[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How about that flaming sword guarding the tree of eternal life “from every way”? How come THAT hasnt been found now that we can see 100% of the earth?[/quote]
The flaming sword, since I presume it was a divine sword made from God, vanished after it was no longer necessary. I presume the Garden of Eden took a while to decay naturally. When it did, God most likely removed it or destroyed it.
Ya ya I know…how convenient.
Thing is I can say that about may things you believe.[/quote]
In Revelation it says that the tree of life is in heaven somehow moved from the garden of Eden so no more need of a flaming sword to protect it.[/quote]
Right. The impossible magic thing was poofed away by sky wizard, so you can make the same fucking retarded claim despite no shred of evidence.
You’re an idiot, seriously.[/quote]
You do not make any sense.
So, you read a book that said there is a flaming sword protecting a tree…and the same book says that it is in Heaven. But, you want proof of the flaming sword, but won’t accept the second part of the book that states that it is Heaven…you don’t see how you could possibly be wrong?
God did order the killing of those people. Rest assured God will not ask for such a brutal slaughter ever again from his people, for the last judgment and punishment of the wicked will be his and no one elses.
I will never kill an innocent child/adult/animal. That is not in God’s will.[/quote]
This is some twisted shit right here… seriously fucking twisted.
And, this is why I despise religion in every from.
I’m confident that you are only replying to the challenge this way because you were actually challenged… and that in that your instinct (rational, retrospective) would be to hope that the soldier would die defending the child.
I am also unfortunately confident that in the heat of battle, most people would fall upon their basic drives of fear of death and assume that they were doing the “lord’s” work… fucking sick.
[/quote]
You have to remember there are no more private revelation.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So can we all agree that religion is probably the most dangerous force on the planet? In both past and present, it is the key factor in justifying genocide (while at the same time telling people to love each other).
WHAT A FUCKING JOKE.[/quote]
Who has aided more genocide victims? Catholic Church.
Who has aided more HIV/AIDS victims? Catholic Church.
Who has aided more of the homeless/hungry? Catholic Church.
You take something from the Old Testament and apply it to the New Testament, your ass better back it up AC. Religion ain’t the most dangerous entity, it’s government. And, it usually has to do with race, not religion. Get off your high horse.
The Catholic Church and conservative Protestants and most other Protestants do not believe that there is personal revelation anymore. So, for someone to say they were “told” by God to do something, is merely a delusion.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Well, it appears I’ve struck a chord, hmmm???
I suppose me saying that something like that would never happen anytime in the future means nothing eh? As far as the New Testament goes, we are commanded to be loving and kind to one another, and even “offer the other cheek” when struck. The only time killing is acceptable is to defend your own life or the life of a loved one. That is how I know my sky wizard as you like to put it, WILL NEVER ask of that from me or anyone else. The last punishment will be made by him alone.
I know what God’s will is because it is laid out in scripture.
I have used a calm tone throughout this discussion. If you can’t accept what I have to say, then leave it be. This world is full of evil. No doubt you think Im one of them, even though I have stated I would never do such a thing.
I truly see sky wizard’s arch nemesis (Satan) twisting and convoluting your minds against God. This is something I expected and something I cannot change. Unless you have other questions to ask…
Let us continue, if anyone has anything further to ask me.
[/quote]
Let’s start with Genesis.
Genesis 2:17- But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 5:5- And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
So which one is it? (obviously, God LIED, right?)
[/quote]
Nope, you eat the apple you die spiritually. Christianity 101.
Thank you Brother Chris. I said that God wouldn’t tell me or anyone to do something like that. You explained it better. I was trying to convey the message that the Lord no longer gives private revelation, but I didn’t think of the term :S
Thanks for your assistance. I know I can’t explain things the best.
If I might ask another question, for the Christians or Muslims:
Is it a holy thing to brutally slaughter someone for making fun of a prophet? Say some children were making fun of a prophet (Jesus or Muhammad), would you be doing the right thing by brutally killing those children?
(and no, I’m not trying to refer to Jesus when he says he brings the sword and not peace).
Another thing, which I saw on another message board a long time ago: (I realize it violates Godwin’s law, but bear with me):
Hitler allowed Anne Frank to burn, and Christians call him evil.
God allows Anne Frank to burn for eternity, and Christians call him good.
Forbes, Brother Chris - Explain to me natural disasters(read my last post), I’m one of the only posters who has kept the tone civil, I would like a response.
[quote]tmay11 wrote:
The very idea of original sin. How is it that we are responsible for the sins of our past relatives and therefore need to be saved by Christ? Would this idea not be considered archaic and perverse in any other setting? ex - Punishing someone for a crime their Grandpa committed.[/quote]
We are not responsible for them. They are responsible for themselves, and we are responsible for ourselves. But when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they knew what was right and what was wrong. In essence, prior to their sin, they were almost like children, in the fact that they did not know right or wrong. Of course, they only knew one wrong, and that was eating from the tree. After though, their minds were opened, and the first clue to their new found knowledge was awareness of their nakedness. Anyways, we share that “knowledge” of good and evil. And since we are bombarded with these choices everyday, we constantly have to choose. Since we mostly choose evil (though this is subjective) then we require sanctification, which God gave through Jesus the Christ.
God does not choose to kill people in natural disasters.
Ecclesiates 9:11
“I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.”
True, the Bible foretold disasters for our day, such as ‘great earthquakes.’ (Luke 21:11) But God is no more responsible for the destruction caused by them than a weatherman is responsible for the damage done by a typhoon that he forecasts.
The Bible assures us of that at Job 34:12
“It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.”
[quote]Pangloss wrote:
If I might ask another question, for the Christians or Muslims:
Is it a holy thing to brutally slaughter someone for making fun of a prophet? Say some children were making fun of a prophet (Jesus or Muhammad), would you be doing the right thing by brutally killing those children?
[/quote]
No.
[quote]
(and no, I’m not trying to refer to Jesus when he says he brings the sword and not peace).
Another thing, which I saw on another message board a long time ago: (I realize it violates Godwin’s law, but bear with me):
Hitler allowed Anne Frank to burn, and Christians call him evil.
God allows Anne Frank to burn for eternity, and Christians call him good.
To me something is very wrong with this picture. [/quote]
No one (hyperbole) is innocent in the eyes of God. Everyone (again hyperbole, as Jesus isn’t) is guilty. So, God putting someone down is justified. However, Anne Frank didn’t do anything warranting capital punishment, and therefore we have the conclusion that Hitler is evil and God is not. I’m not sure how anyone knows that Anne Frank is in Hell.
Nope, you eat the apple you die spiritually. Christianity 101.[/quote]
I thought that sinners burned for eternity in Christianity - so how exactly does one die spiritually?[/quote]
Sinners = everyone except Jesus and Mary. Everyone is dead spiritually, as in they will not live for eternity. Once baptized in the name of Jesus, one is born again of the water and the spirit. After the initial sanctification, one relies on their merit.
[quote]tmay11 wrote:
The very idea of original sin. How is it that we are responsible for the sins of our past relatives and therefore need to be saved by Christ? Would this idea not be considered archaic and perverse in any other setting? ex - Punishing someone for a crime their Grandpa committed.[/quote]
We are not responsible for them. They are responsible for themselves, and we are responsible for ourselves. But when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they knew what was right and what was wrong. In essence, prior to their sin, they were almost like children, in the fact that they did not know right or wrong. Of course, they only knew one wrong, and that was eating from the tree. After though, their minds were opened, and the first clue to their new found knowledge was awareness of their nakedness. Anyways, we share that “knowledge” of good and evil. And since we are bombarded with these choices everyday, we constantly have to choose. Since we mostly choose evil (though this is subjective) then we require sanctification, which God gave through Jesus the Christ.
Original Sin. In our fallen nature, we experience suffering. Suffering is the direct result of sin or evil.
As well, God does not control evil, he allows evil. You could say because he allows evil he does evil, but that is another theological issue. So, God allows evil to happen. When he does allow evil, it’s because some good can come from that evil.
Such as a tsunami, it could bring a community together, bring charity out of people.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No one (hyperbole) is innocent in the eyes of God. Everyone (again hyperbole, as Jesus isn’t) is guilty. [/quote]
Are babies guilty?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
So, God putting someone down is justified. [/quote]
How does a finite crime warrant an infinite punishment?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
However, Anne Frank didn’t do anything warranting capital punishment, and therefore we have the conclusion that Hitler is evil and God is not. I’m not sure how anyone knows that Anne Frank is in Hell. [/quote]
But we all (Anne Frank) are guilty. Presumably this means that Anne’s punishment is hell. Anne was Jewish, so she had not accepted the good news, and therefore died in her sins.
Therefore, while not a certainty, it seems to me that we can rationally conclude that according to Christian theology, Anne is in hell.
Nope, you eat the apple you die spiritually. Christianity 101.[/quote]
I thought that sinners burned for eternity in Christianity - so how exactly does one die spiritually?[/quote]
Sinners = everyone except Jesus and Mary. Everyone is dead spiritually, as in they will not live for eternity. Once baptized in the name of Jesus, one is born again of the water and the spirit. After the initial sanctification, one relies on their merit.[/quote]
So you don’t believe in hell? I’m not trying to misinterpret you, but this seems to be what you are saying.
God lawfully has the right to execute judgment upon anyone. The Bible says that all people have sinned against God and are under his righteous judgment. Therefore, their execution is not an arbitrary killing nor is it murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. For example, we can lawfully take a life in defense of our selves, our families, our nations, etc.
When God authorizes the nation of Israel to wipe out a people, it is a lawful execution due to their rebellion and sin against God. Furthermore, such an extermination can be seen to be merciful by delivering the young into the hands of the Lord and possibly saving their souls by not giving them time to become “utterly sinful”.2 Additionally, further generations that would have arisen from the perverse culture, are likewise prevented from coming into existence and spreading their sin.[/quote]
I’ve read enough.
This UTTER BULLSHIT is exactly the reason we need to keep a firm check on the retard “Sky Wizard” people. This is why we need to keep religious beliefs out of our government, out of our schools, and out of our workplaces.
You, sir, for believing that the murder of one human being at the hands of another is permissible because the killers Magic-Man-Up-In-The-Sky said it was ok, are a fool, a monster, and a threat to humanity.[/quote]
Who is a Sky Wizard?
I do believe that religion should play no part in governing people and I disagree with whose who assert such things. However, totally disavowing the existence of of religion I don’t agree with either.
I haven’t been paying all that much attention to this whole thread, but I think if you toned down your rhetoric, I think we could have a decent conversation about it.
The Bible is just to big to deal with as a whole, we really have to narrow things down to get to the heart of the matter. Things in the bible mean something to religious folks that non-religious folk simply cannot understand. But if we drill down on it, I think you could understand even if you disagree.
As for Joshua, I do find it problematic. No doubt about it. However, admittedly I haven’t researched it or what it’s messages are and it’s point. It’s difficult to discern sometimes the line between making a point and listing facts. We are dealing with very ancient texts.
The very few texts that managed to survive in any fashion from that time period, are typically pretty violent and complete in their destruction.
Nope, you eat the apple you die spiritually. Christianity 101.[/quote]
I thought that sinners burned for eternity in Christianity - so how exactly does one die spiritually?[/quote]
Sinners = everyone except Jesus and Mary. Everyone is dead spiritually, as in they will not live for eternity. Once baptized in the name of Jesus, one is born again of the water and the spirit. After the initial sanctification, one relies on their merit.[/quote]
Interestingly enough, the original language texts don’t really mention the kind of fruit it is…
[quote]tmay11 wrote:
The very idea of original sin. How is it that we are responsible for the sins of our past relatives and therefore need to be saved by Christ? Would this idea not be considered archaic and perverse in any other setting? ex - Punishing someone for a crime their Grandpa committed.[/quote]
We are not responsible for them. They are responsible for themselves, and we are responsible for ourselves. But when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they knew what was right and what was wrong. In essence, prior to their sin, they were almost like children, in the fact that they did not know right or wrong. Of course, they only knew one wrong, and that was eating from the tree. After though, their minds were opened, and the first clue to their new found knowledge was awareness of their nakedness. Anyways, we share that “knowledge” of good and evil. And since we are bombarded with these choices everyday, we constantly have to choose. Since we mostly choose evil (though this is subjective) then we require sanctification, which God gave through Jesus the Christ.
God does not choose to kill people in natural disasters.
Ecclesiates 9:11
“I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.”
True, the Bible foretold disasters for our day, such as ‘great earthquakes.’ (Luke 21:11) But God is no more responsible for the destruction caused by them than a weatherman is responsible for the damage done by a typhoon that he forecasts.
The Bible assures us of that at Job 34:12
“It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.”
[/quote]
The problem most people have is that the look at it from one perspective, a human one. Death=bad=the end. From God’s perspective and indeed from a faithful folk, we should not see it that way. Death is not the end of life…It may hurt a bit, but it’s not the end. If terminating your body takes you to the next level which is better, then death is technically not a bad thing, but it only can be done by the creator of life. The living cannot decide when it’s a good idea to make death happen. We simply don’t have the knowledge to know when it’s is a good thing, because it can also be bad.
Obviously it’s a topic that can go on for a long time, but just look at it from a different perspective. We put dogs down to end their suffering, can God not do the same thing with us?
There was a story a while back where there was a little girl stuck in a well, the only way they could get her out was to break her leg, which hurt her really badly. But she lived. God likewise can take us out for own betterment.
Remember we are people of God, death does not end life, it ends the body’s constraints on life.We just don’t know what happens next, but we have to keep in mind there is more. Death does not end it.
[quote]forbes wrote:A long post centered around this:
"Thus says the Lord of hosts, <<<>>> and this: <<<>>> God lawfully has the right to execute judgment upon anyone. >>>[/quote]Excellent post Forbes and quite biblical. The whole thing, not just these 2 statements.
Even Nebuchadnezzar got it, after the God of Israel made Himself known to him in no uncertain terms. The famous king of Babylon had the following to say in the 4th Chapter of Daniel after the Lord God who reigns on high had demonstrated His power to him.
[quote] His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?” [/quote] I couldn’t possibly agree with ol Nebby more.
The problem most people have is that the look at it from one perspective, a human one. Death=bad=the end. From God’s perspective and indeed from a faithful folk, we should not see it that way. Death is not the end of life…It may hurt a bit, but it’s not the end. If terminating your body takes you to the next level which is better, then death is technically not a bad thing, but it only can be done by the creator of life. The living cannot decide when it’s a good idea to make death happen. We simply don’t have the knowledge to know when it’s is a good thing, because it can also be bad.
Obviously it’s a topic that can go on for a long time, but just look at it from a different perspective. We put dogs down to end their suffering, can God not do the same thing with us?
There was a story a while back where there was a little girl stuck in a well, the only way they could get her out was to break her leg, which hurt her really badly. But she lived. God likewise can take us out for own betterment.
Remember we are people of God, death does not end life, it ends the body’s constraints on life.We just don’t know what happens next, but we have to keep in mind there is more. Death does not end it.[/quote]
Hmmmm… where have I heard this type of reasoning before?
Nah… it’s cool. I’m sure that the Christians of today are not morally retarded enough to twist this into behaviors like genocide, terrorism, slave ownership etc… Yeah. There’s no way it could happen again. Right?
God lawfully has the right to execute judgment upon anyone. The Bible says that all people have sinned against God and are under his righteous judgment. Therefore, their execution is not an arbitrary killing nor is it murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. For example, we can lawfully take a life in defense of our selves, our families, our nations, etc.
When God authorizes the nation of Israel to wipe out a people, it is a lawful execution due to their rebellion and sin against God. Furthermore, such an extermination can be seen to be merciful by delivering the young into the hands of the Lord and possibly saving their souls by not giving them time to become “utterly sinful”.2 Additionally, further generations that would have arisen from the perverse culture, are likewise prevented from coming into existence and spreading their sin.[/quote]
I’ve read enough.
This UTTER BULLSHIT is exactly the reason we need to keep a firm check on the retard “Sky Wizard” people. This is why we need to keep religious beliefs out of our government, out of our schools, and out of our workplaces.
You, sir, for believing that the murder of one human being at the hands of another is permissible because the killers Magic-Man-Up-In-The-Sky said it was ok, are a fool, a monster, and a threat to humanity.[/quote]
Who is a Sky Wizard?
I do believe that religion should play no part in governing people and I disagree with whose who assert such things. However, totally disavowing the existence of of religion I don’t agree with either.
I haven’t been paying all that much attention to this whole thread, but I think if you toned down your rhetoric, I think we could have a decent conversation about it.
[/quote]
“an extermination can be seen to be merciful by delivering the young into the hands of the Lord and possibly saving their souls by not giving them time to become “utterly sinful”.”
Tone down my rhetoric when a grown man is defending genocide by saying it saves children by “delivering them into the hands of the Lord”?