[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I absolutely agree with the above. I only included the homily by our young friar here because even he is renouncing the idea of God loving sinners, but hating sin. God will not be throwing people He loves into the lake of fire as weeps about how sorry He is. It is His glorious justice being displayed and I do thank Him beyond words that it won’t be me AND that those He redeems will find no anguish in the event.[/quote]
You sound boastful there, Tirib. You wanna tell us what you did to earn yourself guaranteed salvation?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I absolutely agree with the above. I only included the homily by our young friar here because even he is renouncing the idea of God loving sinners, but hating sin. God will not be throwing people He loves into the lake of fire as weeps about how sorry He is. It is His glorious justice being displayed and I do thank Him beyond words that it won’t be me AND that those He redeems will find no anguish in the event.[/quote]You sound boastful there, Tirib. You wanna tell us what you did to earn yourself guaranteed salvation?[/quote]It is exactly because my salvation does not depend upon me that it is guaranteed.
[quote]Romans 8:28-30
28-And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29-For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30-and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[/quote]Praise His holy name. Listen my dear friend. I KNOW with mathematical certainly that if my eternity depends one wit upon me I am damned where I sit. Boastful he says. tsk tsk.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I absolutely agree with the above. I only included the homily by our young friar here because even he is renouncing the idea of God loving sinners, but hating sin. God will not be throwing people He loves into the lake of fire as weeps about how sorry He is. It is His glorious justice being displayed and I do thank Him beyond words that it won’t be me AND that those He redeems will find no anguish in the event.[/quote]You sound boastful there, Tirib. You wanna tell us what you did to earn yourself guaranteed salvation?[/quote]It is exactly because my salvation does not depend upon me that it is guaranteed.
[/quote]
So, if you walk away from God, you’re going to be saved?
Selected for divine adoption by an eternal decree of God (Eph 1:4). Predestination is a mystery revealed but not fully understood; what we know for certain is that God is free to act as he chooses (Ps 135:6) and man is free to accept or reject his blessings (Rom 2:6-8; Sir 15:11-13). No one is predestined by God for eternal damnation (CCC 1037). Jesus is the eldest brother in the family of faith. As adopted children, we look up to him as the perfect image of Sonship and the perfect example of filial obedience to the Father (Jn 15:10).
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, if you walk away from God, you’re going to be saved? >>>[/quote]No. That would be proof positive that I was not one of His. Yes, I know I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. I know that IF I endure to the end I’ll be saved. I know I am running a race with a prize that is Christ Jesus. I know that I must show my faith by my works or my faith is dead. I know that he who says he knows Christ and keeps not His commandments is a liar and His truth is not in him. All absolute confirmation of the beloved doctrine of the preservation of the saints (I like that better than perseverance).
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, if you walk away from God, you’re going to be saved? >>>[/quote]No. That would be proof positive that I was not one of His. Yes, I know I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. I know that IF I endure to the end I’ll be saved. I know I am running a race with a prize that is Christ Jesus. I know that I must show my faith by my works or my faith is dead. I know that he who says he knows Christ and keeps not His commandments is a liar and His truth is not in him. All absolute confirmation of the beloved doctrine of the preservation of the saints (I like that better than perseverance).
[/quote]
Perseverance is from the Bible.
I know a man, he is an Elder of his congregation, a Calvinist congregation like you. He was known as a saint in his congregation and in a few others, gave forty hours a week to the congregation and to the poor, held Bible studies for young children, and taught them the life of Jesus. Never drank, tithed a large portion of his income, never smoked, never cussed (this is one for you Zeb), never let one of his brethren go unaided in a time of hardship.
He recently left his congregation, hasn’t been back and hasn’t gone to service, told me he doesn’t even pray anymore, would rather sell and buy energy derivatives and play golf full time until he dies. Is he going to Heaven?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, if you walk away from God, you’re going to be saved? >>>[/quote]No. That would be proof positive that I was not one of His. Yes, I know I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. I know that IF I endure to the end I’ll be saved. I know I am running a race with a prize that is Christ Jesus. I know that I must show my faith by my works or my faith is dead. I know that he who says he knows Christ and keeps not His commandments is a liar and His truth is not in him. All absolute confirmation of the beloved doctrine of the preservation of the saints (I like that better than perseverance).
[/quote]
Perseverance is from the Bible.
I know a man, he is an Elder of his congregation, a Calvinist congregation like you. He was known as a saint in his congregation and in a few others, gave forty hours a week to the congregation and to the poor, held Bible studies for young children, and taught them the life of Jesus. Never drank, tithed a large portion of his income, never smoked, never cussed (this is one for you Zeb), never let one of his brethren go unaided in a time of hardship.
He recently left his congregation, hasn’t been back and hasn’t gone to service, told me he doesn’t even pray anymore, would rather sell and buy energy derivatives and play golf full time until he dies. Is he going to Heaven?[/quote]I don’t know. (being a Calvinist is not a prerequisite to right standing with God BTW). Does he proclaim his unbelief in terms of a denial of the Lord and or fatally heretical doctrine? Is he openly blasphemous and or flagrantly sinful?
I went through a protracted time of horrendous backsliding during which I made an active effort to convince God He was wasting His time with me. Didn’t work. He brought me back 100 times stronger than I was before. Could be this man is going through a similar time or could be that he is one of whom Christ said , in essence that, despite all your wonderful works I never knew you.
Would he go to heaven were he to die today? I don’t know that either based on what you’ve told me. Would I have gone to heaven had Christ returned while I was screaming drunken profanity at Him and daring Him to kill me without the chance to repent? All I can say is that He didn’t return then and I did repent.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, if you walk away from God, you’re going to be saved? >>>[/quote]No. That would be proof positive that I was not one of His. Yes, I know I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. I know that IF I endure to the end I’ll be saved. I know I am running a race with a prize that is Christ Jesus. I know that I must show my faith by my works or my faith is dead. I know that he who says he knows Christ and keeps not His commandments is a liar and His truth is not in him. All absolute confirmation of the beloved doctrine of the preservation of the saints (I like that better than perseverance).
[/quote]
Perseverance is from the Bible.
I know a man, he is an Elder of his congregation, a Calvinist congregation like you. He was known as a saint in his congregation and in a few others, gave forty hours a week to the congregation and to the poor, held Bible studies for young children, and taught them the life of Jesus. Never drank, tithed a large portion of his income, never smoked, never cussed (this is one for you Zeb), never let one of his brethren go unaided in a time of hardship.
He recently left his congregation, hasn’t been back and hasn’t gone to service, told me he doesn’t even pray anymore, would rather sell and buy energy derivatives and play golf full time until he dies. Is he going to Heaven?[/quote]
I don’t know. (being a Calvinist is not a prerequisite to right standing with God BTW). Does he proclaim his unbelief in terms of a denial of the Lord and or fatally heretical doctrine? Is he openly blasphemous and or flagrantly sinful?
[/quote]
I made a mistake…I meant to say until he died. The family friend of mine, father of my old youth pastor. I respect this man, so I won’t go into his behavior in respect for the dead, but let’s just say his behavior is enough for some of his congregation to publicly say that he was never actually saved, and was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. So, it wasn’t “Christian” like.
Yeah, sorry. It was a slip of the finger, I guess I have as much trouble typing on my computer as I do on my phone. The man is dead, never came back to his congregation.
This man talked about personal Lord and Savior, he brought tons of people to the congregation, baptized people, modern day Calvinist St. Paul. Is he saved now that he has denounced it all and died?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, if you walk away from God, you’re going to be saved? >>>[/quote]No. That would be proof positive that I was not one of His. Yes, I know I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. I know that IF I endure to the end I’ll be saved. I know I am running a race with a prize that is Christ Jesus. I know that I must show my faith by my works or my faith is dead. I know that he who says he knows Christ and keeps not His commandments is a liar and His truth is not in him. All absolute confirmation of the beloved doctrine of the preservation of the saints (I like that better than perseverance).
[/quote]
Perseverance is from the Bible.
I know a man, he is an Elder of his congregation, a Calvinist congregation like you. He was known as a saint in his congregation and in a few others, gave forty hours a week to the congregation and to the poor, held Bible studies for young children, and taught them the life of Jesus. Never drank, tithed a large portion of his income, never smoked, never cussed (this is one for you Zeb), never let one of his brethren go unaided in a time of hardship.
He recently left his congregation, hasn’t been back and hasn’t gone to service, told me he doesn’t even pray anymore, would rather sell and buy energy derivatives and play golf full time until he dies. Is he going to Heaven?[/quote]I don’t know. (being a Calvinist is not a prerequisite to right standing with God BTW). Does he proclaim his unbelief in terms of a denial of the Lord and or fatally heretical doctrine? Is he openly blasphemous and or flagrantly sinful?
I went through a protracted time of horrendous backsliding during which I made an active effort to convince God He was wasting His time with me. Didn’t work. He brought me back 100 times stronger than I was before. Could be this man is going through a similar time or could be that he is one of whom Christ said , in essence that, despite all your wonderful works I never knew you.
Would he go to heaven were he to die today? I don’t know that either based on what you’ve told me. Would I have gone to heaven had Christ returned while I was screaming drunken profanity at Him and daring Him to kill me without the chance to repent? All I can say is that He didn’t return then and I did repent.
[/quote]
Tirib,
I am curious… Do you consider yourself a 5 point calvinist (as in TULIP)? If not which parts don’t you like?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
It is exactly because my salvation does not depend upon me that it is guaranteed.
[/quote]
Ah, this is where we differ. It denies freewill and culpability. We have to accept God’s grace with humility. We have to act in accordance with our faith and live a faithful life. Through our choice and God’s grace we are saved. God will not save those who don’t want to be, otherwise we would not have freewill.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I absolutely agree with the above. I only included the homily by our young friar here because even he is renouncing the idea of God loving sinners, but hating sin. God will not be throwing people He loves into the lake of fire as weeps about how sorry He is. It is His glorious justice being displayed and I do thank Him beyond words that it won’t be me AND that those He redeems will find no anguish in the event.[/quote]
Who did Christ die for, the righteous or for sinners?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I absolutely agree with the above. I only included the homily by our young friar here because even he is renouncing the idea of God loving sinners, but hating sin. God will not be throwing people He loves into the lake of fire as weeps about how sorry He is. It is His glorious justice being displayed and I do thank Him beyond words that it won’t be me AND that those He redeems will find no anguish in the event.[/quote]
Who did Christ die for, the righteous or for sinners? [/quote]
he died for all of us, we are all sinners. It is our choice whether we accept him as our Lord and Savior.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Tirib,
I am curious… Do you consider yourself a 5 point calvinist (as in TULIP)? If not which parts don’t you like?[/quote] Yes,
Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited (I prefer particular) atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance (I prefer preservation) of the saints
I absolutely own all 5 points (not articulated that way by Calvin himself) as most exalted and glorious truths regarding the salvation of the Lord Jesus. No, it is not possible to have that enormous debate here. I see them simply staring at me everywhere in scripture. The God I worship cannot fail. If even one soul He earnestly purposes to finally save winds up in hell then he is the most pitiful of failures.
(Please read this post as if spoken in an even friendly voice)
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Who did Christ die for, the righteous or for sinners? [/quote] All those sinners given Him by the father. There are none righteous, no not even one. How well I know. Nobody’s will is freer than God’s Pat. Every last person He chooses to leave in their sin is absolutely deserving of all of His wrath just as I am. It is only His wondrous eternal electing grace that differentiates the redeemed and the lost. If God saved those who freely chose Him as sinners, His heavenly praise would consist of a chorus of chirping crickets for all eternity (reverently spoken).
The reason you don’t see this my friend is because you don’t understand sin. Neither the scriptural declaration nor your own. Sin IS death. The dead do nothing until raised.
I am not yelling, and to the extent that I induced this vitriolic bitterness in you, which I fear may be more than I wish, I am truly sorry. I still have some growing up to do.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
(Please read this post as if spoken in an even friendly voice)
[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Who did Christ die for, the righteous or for sinners? [/quote] All those sinners given Him by the father. There are none righteous, no not even one. How well I know. Nobody’s will is freer than God’s Pat. Every last person He chooses to leave in their sin is absolutely deserving of all of His wrath just as I am. It is only His wondrous eternal electing grace that differentiates the redeemed and the lost. If God saved those who freely chose Him as sinners, His heavenly praise would consist of a chorus of chirping crickets for all eternity (reverently spoken).
The reason you don’t see this my friend is because you don’t understand sin. Neither the scriptural declaration nor your own. Sin IS death. The dead do nothing until raised.
I am not yelling, and to the extent that I induced this vitriolic bitterness in you, which I fear may be more than I wish, I am truly sorry. I still have some growing up to do.
[/quote]
The man that doesn’t agree with mortal and venial sin or understand Purgatory is saying people don’t understand sin.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Tirib,
I am curious… Do you consider yourself a 5 point calvinist (as in TULIP)? If not which parts don’t you like?[/quote] Yes,
Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited (I prefer particular) atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance (I prefer preservation) of the saints
I absolutely own all 5 points (not articulated that way by Calvin himself) as most exalted and glorious truths regarding the salvation of the Lord Jesus. No, it is not possible to have that enormous debate here. I see them simply staring at me everywhere in scripture. The God I worship cannot fail. If even one soul He earnestly purposes to finally save winds up in hell then he is the most pitiful of failures.
[/quote]
I didn’t want to “have that enormous debate here”. I was merely curious.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< This man talked about personal Lord and Savior, he brought tons of people to the congregation, baptized people, modern day Calvinist St. Paul. Is he saved now that he has denounced it all and died?[/quote]Let me clarify this. There is no holy x-ray vision whereby men are able to discern in formulaic fashion who is and is not one of the elect in Christ. John says the children of God and the children of the devil (who God does not love, unless He loves the devils children) are obvious. They who do not practice righteousness and or do not love the brethren are children of the devil. Paul tells us that flagrant unrepentant sin constitutes a wicked man to be removed from your midst. He also names heretics to be delivered to Satan so that they can be taught not to blaspheme.
I claim no equation or special gift that enables me to see the lost and saved. All I do is look. When I see someone in a lifestyle of flagrant sin and or fatally heretical doctrine I call them to repentance for the forgiveness of sins and the salvation of their souls. Upon refusal they are to be treated as unbelievers. Will they be in heaven eventually? I have no idea. Would they be the Lord’s if they died right now? If I take the Word seriously then probably not. I didn’t know this man and even if I did that doesn’t give me instant infallible discernment on his subjective state.
I’m betting there are people that can proclaim the doctrines of grace in amazing profundity in my very own church that will be in hell. I will say again. I cannot know for certain who IS saved aside from myself. I can, and so can any believer, be pretty sure in a large % of cases who IS NOT based on some pretty simple biblical declarations. Open practicing homosexuals, Christ denying self proclaimed atheists and cultic disciples of Arius of Alexandria are presently lost or my bible has no purpose or meaning. How can I claim to love somebody who I am telling they are OK when God clearly states they aren’t?
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Tirib,
I am curious… Do you consider yourself a 5 point calvinist (as in TULIP)? If not which parts don’t you like?[/quote] Yes,
Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited (I prefer particular) atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance (I prefer preservation) of the saints
I absolutely own all 5 points (not articulated that way by Calvin himself) as most exalted and glorious truths regarding the salvation of the Lord Jesus. No, it is not possible to have that enormous debate here. I see them simply staring at me everywhere in scripture. The God I worship cannot fail. If even one soul He earnestly purposes to finally save winds up in hell then he is the most pitiful of failures.
[/quote]
I didn’t want to “have that enormous debate here”. I was merely curious. [/quote]Well fair enough. It’s just that what usually follows is something like “WHAT!!! what kinda nutjob doesn’t believe Jesus died to pay for everybody’s sins?”. This kind. The kind who believes that if He’d done that then they’d all be infallibly saved. Then would come a human analogy by them about how some interaction between men is supposed to prove what God almighty must be like (creating God in their own image). And off we go. I’m not telling you to shut up and I am most assuredly not afraid to defend my beliefs, but mind bendingly profound doctrine that reaches into the divine mind beyond where we can even reliably go does not lend itself well to forum debates.
Don’t be afraid to ask me questions though if you want to. I don’t mean it like that as it wouldn’t be very Christian to refuse to address somebody’s honest curiosity.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< This man talked about personal Lord and Savior, he brought tons of people to the congregation, baptized people, modern day Calvinist St. Paul. Is he saved now that he has denounced it all and died?[/quote]Let me clarify this. There is no holy x-ray vision whereby men are able to discern in formulaic fashion who is and is not one of the elect in Christ. John says the children of God and the children of the devil (who God does not love, unless He loves the devils children) are obvious. They who do not practice righteousness and or do not love the brethren are children of the devil. Paul tells us that flagrant unrepentant sin constitutes a wicked man to be removed from your midst. He also names heretics to be delivered to Satan so that they can be taught not to blaspheme.
I claim no equation or special gift that enables me to see the lost and saved. All I do is look. When I see someone in a lifestyle of flagrant sin and or fatally heretical doctrine I call them to repentance for the forgiveness of sins and the salvation of their souls. Upon refusal they are to be treated as unbelievers. Will they be in heaven eventually? I have no idea. Would they be the Lord’s if they died right now? If I take the Word seriously then probably not. I didn’t know this man and even if I did that doesn’t give me instant infallible discernment on his subjective state.
I’m betting there are people that can proclaim the doctrines of grace in amazing profundity in my very own church that will be in hell. I will say again. I cannot know for certain who IS saved aside from myself. I can, and so can any believer, be pretty sure in a large % of cases who IS NOT based on some pretty simple biblical declarations. Open practicing homosexuals, Christ denying self proclaimed atheists and cultic disciples of Arius of Alexandria are presently lost or my bible has no purpose or meaning. How can I claim to love somebody who I am telling they are OK when God clearly states they aren’t?[/quote]
So, you completely avoided the question. Is the man saved or is he not? He denounced the faith, said it was a fun 70 year emotional ride, but he was done, all a lie.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, you completely avoided the question. Is the man saved or is he not? He denounced the faith, said it was a fun 70 year emotional ride, but he was done, all a lie.[/quote]I did not avoid the question Chris. I would be surprised if a man who went to his grave calling the gospel a lie finds himself in glory. I am however loath to be quick on a guy who’s mere existence I am only aware of through a story from somebody on the internet. This would go for anybody. I do not make sport of judging someone’s salvation. If a situation presents itself where I am obliged to apply biblical principle I do. I do not prowl through my days seeking those who I may skewer with a lightning bolt.