Bible Contradictions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]forbes wrote:
From the hate being received in this thread, I don’t know if I should start fearing for my life…[/quote]

You shouldn’t. The arguments that have been brought up are often called arguments from outrage because that’s what they tend to elicit. My apologies for setting you up. One of my biggest gripes with the bible/christianity is precisely this issue. I think it’s an important one that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately it’s a very difficult one for the believer since it puts them in a bad spot no matter how they answer the question.

142

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@Pangloss

No, it does not matter who is doing the killing.

Yes, everyone (except St. Mary and Jesus) are guilty. However, babes that day who haven’t had a chance to be baptized could hypothetically go to Heaven, through grace.

Because God is Most Just, this isn’t a conditional thing, like so far God has been most just. He is Most Just so all his decisions have to be completely just. He is the creator, doesn’t the creator have full domain over his property? [/quote]

So if someone kills someone for making fun of a prophet, then that is wrong - no matter who does the killing. This is what your position is.

So, in Judges, when God kills some youths for insulting the prophet Elisha, by sending she bears after them, this would presumably be ‘wrong’, correct?

Or are insults about someone’s baldness somehow above reproach?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
We can’t make that judgement that she went to Hell. I don’t know enough about Anne Frank to make a judgement on what she did in life. However, no one except God has the knowledge of her heart. She may have followed God’s will, she may have followed the Law. I cannot say, that is God’s place. As well, as a Jew she is my spiritual sister. I have several little kids that will be in my care once I am married, and if their parents are to die. Two of them are twins, a boy and a girl - both Jewish. Their parents have asked me if anything does happen, that I not baptise them (unless they wish to be baptised), and I have no problem with respecting their wishes.

As much as some people wish that was the case, I’ll have to say that it is not the case that with Catholic-Christian theology Anne Franke is in Hell. Jewish people are a very different situation within Catholic theology, and I’d have to do more research to explain it. But, I wouldn’t say that Ms. Frank is in Hell. [/quote]

I think the bible is quite clear that anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as the way is bound for a lake of fire.[/quote]

No, there is no place of fiery torment for the wicked. With regards the lake of fire, look what else is in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:14

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”

It is symbolic to show complete destruction. Simple as that.

143

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@Pangloss

No, it does not matter who is doing the killing.

Yes, everyone (except St. Mary and Jesus) are guilty. However, babes that day who haven’t had a chance to be baptized could hypothetically go to Heaven, through grace.

Because God is Most Just, this isn’t a conditional thing, like so far God has been most just. He is Most Just so all his decisions have to be completely just. He is the creator, doesn’t the creator have full domain over his property? [/quote]

So if someone kills someone for making fun of a prophet, then that is wrong - no matter who does the killing. This is what your position is.

So, in Judges, when God kills some youths for insulting the prophet Elisha, by sending she bears after them, this would presumably be ‘wrong’, correct?

Or are insults about someone’s baldness somehow above reproach?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
We can’t make that judgement that she went to Hell. I don’t know enough about Anne Frank to make a judgement on what she did in life. However, no one except God has the knowledge of her heart. She may have followed God’s will, she may have followed the Law. I cannot say, that is God’s place. As well, as a Jew she is my spiritual sister. I have several little kids that will be in my care once I am married, and if their parents are to die. Two of them are twins, a boy and a girl - both Jewish. Their parents have asked me if anything does happen, that I not baptise them (unless they wish to be baptised), and I have no problem with respecting their wishes.

As much as some people wish that was the case, I’ll have to say that it is not the case that with Catholic-Christian theology Anne Franke is in Hell. Jewish people are a very different situation within Catholic theology, and I’d have to do more research to explain it. But, I wouldn’t say that Ms. Frank is in Hell. [/quote]

I think the bible is quite clear that anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as the way is bound for a lake of fire.[/quote]

No, there is no place of fiery torment for the wicked. With regards the lake of fire, look what else is in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:14

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”

It is symbolic to show complete destruction. Simple as that.
[/quote]

So then Hitler temporarily killed Anne Frank and God eradicates her from existence. I suppose that’s not as bad as eternal torment.

I’m not sure it would be of any solace to her Christian friends/family who would be up there in heaven, missing her…

144

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
From the hate being received in this thread, I don’t know if I should start fearing for my life…[/quote]
You shouldn’t. The arguments that have been brought up are often called arguments from outrage because that’s what they tend to elicit. My apologies for setting you up. One of my biggest gripes with the bible/christianity is precisely this issue. I think it’s an important one that needs to be addressed. Unfortunately it’s a very difficult one for the believer since it puts them in a bad spot no matter how they answer the question.[/quote]
Luke 12:4-5

145

The biggest contradiction in the Bible has to do with God’s changing attitude from the Old Testament to the New Testament. If you believe God is unchanging, this change in attitude should not have occurred.

146

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
The biggest contradiction in the Bible has to do with God’s changing attitude from the Old Testament to the New Testament. If you believe God is unchanging, this change in attitude should not have occurred. [/quote]

God never changed from Old to New Testament. The plan for salvation was always the same. The difference was in man. When God first revealed himself to the Israelites, they were a small group of people living in the corner of the Near East. It took time for the word to spread. God was careful not to allow his word to be perverted by imposing tough laws on those who had heard it. By the time of the New Testament, the Israelites had been conquered and spread their word to he Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Egyptians, and others. From then to now, virtually nobody has not heard of Christianity.

147

[quote]forbes wrote:
From the hate being received in this thread, I don’t know if I should start fearing for my life…[/quote]

Haha, don’t worry about it. As long as you stay true to the Word you’ll always have those that hate you/it. I used to get frustrated about going through long explanations of evidence for belief only for someone to say, “only an idiot would believe.” All you can do is your part. God has to do the rest.

148

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
The biggest contradiction in the Bible has to do with God’s changing attitude from the Old Testament to the New Testament. If you believe God is unchanging, this change in attitude should not have occurred. [/quote]No change whatsoever. If you wanna hit us with change in the immutable God try the incarnation. At least make it a good one dude.

149

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@Pangloss

No, it does not matter who is doing the killing.

Yes, everyone (except St. Mary and Jesus) are guilty. However, babes that day who haven’t had a chance to be baptized could hypothetically go to Heaven, through grace.

Because God is Most Just, this isn’t a conditional thing, like so far God has been most just. He is Most Just so all his decisions have to be completely just. He is the creator, doesn’t the creator have full domain over his property? [/quote]

So if someone kills someone for making fun of a prophet, then that is wrong - no matter who does the killing. This is what your position is.

So, in Judges, when God kills some youths for insulting the prophet Elisha, by sending she bears after them, this would presumably be ‘wrong’, correct?

Or are insults about someone’s baldness somehow above reproach?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
We can’t make that judgement that she went to Hell. I don’t know enough about Anne Frank to make a judgement on what she did in life. However, no one except God has the knowledge of her heart. She may have followed God’s will, she may have followed the Law. I cannot say, that is God’s place. As well, as a Jew she is my spiritual sister. I have several little kids that will be in my care once I am married, and if their parents are to die. Two of them are twins, a boy and a girl - both Jewish. Their parents have asked me if anything does happen, that I not baptise them (unless they wish to be baptised), and I have no problem with respecting their wishes.

As much as some people wish that was the case, I’ll have to say that it is not the case that with Catholic-Christian theology Anne Franke is in Hell. Jewish people are a very different situation within Catholic theology, and I’d have to do more research to explain it. But, I wouldn’t say that Ms. Frank is in Hell. [/quote]

I think the bible is quite clear that anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as the way is bound for a lake of fire.[/quote]

No, there is no place of fiery torment for the wicked. With regards the lake of fire, look what else is in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:14

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”

It is symbolic to show complete destruction. Simple as that.
[/quote]

So then Hitler temporarily killed Anne Frank and God eradicates her from existence. I suppose that’s not as bad as eternal torment.

I’m not sure it would be of any solace to her Christian friends/family who would be up there in heaven, missing her…[/quote]

Does God eradicate an atheist from existence? I am not quite sure I follow.

150

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@Pangloss

No, it does not matter who is doing the killing.

Yes, everyone (except St. Mary and Jesus) are guilty. However, babes that day who haven’t had a chance to be baptized could hypothetically go to Heaven, through grace.

Because God is Most Just, this isn’t a conditional thing, like so far God has been most just. He is Most Just so all his decisions have to be completely just. He is the creator, doesn’t the creator have full domain over his property? [/quote]

So if someone kills someone for making fun of a prophet, then that is wrong - no matter who does the killing. This is what your position is.

So, in Judges, when God kills some youths for insulting the prophet Elisha, by sending she bears after them, this would presumably be ‘wrong’, correct?

Or are insults about someone’s baldness somehow above reproach?
[/quote]

I have never really studied that, I’m not sure about that passage. A lot of stuff happened in Judges that God didn’t sanction. So, do you have a verse on that so I can read it?

[quote]
I think the bible is quite clear that anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as the way is bound for a lake of fire.[/quote]

It is not clear about that, that is the over whelming message. However, Jesus does explain those that aren’t Christian.

Both The Gospel according to Matthew and Luke say that not everyone that calls out ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Those that do the will of the Father and which is what Jesus instructs us to do, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

As well, Paul’s letter points out to us that those who do not have the law, but do by nature what the law requires, they have the law written on their hearts.

Then again, Anne is Jewish, so she is bound by the Mosaic Law.

151

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Nope, you eat the apple you die spiritually. Christianity 101.[/quote]

I thought that sinners burned for eternity in Christianity - so how exactly does one die spiritually?[/quote]

Sinners = everyone except Jesus and Mary. Everyone is dead spiritually, as in they will not live for eternity. Once baptized in the name of Jesus, one is born again of the water and the spirit. After the initial sanctification, one relies on their merit.[/quote]

So you don’t believe in hell? I’m not trying to misinterpret you, but this seems to be what you are saying.
[/quote]

No, it is real. It is also healthy to have an understanding fear of Hell and what it is.[/quote]

Do people go there for eternity?[/quote]

Their spirit goes there until the final judgement, then their bodies go there as well and are eternally tormented. But, it is not God’s punishment. Those in Hell realise their hate of God to the fullest. And all the time their extreme prejudice of God torments their body and spirit.

152

[quote]Pangloss wrote:
BTW- here’s a passage where God sends she bears to maul some kids for making fun of a prophet because he’s bald:

NIV, Second Kings 2:23-24

2Ki 2:23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. “Go on up, you baldhead!” they said. “Go on up, you baldhead!”

2Ki 2:24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

So…Does God now get special privileges with regard to killing children for insulting a prophet?[/quote]

“Cursed them”… This curse, which was followed by so visible a judgment of God, was not the effect of passion, or of a desire of revenging himself; but of zeal for religion, which was insulted by these boys, in the person of the prophet; and of a divine inspiration: God punishing in this manner the inhabitants of Bethel, (the chief seat of the calf worship,) who had trained up their children in a prejudice against the true religion and its ministers.

Some commentary to that passage. I am still studying the NT, the OT will come soon enough when Dr. Scott Hahn comes out with an entire OT commentary. Although I picked up his Genesis commentary :wink:

153

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
So do I, but they don’t. Actually they just have nifty of ways where people can accept Christ without knowing they have. This is called “another gospel” which proponents the Apostle Paul in the epistle to the Galatians calls “accursed” (anathema), but who’s worrying about that? Interesting you see that though. Yes, even unbelievers can see that much in the Word of God.
[/quote]

Not to needle you from another thread, but according to your epistemology, how can you know that it’s a false gospel (this other gospel)?

Seriously I feel like I’ve been picking on you lately and that’s TOTALLY not my intention. It’s also not my intention to give the impression that I think that presuppositionalists are completely useless (or anything of the sort). I think they are wrong, but I think that they can serve a healthy dose of humility to atheists (and others) by presenting things that aren’t often thought about.

Okay so that was my off topic and I’ll stop that avenue.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
LOLOLOLOLOL!!! Now that I have the tears off my face from a goodly dose of hilarity. Outstanding!!!
[/quote]

I think that Brother Chris was dissing italian food with that comment! That’s not right! There’s nothing wrong with spaghetti. Nothing WHAT SO EVER.[/quote]

I’m eating a plate of spaghetti and meat sauce, right now. I have no clue what you’re talking about.

154

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@Pangloss

No, it does not matter who is doing the killing.

Yes, everyone (except St. Mary and Jesus) are guilty. However, babes that day who haven’t had a chance to be baptized could hypothetically go to Heaven, through grace.

Because God is Most Just, this isn’t a conditional thing, like so far God has been most just. He is Most Just so all his decisions have to be completely just. He is the creator, doesn’t the creator have full domain over his property? [/quote]

So if someone kills someone for making fun of a prophet, then that is wrong - no matter who does the killing. This is what your position is.

So, in Judges, when God kills some youths for insulting the prophet Elisha, by sending she bears after them, this would presumably be ‘wrong’, correct?

Or are insults about someone’s baldness somehow above reproach?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
We can’t make that judgement that she went to Hell. I don’t know enough about Anne Frank to make a judgement on what she did in life. However, no one except God has the knowledge of her heart. She may have followed God’s will, she may have followed the Law. I cannot say, that is God’s place. As well, as a Jew she is my spiritual sister. I have several little kids that will be in my care once I am married, and if their parents are to die. Two of them are twins, a boy and a girl - both Jewish. Their parents have asked me if anything does happen, that I not baptise them (unless they wish to be baptised), and I have no problem with respecting their wishes.

As much as some people wish that was the case, I’ll have to say that it is not the case that with Catholic-Christian theology Anne Franke is in Hell. Jewish people are a very different situation within Catholic theology, and I’d have to do more research to explain it. But, I wouldn’t say that Ms. Frank is in Hell. [/quote]

I think the bible is quite clear that anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as the way is bound for a lake of fire.[/quote]

No, there is no place of fiery torment for the wicked. With regards the lake of fire, look what else is in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:14

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”

It is symbolic to show complete destruction. Simple as that.
[/quote]

So then Hitler temporarily killed Anne Frank and God eradicates her from existence. I suppose that’s not as bad as eternal torment.

I’m not sure it would be of any solace to her Christian friends/family who would be up there in heaven, missing her…[/quote]

Well, even though I have no problem with H_L if you are wondering of the consensus of Christians, I wouldn’t ask a Jehovah’s Witness.

155

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@Pangloss

No, it does not matter who is doing the killing.

Yes, everyone (except St. Mary and Jesus) are guilty. However, babes that day who haven’t had a chance to be baptized could hypothetically go to Heaven, through grace.

Because God is Most Just, this isn’t a conditional thing, like so far God has been most just. He is Most Just so all his decisions have to be completely just. He is the creator, doesn’t the creator have full domain over his property? [/quote]

So if someone kills someone for making fun of a prophet, then that is wrong - no matter who does the killing. This is what your position is.

So, in Judges, when God kills some youths for insulting the prophet Elisha, by sending she bears after them, this would presumably be ‘wrong’, correct?

Or are insults about someone’s baldness somehow above reproach?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
We can’t make that judgement that she went to Hell. I don’t know enough about Anne Frank to make a judgement on what she did in life. However, no one except God has the knowledge of her heart. She may have followed God’s will, she may have followed the Law. I cannot say, that is God’s place. As well, as a Jew she is my spiritual sister. I have several little kids that will be in my care once I am married, and if their parents are to die. Two of them are twins, a boy and a girl - both Jewish. Their parents have asked me if anything does happen, that I not baptise them (unless they wish to be baptised), and I have no problem with respecting their wishes.

As much as some people wish that was the case, I’ll have to say that it is not the case that with Catholic-Christian theology Anne Franke is in Hell. Jewish people are a very different situation within Catholic theology, and I’d have to do more research to explain it. But, I wouldn’t say that Ms. Frank is in Hell. [/quote]

I think the bible is quite clear that anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as the way is bound for a lake of fire.[/quote]

No, there is no place of fiery torment for the wicked. With regards the lake of fire, look what else is in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:14

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.”

It is symbolic to show complete destruction. Simple as that.
[/quote]

So then Hitler temporarily killed Anne Frank and God eradicates her from existence. I suppose that’s not as bad as eternal torment.

I’m not sure it would be of any solace to her Christian friends/family who would be up there in heaven, missing her…[/quote]

Well, even though I have no problem with H_L if you are wondering of the consensus of Christians, I wouldn’t ask a Jehovah’s Witness.[/quote]

Haha. That I would agree with. However, I have no problem whatsoever go into detail (just like the trinity) about why there is no place of fiery torment. It isn’t a scriptural teaching.

156

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
The biggest contradiction in the Bible has to do with God’s changing attitude from the Old Testament to the New Testament. If you believe God is unchanging, this change in attitude should not have occurred. [/quote]

What you claim is not true, not because there wasn’t a clear change in attitude, but because you’re not having the whole argument.

Old Testament dealt with Abba, Yahweh, the Father and the Holy Ghost. New Testament, Jesus came down and established His Church on earth.

The Father - Strong
Holy Ghost - Wisdom
Jesus Lord - Love

The Father and the Son are one in the same, however not a lot was known about God during the Old Testament.

157

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Haha. That I would agree with. However, I have no problem whatsoever go into detail (just like the trinity) about why there is no place of fiery torment. It isn’t a scriptural teaching.
[/quote]

No one has answered why it needs to be in the Bible.

158

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
From the hate being received in this thread, I don’t know if I should start fearing for my life…[/quote]
Haha, don’t worry about it. As long as you stay true to the Word you’ll always have those that hate you/it. I used to get frustrated about going through long explanations of evidence for belief only for someone to say, “only an idiot would believe.” All you can do is your part. God has to do the rest. [/quote]Pretty good man. Seriously. And from Quebec? If that isn’t proof positive of the faithfulness of almighty God I don’t know what is. I don’t think I can go along with your explanation of the old covenant and the church age, but, that’s alright.

159

OK read enough I will now chime in with the following.

Most people saved or not only talk about God’s love but forget He is a Holy God and a God of judgment and wrath against sin. There is a scripture that causes quite bit of controversy, Proverbs 17:15.
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to Jehovah.
If God justifies the wicked (sinner) i.e. allow them in heaven their way not His, He is an abomination to Himself. Or if He condemns the righteous He is an abomination to Himself.
With that said there is no way God will allow anyone into heaven outside of faith in Jesus as the Son of God.
Since the fall of Adam and even before God had a plan for man’s redemption and it is all in Jesus. How can we know this but only by His infallible Word. What most people do not understand is that we are not saved from our sins per se but from God Himself. Think of it we do not have a problem with sin we enjoy it daily. The Word says men love darkness and hate the light boy that is true if you can be honest with yourself. Jesus came to do much more than die for our sins and make a way to fellowship with the Father, He came to establish His Kingdom. He would say, “repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand” as He offered the right hand of fellowship.

Brother Chris, I grew up Catholic going to a Catholic school until 8th grade. I say this to you because after reading allot of your post here and elsewhere you seem to want to defend the Catholic church more than the Kingdom of God. They are not the same. jus sayin.

160

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Haha. That I would agree with. However, I have no problem whatsoever go into detail (just like the trinity) about why there is no place of fiery torment. It isn’t a scriptural teaching.
[/quote]

No one has answered why it needs to be in the Bible.[/quote]

Well I would assume because since the Bible is the word of God it would be important. But the Bible clearly teaches the concept of an eternal of “gnashing of teeth”.