Biden 2021 - A Mediocre Middle Ground

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
2642

I got it months ago, before virtually anyone in my demographic was getting it because I opted for astrazenica; the vaccine a fear campaign was being promoted over… Ironically also the only vaccine we had in quantities high enough to conduct mass vaccination at the time

My rationale for getting the shot early was the HOPE Aus would impose vaccine exemptions like virtually every other developed, secular country in the world did…

Also preferred the worst case repercussions with AZ relative to Pfizer, not that I was worried about the risks associated with either as I’ve done things far more risky than take a vaccine like riding a motorcycle, rock climbing, riding a jet ski,
water skiing, flying down expert level ski slopes with little skiing experience and subsequently wiping out, smoking cigars, combat sports, heavy weightlifting and more.

I agree people probably “should” take the shot, vaccine mandates contrary to popular belief aren’t anything new. Even vaccine requirements to travel have been around for quite some time.

But I’m taken back by vaccine requirements to leave your own home, to go to a restaurant, to visit a family member, to go for a jog in the park. It’s a step too far… It might be effective, but Aus has been descending down an incredibly slippery slope. My state is still in flat out stage 4 lockdown… Still can’t leave the home level lockdown…

2643

I was talking about the introduction of the Green Pass during the lockdowns prior to their Delta wave. But the point is polices that do not amount to mandating compulsory vaccinations for people other than government employees in certain sectors such as medical staff aren’t new at all. The US is actually lagging behind several countries when it comes to these. I’m not sure why the dude has the belief that all these have been influenced by the US. If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought he’s been watching too many CCP propaganda videos lol.

2644

Due to the cultural paradigm the USA is enveloped within its going to be considerably more difficult to pass through mandates for vaccines, impose restrictions on movement etc. I don’t quite agree with the “let it rip” approach, I personally happen to know more than one person who died from covid-19… But what countries like Australia, Singapore, New Zeland and China are doing is fucking insane.

Liberty is a value treasured by the US population… Generally… Though anti democratic sentiment is becoming somewhat more omnipresent from both counterparts of the political spectrum.

The authoritarian leaning portion of the right don’t like the notion of rights pertaining to bodily autonomy, freedom of press, media (in favour of cencorship) and freedom of expression. The authoritarian leaning side of the left don’t want freedom of press, media (also in favour of censorship on the opposite side of the spectrum), freedom of expression, the right to own a firearm (though I’d argue it needn’t be a right for the mentally ill or for those convicted of violent crimes)… In many ways both sides ironically overlap; they wish to oppress those who deviate from their accepted societal status quo.

I argue this is a slippery slope that leads to outright punitive measures imposed upon “people who think in a way we don’t agree with” regardless of whether a body of thought or a preached ideology fundamentally has any wide reaching negative impact on greater society, or perhaps the punishment cannot be justified by the abysmal level of systemic impact present.

The one side is a fantasical woke wonderland, one wherein those who think those born as biologically male, who have gone through puberty as men should be restricted from participating in women’s sports needn’t have a voice. A society where feelings matter more than facts, a society where everyone is enveloped within a sheltered echo chamber.

The other side of spectrum encompasses a society built on old school religious principles, sexual oppression and a level of harsh justice that would lead to a level of mass incarceration far beyond the epidemic America is already grappling with.

Obviously I’m referring to two extremes that still represent a stark minority. The majority of Americans support democracy, or what they believe is democracy.

If this political divide continues, and I believe it will; then I wouldn’t be surprised if fringe demographics within both mainstream political parties end up dividing both democrats and Republicans.

Extremes on neither side end up without serious repercussions

Take the island of Inis Beag. A devoutly Catholic, fervently religious population. They’d be the Catholic equivalent of minority sects within the ultra, ultra, ultra, ULTRA orthodox Jewish population. I’m not sure if this Catholic equivalent exists anymore. They more/less lived under what we today might consider borderline biblical law, or as close to it as one can get.

They were TREMENDOUSLY sexually repressed. Those who studied the inhabitants noted not only was sex a commodity not talked about, but when married couples were to finally lay with one another, intercourse was a commodity engaged in partially to fully clothed. The residents were terrified of nudity, even pertaining to their own bodies so they would bathe fully clothed. Modesty entailed having early all body parts covered at all times

Couples getting married frequently received no sexual education, and the goal was to let “nature take its course” as the couple would “figure it out”. For women, sexual intercourse was considered a burden to be ‘endured’ as foreplay, the prospect of a female orgasm was unknown of as no one knew women were capable of feeling sexual pleasure.

Purportedly, scholars documented this repression led to high rates of masturbation, alcoholism and alcohol fuelled violence.

The left wing fringe has countless examples of failed experiments akin to Inis Beag. Christiana Freetown (anarchist commune) and Kowloon Walled City come to mind. Granted neither abode by autocratic ideals, I look to Australia as a modern,
not QUITE so extreme example as to why more government regulation isn’t always the best idea.

Inis Beag isn’t what it once was for reference. The town has modernised and now abides by mainstream, acceptable Catholic ideals and principles. I want to go there one day, it looks like a beautiful place.

Christiana Freetown is still up and running, but residents now have to pay rent, organised crime dominates ‘pusher street’ and police raids are very common. The dream of a hippie utopia is dead

Kowloon Walled City is no more…

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2645

Well @loppar has spoken a bit about the unspoken degeneracy he’s seen in some conservative Islamic countries before. I can concur from my experiences in the more moderate ones. Hell, there was an Egyptian dude I was trying to help out with his training a couple of years back right in this forum who was whining quite a bit about most chicks he knew being total sluts while putting up a false facade of abiding by social and cultural norms in their normal day to day interactions and how I was being fooled by the image his country tries to project lol. Seemed a a troubled guy with marital problems. I didn’t have the heart to tell him how many times I’ve gone halal in my region lmao.

Our fellow degenerate of Cantonese ethnicity, @punnyguy , actually lived there.

:joy:

2646

It appears degeneracy and vice is the order of the day for much of the world now, even for “conservatives”. I myself was even fooled about Russia, thinking it was a rare beacon of “trad” values.

Last month I saw a North Korean anti-American propaganda film about the US. Sadly, I couldn’t disagree with what was said.

2647

Russian culture is synonymous with binge drinking. From this alone it should be very clear the country is not a beacon for those looking for a society that abstains from vice.

I don’t think such a society exists. Those who do attempt to shun vice in its entirety end up akin to how Inis Beag was in the 1960’s… And while they didn’t have pornography, illicit drugs or widespread promiscuity they were representative of a tremendously repressed and problematic society literally bursting at the seams with existentialist angst, guilt and depression.

This is not a knock at you… But I do wonder, if you think America in particular is bad I wonder how shocked you’d be if you went to a large portion of the countries in Europe.

American attitudes towards sexuality are considered downright prudish relative to most of Europe, and even Australia. I’ve seen public nudity in Europe on beaches, in city centres (Amsterdam), nudity to which few seem to bat an eye at.

I’m not denying there hasn’t been a degree of societal degeneration over the past century, I disagree with the notion the sexual revolution mediated ALL of the degree of degeneracy, the systematic unfolding of our moral fabric as we know it that we see today.

There are multiple compounding factors that come into play. The industrial revolution, redistribution of workforces and individualistic priorities, large scale warfare (for the US, Vietnam in particular) and the subsequent widespread introduction of illicit and licit drugs within contemporary youth counterculture, ‘redneck’ or ‘bogan’ culture (as Aus would say), political divisiveness, advances in medical technology.

The latter example is associated with many positives as well as negatives.

I don’t think sex is something we as a society need to be ashamed of. There is nothing inherently “dirty” or sinful about human sexuality. Rather the context and callousness by which society treats sexual relations can be problematic; particularly when it results in broken households and children being raised absent of a nuclear familial dynamic.

“Consequence free” sex does appear to exist within a modern societal paradigm, but it’s rare. We often overlook the social and physical risks associated with promiscuity as well as the downstream consequences associated with a child growing up without a parent (or parents).

If we look at the available statistics pertaining to lifetime sexual partners, pre marital sex has been common since the 1940’s. I could dig up the exact statistics, back in the 40’s/50’s the average number of sexual partners surveyed within men/women has consistently ranked between 10-15.

Current generations don’t appear to be having less sex, with only 2% of Gen Z claiming to be virgins by the time they reach mid 20’s… Men consistently rank higher regarding how many sexual partners they report having.

I’m assuming you’re referring to degeneracy in the terms of sexual misconduct, drug/alcohol abuse, social degradation and the likes.

I don’t think it’s more prevalent per se, rather it’s persuasively in your face. In a context wherein youth are now exposed at younger and younger ages. The “one partner for life” is somewhat unique to judeo-christian philosophy. Many minor religious factions, tribes and ancient societies dabbled with outright polygamy, not that I’m find of the idea. Many sects of Islam also dabble with polygamy.

Remember… Every subsequent generation appears to complain about current era counterparts lacking respect, manners and adequate moral fundamentals. I happen to think society will be fine because these phases come and go. The pendulum swings, and when we swing too far towards one extreme, portions of society eventually clap back and revolt, setting a new standard.

I think we either need a middle ground, which unfortunately doesn’t seem likely to occur given how divided society is at the moment… That or we need different societies suited towards different types of people. Which we sort of have, think ultra orthodox neighbourhoods in Israel of which cut themselves off from the rest of the world and the likes… But perhaps a similar paradigm could be systematically applied, albeit not as extreme.

Then everyone could be happy! Tourism could still exist, people who grow up in one environment who aren’t happy can immigrate to another society that has a different set of ideals.

Of course this is a utopian, fantasical scenario… But it’s cool to think about

.

2648

Which is quite interesting given how harsh the penalties are pertaining to this kind of conduct within countries run under Shariah law

When you repress vice, people typically act out behind closed doors less they’ve been walled off from the outside world and this way of life is all they know. If restricting vice with draconian penalties worked, the Phillipines wouldn’t still have a drug problem and extremely dangerous, back alley abortions wouldn’t have become commonplace within many developing nations.

Even then, looking at rates of domestic violence, spousal abuse, alcoholism, sexual repression etc within these communities and it paints a picture that is far from optimal. As specified, I think a middle ground needs to be reached as opposed to reaching towards the other end of extreme to try solve the problem.

It’s an enticing solution that on paper appears to work, but when applied doesn’t appear to hold ground as human nature inherently triumphs.

What does appear to work, is inherently creating a societal stigma absent of penalty. Think Australia’s anti tobacco measures. You’ll never eliminate vice, but you can reduce the prevalence.

But I’d argue there are far reaching, long term ramifications to using propaganda/lying to get your way. In certain cultural revolutions, stigma has worked. Like anti tobacco measures in Australia/other first world countries. They worked because smoking actually is TERRIBLE for you. Do these campaigns exaggerate?.. A little bit… Yes, but they convinced many to put down the ciggies.

2649

You know I never said this. And when I say Vice and degeneracy I am not solely talking about sexual degeneracy.

2650

I wasn’t referring to you when I said this. I was giving my opinion

2651

Hence I referenced drug use, sexual misconduct, youth degeneracy and more.

There’s also widespread prevalence and acceptance of "gang’’ culture, petty crimes like vandalism and shoplifting etc. Degeneracy encompasses many societal aspects. It’s very omnipresent given many appear to be raised inadequately without being taught respect, how to empathise, how to take others into consideration before acting on impulse.

Much of today’s youth from my perspective appear to be comprised of entitled brats who for whatever reason feel as if they’re special enough to somehow be above all that keeps society grounded.

2652

Alright.

Also, I’ll say that while every society has and will have Vice and degeneracy, it does not mean we should promote them and put them front and center.

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2653

Thanks boomers.

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2654

It’s also the generation after that. Two generations of kids by and large seemingly raised by neglectful, largely uninvolved parents.

I’m generalising (obviously), generalisations are required when talking of the population at large. However when I see property destruction, stealing, incessant whining and poor work ethic I can’t help but think “where were the parents? What went wrong?”

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2655

Yes, hence my comment

Engrained sociocultural stigma can work… That or age mandates for exposure, the same way there are heavy restrictions on modern video games.

When the new BATMAN (Arkham Knight) game came out in America I wasn’t able to buy it! A parent had to procure it for me because I wasn’t seventeen. I suppose now with digital copies being less relevant it’s easier to get around this.

2656

Yes, considering that people are now seeing pornography at eight years old.

Then people wonder why those strange parents are homeschooling. Gee, I wonder why.

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2657

To be fair… The first time I was exposed to pornography was entirely accidental. I was seven and it occured in the home.

It wasn’t anything particularly graphic. Pictures of breasts. I remember it vividly because it freaked me out, I’d seen nudity before on National Geographic; but not in this context. First exposure to hardcore pornography… At ten years old I came across a magazine a family member of mine had. A very explicit magazine, far beyond what you’d see in playboy.

First time watching an X rated ‘video’ that I was probably around fifteen, so older than most nowdays. I was far from innocent, I just hadn’t watched a lot of porn… But I’d seen south park, most 80s slasher flicks, I’d tried my first alcoholic beverage before then too etc.

I had my internet usage tracked when I was younger. I couldn’t watch pornography easily, though sometimes I’d see tiny snippets on others devices by request. It’s not as if the inability to look caused me to stop looking around. I was curious…

I could understand this for an eight year old, though I have my qualms about homeschooling. Homeschooling say… A seventeen year old seems iffy. I do believe the majority of ‘first exposures’ to pornography tend to happen at the home, not in public or at school.

2658

Yes, it was accidental. But it was available in the home. And someone had to physically go out and purchase a video or magazine back then. Now a kid doesn’t even have to own a phone or have a product in his home to look at it. He (or she) can simply be with someone who has a phone anywhere.

2659

This would infer an eight year old is around other eight year olds who are looking at pornography

From the literature I’ve read, the average age of first exposure is still around fourteen. And a decent portion of those aged 14-18 in the states, particularly girls, still report having never been exposed.

I didn’t even know what porn was at eight years old, despite the fact I had been briefly exposed as referenced in my post above.

Unless a kid is hanging out with some seriously disturbed eight year olds whose parents are totally out of the equation; I can’t forsee a friend coming up and exclaiming “look at this extremely explicit, out of context adult video I found! I haven’t even hit puberty but I’m looking for this!”

Perhaps I’m wrong, it just seems like a farce to me.

2660

I grew up with people who were exposed at ten years old and already actually seeking at twelve!

Oh, I remember quite a few disturbed kids. And there are real stories about them.

2661

I thought the average was thirteen. Though exposure happens earlier in some cases. If I recall correctly I was first exposed to a magazine at ten or eleven, and it was graphic. A kid in summer camp had magazines he got from is dad’s stash.

Looking back, I believe many parents from my childhood from my neck of the woods seemed to be in outer space.