needs it, and I don’t pussy out of a workout or pussy out of working hard. What the hell were you looking for?

People piss me off.

84

dan

If you were asking for the sake of asking, you wouldn’t put up such a pussfest with every answer. You want to hear a certain answer and you aren’;t getting it so you keep rearranging the words hoping we agree with you.
Plain and simple everything works and nothing works. It’s the application, anzlyzing results, applying those to a new appplication, …
Now please, let’s end this verbal sparring over what is the best way to lift.
Besides that, it means almost nothing without the nutrition variable thrown in.
Peace

85

The only “pussy” answers I’m giving are responses to those who don’t understand what my point was. Look at all my posts in this thread. I’m not looking for the best program. I’ve got a program, and I’m sticking to it. I haven’t even read every post on this thread. I’m just interested in people’s ideas on this.

Give me quotes that I said that make you believe that I’m doing this to search for some certain asnwer. I don’t even know what the hell you’re talking about, tell me, what AM I looking for?

86

[quote]sasquatch wrote:

What a crock of shit
So few max their potential, how the hell do you know what average is. Yes, few have the potential for elite bb status, but the rest of your post is garbage.[/quote]

I agree. If someone enters into bodybuilding already believing from the beginning that their potential is extremely limited, they will never reach their potential. I’m glad I never thought like that. Genetics do play a role as far as “extreme development”, but so few will ever push hard enough or long enough (in terms of years of dedication) to ever reach their own potential that it makes it pointless to tell people that they probably don’t have the genetics to stand out much.

87

Sasquat wrote:

What a crock of shit
So few max their potential, how the hell do you know what average is. Yes, few have the potential for elite bb status, but the rest of your post is garbage.

Geez Sasquatch, I must have struck a nerve. You don’t have to max your potential to be limited by your genetics. My point is this; take two equal trainees (I know, no one is equal, but this is an example) with the same genetics…one trains “perfect” (doesn’t exist but for the purpose of this analogy) the other trains within the range of acceptable practices…not perfect but not exactly horrid either. What do you think the final difference will be? I’d say no more than 10%.

The truly gifted progress. Average trainees remain average no matter what they do and it is irrelevant if they “max their potential”. An average trainee after 15 years of lifting would still be lucky to make a 300 bench or an 18" arm. You can say crock of shit, but I’ve seen many guys in the gym over the years and unlike the internet lifts and measurements, we can see the true numbers.

Another example would be sprinting ability (again largely genetic in terms of your maximum potential). You telling me that the average guy with the maximum genetic ability to do a 4.9 40 is going to make any better progress if he trains in a better system? OK so he doesn’t “max” his potential and he is only timing out at 5.3 to illustrate your argument; So he makes some “better” adjustments and makes a 4.9? Did he improve appreciably? NO. He is STILL slow. So what if Mr. Average maximizes/realizes his potential…he’s still not and never will be among the elite, in strength sport or BB competition.

One last point; for all the so-called advances in training methodology, it would be very interesting to see what actual impact its had on the results of let’s say, olympic lifting within the last 30 years (keeping all things equal, comparing a steroid era to a steroid era)…I’d say the training methodologies haven’t resulted in that much progress. If it hasn’t DRAMATICALLY improved the performance of the elite, what the heck do you think it holds for “average man”??? LOL. Same holds true for sprinting…for all the so called advancements in training…records fall over decades and by mere tenths of a second.

I say how you train is less important than your genetic potential. However awkward I expressed my point is no need to get personal bro. Where you from in PA…we’re practically neighbors.

Steve

88

I agree. If someone enters into bodybuilding already believing from the beginning that their potential is extremely limited, they will never reach their potential. I’m glad I never thought like that. Genetics do play a role as far as “extreme development”, but so few will ever push hard enough or long enough (in terms of years of dedication) to ever reach their own potential that it makes it pointless to tell people that they probably don’t have the genetics to stand out much.

Yes, a valid point…but you’re still making my point too. If we are not talking “extreme development”…then how much real world, verifiable results do you actually believe one training system enjoys over the other. Don’t take my post the wrong way…I would never suggest someone give up b/c they think they’re genetics aren’t up to par. There are too many intangibles in sport that more than make up for what your parents didn’t give you; if that wasn’t the case, every great athlete would be a professional athlete and we know that not to be the case.

I’m merely using genetics as a means to illustrate that no matter what system you use, you will largely progress according to your potential and that you will not exceed that potential no matter what “system” you use. It largely makes the argument/debate about training methodoligies moot for the average trainee.

Do you think Coan is great because of his system (not a WSB system by far) or his genetics? If its his system, then Louie’s guys shouldn’t be doing what they do? OK they are extremes according to you and you’re right. If it doesn’t matter that much to the elite, what do you think the impact is to the man of average genetics? The answer is nominal. That’s my point…period. Hope I clarified.

Steve

89

Sasquatch:

I just read my original post; geez bro, I really need to know what/where I wrote that is a “crock of shit”…Please illuminate…your earlier reponse was “nonresponsive”. Please take something I wrote and rebut it. I’m interested.

90

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Sasquat wrote:

What a crock of shit
So few max their potential, how the hell do you know what average is. Yes, few have the potential for elite bb status, but the rest of your post is garbage.

Geez Sasquatch, I must have struck a nerve. You don’t have to max your potential to be limited by your genetics. My point is this; take two equal trainees (I know, no one is equal, but this is an example) with the same genetics…one trains “perfect” (doesn’t exist but for the purpose of this analogy) the other trains within the range of acceptable practices…not perfect but not exactly horrid either. What do you think the final difference will be? I’d say no more than 10%.

The truly gifted progress. Average trainees remain average no matter what they do and it is irrelevant if they “max their potential”. An average trainee after 15 years of lifting would still be lucky to make a 300 bench or an 18" arm. You can say crock of shit, but I’ve seen many guys in the gym over the years and unlike the internet lifts and measurements, we can see the true numbers.

Another example would be sprinting ability (again largely genetic in terms of your maximum potential). You telling me that the average guy with the maximum genetic ability to do a 4.9 40 is going to make any better progress if he trains in a better system? OK so he doesn’t “max” his potential and he is only timing out at 5.3 to illustrate your argument; So he makes some “better” adjustments and makes a 4.9? Did he improve appreciably? NO. He is STILL slow. So what if Mr. Average maximizes/realizes his potential…he’s still not and never will be among the elite, in strength sport or BB competition.

One last point; for all the so-called advances in training methodology, it would be very interesting to see what actual impact its had on the results of let’s say, olympic lifting within the last 30 years (keeping all things equal, comparing a steroid era to a steroid era)…I’d say the training methodologies haven’t resulted in that much progress. If it hasn’t DRAMATICALLY improved the performance of the elite, what the heck do you think it holds for “average man”??? LOL. Same holds true for sprinting…for all the so called advancements in training…records fall over decades and by mere tenths of a second.

I say how you train is less important than your genetic potential. However awkward I expressed my point is no need to get personal bro. Where you from in PA…we’re practically neighbors.

Steve [/quote]

No nerve struck, just callin’ it like I see it.

Your comparison in elit lifters over the past 30 yrs. means nothing. In the elite of the elite, how long does it take to make substantial gains? I mean it’s bee 50 years since someone ran a 4 minute mile, how fast are they now? How long has the max dead been whatever it is per weightclass.

I’ll bet you the average guy can make MUCH higher gains given a system and work ethic.

Your assertion that the average guy will always be average depends on when you decide that person is in fact average. How do you know? How many late bloomers do you know of that --if your logic is used–would have never tried because they were considered just average.

And I assume given your stats that you must have the 18-20 inch arms that those of us perceived by you to be only average have no hope of attaining.

I still call bullshit!

91

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Steve

No nerve struck, just callin’ it like I see it.

Your comparison in elit lifters over the past 30 yrs. means nothing. In the elite of the elite, how long does it take to make substantial gains? I mean it’s bee 50 years since someone ran a 4 minute mile, how fast are they now? How long has the max dead been whatever it is per weightclass.

Good question and you’re making my point. For all the so called improvements in training…there should be much better performances. I’d wager the percentage improvement is not that great.

I’ll bet you the average guy can make MUCH higher gains given a system and work ethic.

That is absolutely baseless. You think the average guy is going to make better progress than the elite athlete with elite genetics? You need to reconsider that…its just plain wrong.

Your assertion that the average guy will always be average depends on when you decide that person is in fact average. How do you know? How many late bloomers do you know of that --if your logic is used–would have never tried because they were considered just average.

This is not even worthy of debate. I think you’re personalizing this; did you bloom late or were you at one time deemed “average”? You’re taking this somewhere its not intended to go; If someone has average genetics, that won’t change no matter what…so there is no “late blooming”. If you progress beyond average, your genetic aren’t average then. Or, are you arguing, as far fetched as it could be, that you can exceed your genetics? Please, think about that one. You’re getting caught up in labels and injecting issues where one might not try b/c they think they are average…my point wasn’t about that. I’m merely pointing out that most are average and cannot exceed that. The orginal question was how do these big guys get big with crappy training? Well, barring steroids, barring his misunderstanding the training, etc., let’s assume they really train “horrid”…well the answer to the question is that they are big b/c they are genetically gifted to become big.

And I assume given your stats that you must have the 18-20 inch arms that those of us perceived by you to be only average have no hope of attaining.

[/quote]

LOL…you’re funny bro, but if genetically you’re not wired to get there, you won’t. End of story. It can’t be debated and my stats are irrelvant; I didn’t post this to brag, I posted to lend some perspective to the constant debates about one system over another when most guys will never compete in a powerlifting contest or a bb contest. Doesn’t that kinda make the whole damn issue moot? And, if we follow what you imply, since you disagree with me, there MUST be a magical system where you can attain this right? What system is that? If you truly are interested in my stats, I’ll give them honestly…and yes, I’m gifted, but it doesn’t shape my opinion on this. See, I sympathize with the heart of your argument…I grew up with a grandfather that dwelled on things like, you won’t be big enough to play football…tall enough to play basketball…stick with baseball…you can play golf forever, etc. Believe me bro, I’m not discouraging good old fashion effort and determination, putting your cards on the table and see where you end up…but I really think you missed my point.

Steve

92

My post got messed up. Here are my comments/replies to your post. Sorry I messed this up:

You say:
Your comparison in elite lifters over the past 30 yrs. means nothing. In the elite of the elite, how long does it take to make substantial gains? I mean it’s been 50 years since someone ran a 4 minute mile, how fast are they now? How long has the max dead been whatever it is per weightclass.

I say:
Good question and you’re making my point. For all the so called improvements in training…there should be much better performances. I’d wager the percentage improvement is not that great.

You say:
I’ll bet you the average guy can make MUCH higher gains given a system and work ethic.

I say:
That is absolutely baseless. You think the average guy is going to make better progress than the elite athlete with elite genetics? You need to reconsider that…its just plain wrong.

You say:
Your assertion that the average guy will always be average depends on when you decide that person is in fact average. How do you know? How many late bloomers do you know of that --if your logic is used–would have never tried because they were considered just average.

I say:
This is not even worthy of debate. I think you’re personalizing this; did you bloom late or were you at one time deemed “average”? You’re taking this somewhere its not intended to go; If someone has average genetics, that won’t change no matter what…so there is no “late blooming”. If you progress beyond average, your genetic aren’t average then. Or, are you arguing, as far fetched as it could be, that you can exceed your genetics? Please, think about that one. You’re getting caught up in labels and injecting issues where one might not try b/c they think they are average…my point wasn’t about that. I’m merely pointing out that most are average and cannot exceed that. The orginal question was how do these big guys get big with crappy training? Well, barring steroids, barring his misunderstanding the training, etc., let’s assume they really train “horrid”…well the answer to the question is that they are big b/c they are genetically gifted to become big.

You say:
And I assume given your stats that you must have the 18-20 inch arms that those of us perceived by you to be only average have no hope of attaining.

I say:
LOL…you’re funny bro, but if genetically you’re not wired to get there, you won’t. End of story. It can’t be debated and my stats are irrelvant; I didn’t post this to brag, I posted to lend some perspective to the constant debates about one system over another when most guys will never compete in a powerlifting contest or a bb contest. Doesn’t that kinda make the whole damn issue moot? And, if we follow what you imply, since you disagree with me, there MUST be a magical system where you can attain this right? What system is that? If you truly are interested in my stats, I’ll give them honestly…and yes, I’m gifted, but it doesn’t shape my opinion on this. See, I sympathize with the heart of your argument…I grew up with a grandfather that dwelled on things like, you won’t be big enough to play football…tall enough to play basketball…stick with baseball…you can play golf forever, etc. Believe me bro, I’m not discouraging good old fashion effort and determination, putting your cards on the table and see where you end up…but I really think you missed my point.

Steve

93

your constant personal referrence to me is baseless.
I think you are wrong
You, as well, are entitled to your opinion.
As a side note-it’s too bad your grandpa was that way to you. I think it helped form your opinions that most people are average.
I believe it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I’ve seen the anecdotal evidence to suggest that those that may appear average, have more in them than they even believe.
So while your average is statistically correct given mathematical properties and a finite population, it is bull when it come to actual performance and possibilities
IN MY OPINION.

94

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I say:
Good question and you’re making my point. For all the so called improvements in training…there should be much better performances. I’d wager the percentage improvement is not that great.
[/quote]

Records have gone WAY up in the past 40 years. Take a look at them - a 500lbs C&J as a SHW used to be amazing. Now, if you can’t do that as a SHW, you’re shit.

You sure beat the hell out of that straw man :slight_smile: You’re not arguing the same idea as sasquatch here. He’s saying that you could take 20 average guys (of which NONE actually exist) and split them between two programs. Over several years, there will be a big difference between the two groups if one program is designed very well and one just kind of looks okay. You also have to be careful what sort of athletic elite you’re talking about. An elite marathon runner or an elite ice dancer (shudder) aren’t going to respond the same way to a maximal strength program as an elite sprinter or elite powerlifter (or anyone with the physiological makeup to become one of said groups).

Tell me, what does it mean to be gifted to become big? What variables are genetically determined, and what variables are within the control of the individual? How should a training program reflect these variables? Also, what does it mean to be “average?” Are physiological adaptations possible within the “average” man that will allow him to progress more effectively in a given goal?

Genetic limits in terms of size gains are a stupid discussion to even have. NO ONE IN HISTORY has reached theirs. Were you around this site when Biotest introduced their myostatin blocker? It stopped being sold REAL fast because it didn’t sell; it didn’t sell because NOBODY would see any appreciable results from using any product based on the premise of raising your “genetic ceiling” or whatever - the end goal isn’t the problem, it’s rate limiters in progress. These can be minimized through scientific training (and personal trial and error falls in this categoty, it’s self experimentation).

Read a few physiology texts and the training experiments of the Soviets/Bulgarians/etc. It’s no one system for every individual - it’s a particular system for each particular individual. It’s true that not everyone can be champion - there are some factors out of one’s control that will make that little bit of difference between a 1000lbs squat and a 900. But there are a LOT of factors under one’s own control that will lead to incredible progress towards a particular goal.

-Dan

95

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
your constant personal referrence to me is baseless.
I think you are wrong
You, as well, are entitled to your opinion.
As a side note-it’s too bad your grandpa was that way to you. I think it helped form your opinions that most people are average.
I believe it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I’ve seen the anecdotal evidence to suggest that those that may appear average, have more in them than they even believe.
So while your average is statistically correct given mathematical properties and a finite population, it is bull when it come to actual performance and possibilities
IN MY OPINION.
[/quote]

I respect your opinion and believe it or not, I understand where you are trying to come from; but you do not get my point. You are confusing the issue of performance improvement with my position on there being an ultimate limit. If, through “proper” training and nutrition, anyone could achieve a 20" arm or a 500lb bench for example, where the heck are all these folks? They don’t exist sir. And they don’t exist not for lack of hard work, etc., they don’t exists because of individual limitations.

Liste, I don’t really want to talk about myself but I played B ball at a high level in my 20’s (I’m 40 now). I can tell you unequivicolly, that genetics ruled each level of competition. At the high school level, the better athletes excelled; and at that level, the hard working guy who practiced alot, could not only compete but excel. Move on to D1 college ball; that hard working kid w/o the athleticism does not exist. All the kids are “better” athletes. Move on to pro ball, weed out the big bodies, and EVERYONE is an elite athlete. Now, there are always exceptions to the rule I agree, but they are exceptions. I played, at the very beginning levels, with guys that were never going to be quick, never jump high, etc, no matter how they trained. And I still believe that in strength sports, sprinting, BB, etc., if you are average, you have a ceiling that you will not breach.

I don’t “think” that most athletes are average…I “know” it. I’ve watched athletes drop off the radar at each higher level without fail; and my best friend was a world class track athlete and I watched it occur in track too.

Listen, if you’re correct, everyone has the potential to run a sub 10 100 and bench 500; I say you’re dead wrong.

I think your point is not to just accept that you MAY have average genetics…you keep pushing, training, trying, etc. That I agree with wholeheartedly b/c absent that, I don’t think there is a surefire way to predict what your limits are.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree…I wasn’t trying to make it personal. Good luck to you and I respect your view point.

Intelligent discussion in the confines of the internet is hopeless…its too confining…not your fault and not mine…we probably agree more than you think.

96

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
I respect your opinion and believe it or not, I understand where you are trying to come from; but you do not get my point. You are confusing the issue of performance improvement with my position on there being an ultimate limit. If, through “proper” training and nutrition, anyone could achieve a 20" arm or a 500lb bench for example, where the heck are all these folks? They don’t exist sir. And they don’t exist not for lack of hard work, etc., they don’t exists because of individual limitations.[/quote]

People with 20" arms and a bench at 500lbs don’t exist?

97

Mu point was not to suggest that anyone who trains can attain any goal they set for themselves. I understand as you move ‘up the elite scale’ less and less people are going to be there. You would have to be a complete fool not to understand the culling of the herd as you move up levels of competition.

My main issue here is defining average genetic potential, hen we don’t know the boundries of full potential.

You are correct about discussions on the internet. It is tough to hold an intelligent conversation given the parameters. You’re probably right that I bet we’d agree moreso given the ability to freely communicate and fully get one anothers point across.

Thanks for the discussion. If I find a way to express my opinion more clearly, maybe we can continue on with a higher level of discussion. I think I know what you are trying to say, and I know what I am, but for some reason it just ain’t quite meeting in the middle.

98

[quote]Professor X wrote:
People with 20" arms and a bench at 500lbs don’t exist? [/quote]

Prof:

I meant they don’t exist in high numbers - Especially drug free…let’s not even inject the steroid issue. Take away steroids, and my points are even more valid.

But I meant if they were achievable by “average man”…we’d see alot more of them.

99

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:

Read a few physiology texts and the training experiments of the Soviets/Bulgarians/etc. It’s no one system for every individual - it’s a particular system for each particular individual. It’s true that not everyone can be champion - there are some factors out of one’s control that will make that little bit of difference between a 1000lbs squat and a 900. But there are a LOT of factors under one’s own control that will lead to incredible progress towards a particular goal.

-Dan
[/quote]

Dan, I took the trouble to reply to you…and its gone…let’s just agree to disagree…this is getting too long and the forum cannot do our view points justice. I understand the things you’re saying…and I’d love to point out some problems with your arugment, but its getting too long. Where in PA are you; we are neighbors…NJ here.

Steve

100

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Professor X wrote:
People with 20" arms and a bench at 500lbs don’t exist?

Prof:

I meant they don’t exist in high numbers - Especially drug free…let’s not even inject the steroid issue. Take away steroids, and my points are even more valid.

But I meant if they were achievable by “average man”…we’d see alot more of them.[/quote]

Genetics would be a Bell curve. There would be many who are average with fewer who have poor genetics and fewer who ahve great genetics. The point is, if the guy with great genetics approaches this as if he has “average” genetics, he will never reach his potential. You are telling everyone to accept “average”. If I had listened to you, I wouldn’t be above average in size. That is why you don’t tell people to approach training as if they are all average. No one even knows what “average” is. The average person might be able to reach an 18" arm, but they never eat enough because they are afraid of getting fat…or they don’t train long enough or hard enough. If you believe you have limits like that, you won’t ever even try to see if you can reach beyond it.

It is like an elephant at the zoo that they tie a rope to. They place the rope around their leg when they are young to teach them boundaries. When they are older, they can keep them in place with a string…because they believe they can’t break free. It’s a fucking elephant who believes it can’t break free.

Why do you want people to think like that?