[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I enjoy the art of debate, but more so I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. Make no mistake, I would debate an atheist or anyone else in much the same manner.
@RyuuKyuzo
[I live in the Southwest. Your own statistics prove that there are priests that make less than 30k.
There is not enough people helping the needy, but as it is the largest charity is the Church and the Church has the largest number of missionaries helping the needy. I am sure the needy don’t mind an oppressive, stupid religion being their benefactor.
If you think the Catholic Church is in favor with the public, you need to pick up a paper. We get it coming and going, one bad Catholic and we get roasted up and down for being corrupt, we put out a statement or a teaching according to our doctrines and we get roasted up and down for our oppression. Especially in America, even though Catholics make up the largest percentage of America, most of America is anti-Papist.
Non-comment doesn’t equal ignoring. I addressed your post between appointments and then had several meetings afterwards.
I will get to it soon enough.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I enjoy the art of debate, but more so I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. Make no mistake, I would debate an atheist or anyone else in much the same manner. [/quote]
I will have to point out that posting a video is not debating, it is correctly called posting a video.
Christianity and more specifically those of the Catholic Faith are not using their faith as a safety net, I can assure you. You cannot call something a safety net when all but one Apostle was martyred and thousands and thousands priests, religious, and layman have been martyred for their faith. Something that gets you killed in some countries and severally beat or jailed in others is not a safety net. I am not sure if you pay attention to the news, but Catholics in the Middle East have been being martyred for their faith for a long time up until recently when a Coptic Church was blown up by radical Muslims.
RyuuKyuzo, after following this forum for several years, I doubt your video is so compelling that Christians are completely nonplussed. More likely, it’s because these issues have been discussed to death, only to be resurrected and beaten to death again, in a never ending cycle of fruitless debate.
You won’t get anywhere for a very simple reason. For Christians, faith trumps everything else. Logic and facts are ok as long as they support one’s faith, but the moment they come into conflict, faith wins out every time.
As a recent example, I pointed out to Tiribulus that his belief in a God who chooses to save some from spiritual death while condemning everyone else to hell, despite their deepest desires to the contrary, turns men into puppets and directly contradicts the possibility of free will. He recognizes the logical conflict, but earnestly dismisses it as “worshiping at the altar of rationality”, firm in the knowledge that it actually makes sense to God; we just don’t understand it yet.
The capacity of the human mind to rationalize any belief is limitless, especially when one rejects logic and objective evidence as the foundation for one’s beliefs. Faith allows you to believe in anything, because by definition it doesn’t require actual facts.
Feel free to continue posting your videos and internet links. You might actually stir up another round of discussion. You won’t get anywhere, but that’s ok as long as you realize it up front.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. [/quote]
And you think that you’re going to change someone’s faith on a message board in a body building web site?
Why can’t you just go be happy in your atheism? Or is that not possible?
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< As a recent example, I pointed out to Tiribulus that his belief in a God who chooses to save some from spiritual death while condemning everyone else to hell, despite their deepest desires to the contrary, >>>[/quote]And Tiribulus will say for the 100th time that NOBODY (that’s nobody, nada, none, zilch, waves hand in front of Forlife’s face to see if he’s in there) will have ANY desire (that’s none, nada, zilch, zeeroh, hand continues to wave) for the one true and living God until He so inclines them by raising them from the universal state of spiritual death into which ALL (that’s everybody, whole human race, no exceptions, do you see my hand?) are conceived and born. The real wonder is why oh why is the holy offended God so unspeakably loving and gracious as to save ANYBODY?
I could have given you some examples to make your point which I essentially agree with. In fact I have already, but you are stuck on predestination and election which to me pose no problem at all.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< As a recent example, I pointed out to Tiribulus that his belief in a God who chooses to save some from spiritual death while condemning everyone else to hell, despite their deepest desires to the contrary, >>>[/quote]And Tiribulus will say for the 100th time that NOBODY (that’s nobody, nada, none, zilch, waves hand in front of Forlife’s face to see if he’s in there) will have ANY desire (that’s none, nada, zilch, zeeroh, hand continues to wave) for the one true and living God until He so inclines them by raising them from the universal state of spiritual death into which ALL (that’s everybody, whole human race, no exceptions, do you see my hand?) are conceived and born. The real wonder is why oh why is the holy offended God so unspeakably loving and gracious as to save ANYBODY?
I could have given you some examples to make your point which I essentially agree with. In fact I have already, but you are stuck on predestination and election which to me pose no problem at all.
[/quote]
Why are you repeating yourself, when that is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID? I understand that you believe EVERYBODY is spiritually dead. I understand that you believe God saved you from spiritual death, CONTRARY TO YOUR WILL, while condemning others to eternal suffering, CONTRARY TO THEIR WILL.
Again, my point was that this philosophy DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS FREE WILL. You can’t deny this, and your only response to the logical contradiction is that it only seems like a contradiction to our mortal minds, but in the mind of God it isn’t really a contradiction.
The whole “God’s ways are higher than our ways” argument is the last bastion for any argument against religious beliefs. It allows believers to rationalize all inconsistencies with a simple declaration that man’s mind is limited. There is literally no criticism that can cut through this smokescreen, because it completely rejects the need for logical consistency or facts.
[quote]forlife wrote:
As a recent example, I pointed out to Tiribulus that his belief in a God who chooses to save some from spiritual death while condemning everyone else to hell, despite their deepest desires to the contrary, turns men into puppets and directly contradicts the possibility of free will. He recognizes the logical conflict, but earnestly dismisses it as “worshiping at the altar of rationality”, firm in the knowledge that it actually makes sense to God; we just don’t understand it yet.
[/quote]
I wanted to point something out about this, actually. God does know who already is going to Heaven, and he does give those who are going to Heaven graces and gifts others do not get, he also knows that those that aren’t going to heaven, but by their own inherent sinfulness, not because he predestines them to go to Hell, but because they’ll never choose to go to Heaven.
There is true Predestination (like Aquinas and some others talked about), but Tirib follows double-predestination. There is only one “book” in Revelations that is the Book of Heaven, there is no second book that has a list of people who go to Hell, they could possibly (if they were baptized, &c.) go to Heaven, they just will never choose to do so, so God neither forces them to turn to God, nor bestows on them gifts as they haven’t freely asked for them. That is all there is to it.
Kind of like a wedding (sounds familiar), everyone is invited, but only certain people RSVP. Those people that RSVP’d are on the list, the people that didn’t RSVP wouldn’t even try to show up anyway, so no need for a second list saying that they can’t come in to the wedding.
Chris, that makes more sense to me than what Tiribulus believes. It supports true free will, and gives people the choice whether or not to accept the atonement of Christ, which is freely offered to all.
[quote]forlife wrote:
RyuuKyuzo, after following this forum for several years, I doubt your video is so compelling that Christians are completely nonplussed. More likely, it’s because these issues have been discussed to death, only to be resurrected and beaten to death again, in a never ending cycle of fruitless debate.
You won’t get anywhere for a very simple reason. For Christians, faith trumps everything else. Logic and facts are ok as long as they support one’s faith, but the moment they come into conflict, faith wins out every time.
As a recent example, I pointed out to Tiribulus that his belief in a God who chooses to save some from spiritual death while condemning everyone else to hell, despite their deepest desires to the contrary, turns men into puppets and directly contradicts the possibility of free will. He recognizes the logical conflict, but earnestly dismisses it as “worshiping at the altar of rationality”, firm in the knowledge that it actually makes sense to God; we just don’t understand it yet.
The capacity of the human mind to rationalize any belief is limitless, especially when one rejects logic and objective evidence as the foundation for one’s beliefs. Faith allows you to believe in anything, because by definition it doesn’t require actual facts.
Feel free to continue posting your videos and internet links. You might actually stir up another round of discussion. You won’t get anywhere, but that’s ok as long as you realize it up front. [/quote]
Hey! I for one find it very logical.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@RyuuKyuzo
[I live in the Southwest. Your own statistics prove that there are priests that make less than 30k.
There is not enough people helping the needy, but as it is the largest charity is the Church and the Church has the largest number of missionaries helping the needy. I am sure the needy don’t mind an oppressive, stupid religion being their benefactor.
If you think the Catholic Church is in favor with the public, you need to pick up a paper. We get it coming and going, one bad Catholic and we get roasted up and down for being corrupt, we put out a statement or a teaching according to our doctrines and we get roasted up and down for our oppression. Especially in America, even though Catholics make up the largest percentage of America, most of America is anti-Papist.
Non-comment doesn’t equal ignoring. I addressed your post between appointments and then had several meetings afterwards.
I will get to it soon enough.[/quote]
Actually, most charities today are secular and for good reason. Here an article outlining the incompetence of religious charities: Give to Charity Directly, Not to Church
Though, this really is the only way your religion has survived up until now, by taking advantage of the poor and starving. A joke:
A missionary went to Africa to spread the word of Jesus. Once there, he educates them in the ways of his religion, makes them wear clothes, puts an end to their tribal celebrations and indoctrinates sexual repression into them. An African villager approaches the missionary one day and asks, “Would God send a man who has never heard of Jesus to Hell?” The Missionary responds “why, no, he most certainly would not.”
The villager replies, “THEN WHY DID YOU TELL ME?”…
Hilarious. But, it also brings up a good point. Your God cannot send those who know nothing about him to hell, otherwise he is not a loving God at all, actually that would make him rather sadistic. But at the same time, the lives of these villagers was better, more free before they learned about all these rules. Now, if they fail to live up to these rules they will go to hell. This is absolutely disgusting. Every single person you teach about your religion now has to conform to it or else suffer an eternity of hellfire. Anyone you tell about your God that doesn’t obey and is sent to hell, I would consider YOU personally responsible for their suffering. If you had any heart you would never speak of this God of yours to anybody!
Catholicism is corrupt. It was created by corrupt men in order to gain power and that’s all it’s ever done. I personally believe Jesus existed and was a very wise man, but those corrupt catholic men have taken his words and twisted them in order to take advantage of whatever message he had (hence all the contradictions in the bible).
Actually, non responding to my comment is pretty much the DEFINITION of ignoring it. It’s not as though you said “hmm… I’ll get back to you on that”, you just completely ignored it.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I enjoy the art of debate, but more so I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. Make no mistake, I would debate an atheist or anyone else in much the same manner. [/quote]
I will have to point out that posting a video is not debating, it is correctly called posting a video.
Christianity and more specifically those of the Catholic Faith are not using their faith as a safety net, I can assure you. You cannot call something a safety net when all but one Apostle was martyred and thousands and thousands priests, religious, and layman have been martyred for their faith. Something that gets you killed in some countries and severally beat or jailed in others is not a safety net. I am not sure if you pay attention to the news, but Catholics in the Middle East have been being martyred for their faith for a long time up until recently when a Coptic Church was blown up by radical Muslims.[/quote]
Have I not also adressed other issues? The video IS debate material. If you want to get into it, I’m waiting.
It absolutely is a safety net. Ancient man was notorious for making up shit to explain what he didn’t know. Christianity is just another example of man’s ego.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. [/quote]
And you think that you’re going to change someone’s faith on a message board in a body building web site?
Why can’t you just go be happy in your atheism? Or is that not possible?
[/quote]
Notice the title of the thread. If you don’t want to explain the short commings of your religion AND you have no intention of opening your mind to the possibility that it is false, then YOU are the one with no reason to be here, not me.
Why can’t you just go be happy in your theism? Or is that not possible?
@RyuuKyuzo
One topic at a time because I don’t have the time to be doing a lot of stuff. We’ll go with charities first.
Most =/= biggest.
And, I am sorry. I went down to Haiti during the first Hurricane, I got involved with Catholic Relief Services and they as well as most Catholic Charities (The Poor of Saint Vincent de Paul, Food for the Poor, &c.) have a 4% administration cut on all donations. That means administration costs are limited to four cents for every dollar donated. That is better than other bloated “charities” where they don’t even put out what their admin cut is of the donations.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I enjoy the art of debate, but more so I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. Make no mistake, I would debate an atheist or anyone else in much the same manner. [/quote]
I will have to point out that posting a video is not debating, it is correctly called posting a video.
Christianity and more specifically those of the Catholic Faith are not using their faith as a safety net, I can assure you. You cannot call something a safety net when all but one Apostle was martyred and thousands and thousands priests, religious, and layman have been martyred for their faith. Something that gets you killed in some countries and severally beat or jailed in others is not a safety net. I am not sure if you pay attention to the news, but Catholics in the Middle East have been being martyred for their faith for a long time up until recently when a Coptic Church was blown up by radical Muslims.[/quote]
Have I not also adressed other issues? The video IS debate material. If you want to get into it, I’m waiting.
It absolutely is a safety net. Ancient man was notorious for making up shit to explain what he didn’t know. Christianity is just another example of man’s ego.[/quote]
Really? So, what you are saying is that ancient man would rather die than to admit they made something up to save their own hide? Must be the ego. Also, you think Father Maximilian Kolbe was an egotistical man, who took places with a Jewish prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp during WWII and was beat and shot death. MASSIVE EGO! His ego was so big, he allowed himself to be killed in place of someone else, what a bastard! He should be more humble!
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
@RyuuKyuzo
One topic at a time because I don’t have the time to be doing a lot of stuff. We’ll go with charities first.
Most =/= biggest.
And, I am sorry. I went down to Haiti during the first Hurricane, I got involved with Catholic Relief Services and they as well as most Catholic Charities (The Poor of Saint Vincent de Paul, Food for the Poor, &c.) have a 4% administration cut on all donations. That means administration costs are limited to four cents for every dollar donated. That is better than other bloated “charities” where they don’t even put out what their admin cut is of the donations.
[/quote]
I bring up new issues because you seem to only be focussing on the least important things I bring up.
By most I meant biggest. Take welfare for example, the largest charity in the U.S.
Granted, it’s coercive, but secular none the less. Did you even look at ther article? It doesn’t seem like you did given your response.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I enjoy the art of debate, but more so I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. Make no mistake, I would debate an atheist or anyone else in much the same manner. [/quote]
I will have to point out that posting a video is not debating, it is correctly called posting a video.
Christianity and more specifically those of the Catholic Faith are not using their faith as a safety net, I can assure you. You cannot call something a safety net when all but one Apostle was martyred and thousands and thousands priests, religious, and layman have been martyred for their faith. Something that gets you killed in some countries and severally beat or jailed in others is not a safety net. I am not sure if you pay attention to the news, but Catholics in the Middle East have been being martyred for their faith for a long time up until recently when a Coptic Church was blown up by radical Muslims.[/quote]
Have I not also adressed other issues? The video IS debate material. If you want to get into it, I’m waiting.
It absolutely is a safety net. Ancient man was notorious for making up shit to explain what he didn’t know. Christianity is just another example of man’s ego.[/quote]
Really? So, what you are saying is that ancient man would rather die than to admit they made something up to save their own hide? Must be the ego. Also, you think Father Maximilian Kolbe was an egotistical man, who took places with a Jewish prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp during WWII and was beat and shot death. MASSIVE EGO! His ego was so big, he allowed himself to be killed in place of someone else, what a bastard! He should be more humble![/quote]
Wow. Nothing is quite so amazing and entertaining as a religious man’s ability to twist semantics and logic so shamelessly. History is literally filled with examples of egotistical men killing and dieing for their foolish pride. Something else worth noting, early man was very stupid and easy to fool into just about anything.
Also, you don’t have to be a Catholic to save a Jews life. What a stupid argument, as though Christianity is validated by the selflessness of one man in an act not predicated on being a Catholic. This event proves nothing either way, it’s simply a non-sequitur you conjured up to obfuscate the issue.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. [/quote]
And you think that you’re going to change someone’s faith on a message board in a body building web site?
Why can’t you just go be happy in your atheism? Or is that not possible?
[/quote]
Notice the title of the thread. If you don’t want to explain the short commings of your religion AND you have no intention of opening your mind to the possibility that it is false, then YOU are the one with no reason to be here, not me.
Why can’t you just go be happy in your theism? Or is that not possible?
[/quote]
LOL you can’t turn this one around junior. You are the one posting such claims, not me. And yes I understand the title of the thread. But I’m always curious as to why so many young male atheists feel it’s their duty to try to convert Christians (as if it can happen on a message board if at all). Is it part of your atheist religion to convert so many people per year? Or is it that you guys are so unhappy that you want to lash out? One or the other. In reality you’re no better than what you rail against. You’re are like the overbearing fundamentalist Christian preaching on the street corner trying to push their beliefs in other people’s faces. And you deserve about the same amount of respect.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. [/quote]
And you think that you’re going to change someone’s faith on a message board in a body building web site?
Why can’t you just go be happy in your atheism? Or is that not possible?
[/quote]
Notice the title of the thread. If you don’t want to explain the short commings of your religion AND you have no intention of opening your mind to the possibility that it is false, then YOU are the one with no reason to be here, not me.
Why can’t you just go be happy in your theism? Or is that not possible?
[/quote]
LOL you can’t turn this one around junior. You are the one posting such claims, not me. And yes I understand the title of the thread. But I’m always curious as to why so many young male atheists feel it’s their duty to try to convert Christians (as if it can happen on a message board if at all). Is it part of your atheist religion to convert so many people per year? Or is it that you guys are so unhappy that you want to lash out? One or the other. In reality you’re no better than what you rail against. You’re are like the overbearing fundamentalist Christian preaching on the street corner trying to push their beliefs in other people’s faces. And you deserve about the same amount of respect.
[/quote]
Why are you so sure I’m an atheist? I’ve made no claim as such and have even hinted towards the contrary.
The only “claims” I’m making are that your claims are false. Interesting though, that the greatest insults you can throw at me involve finding symmetry between me and Christianity (or, religion in general). Whatever, the point is this is a thread made specifically for persons such as myself to bring up contradictions and for Christians to attempt to reconcile them. The only thing that stands out about me is that I’m rather good at it. That’s the only reason you are attacking me in this manner. I didn’t see you questioning the motives of anyone else. You don’t need to be so stubborn. Look at the evidence unbiased and the answer is clear.
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]RyuuKyuzo wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
RyuuKyuzo,
I’d like to ask you a question if I may; what exactly do you hope to gain by all this?
[/quote]
I would like to help persons detach from their safety nets. [/quote]
And you think that you’re going to change someone’s faith on a message board in a body building web site?
Why can’t you just go be happy in your atheism? Or is that not possible?
[/quote]
Notice the title of the thread. If you don’t want to explain the short commings of your religion AND you have no intention of opening your mind to the possibility that it is false, then YOU are the one with no reason to be here, not me.
Why can’t you just go be happy in your theism? Or is that not possible?
[/quote]
LOL you can’t turn this one around junior. You are the one posting such claims, not me. And yes I understand the title of the thread. But I’m always curious as to why so many young male atheists feel it’s their duty to try to convert Christians (as if it can happen on a message board if at all). Is it part of your atheist religion to convert so many people per year? Or is it that you guys are so unhappy that you want to lash out? One or the other. In reality you’re no better than what you rail against. You’re are like the overbearing fundamentalist Christian preaching on the street corner trying to push their beliefs in other people’s faces. And you deserve about the same amount of respect.
[/quote]
Why are you so sure I’m an atheist? I’ve made no claim as such and have even hinted towards the contrary.
The only “claims” I’m making are that your claims are false. Interesting though, that the greatest insults you can throw at me involve finding symmetry between me and Christianity (or, religion in general). Whatever, the point is this is a thread made specifically for persons such as myself to bring up contradictions and for Christians to attempt to reconcile them. The only thing that stands out about me is that I’m rather good at it. That’s the only reason you are attacking me in this manner. I didn’t see you questioning the motives of anyone else. You don’t need to be so stubborn. Look at the evidence unbiased and the answer is clear. [/quote]
You are questioning alleged contradictions (which do not exist…yeah I know you think they do). And I’m questioning your motives. Simple.