Bible Contradictions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
381

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, you completely avoided the question. Is the man saved or is he not? He denounced the faith, said it was a fun 70 year emotional ride, but he was done, all a lie.[/quote]I did not avoid the question Chris. I would be surprised if a man who went to his grave calling the gospel a lie finds himself in glory. I am however loath to be quick on a guy who’s mere existence I am only aware of through a story from somebody on the internet. This would go for anybody. I do not make sport of judging someone’s salvation. If a situation presents itself where I am obliged to apply biblical principle I do. I do not prowl through my days seeking those who I may skewer with a lightning bolt.
[/quote]

…I’m not asking you to make sport of anything. The man did not acknowledge Jesus in front of men until the day he died. Now, what does the Bible say about people that forsake Jesus in front of men? Simple question.

382

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
(Please read this post as if spoken in an even friendly voice)

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Who did Christ die for, the righteous or for sinners? [/quote] All those sinners given Him by the father. There are none righteous, no not even one. How well I know. Nobody’s will is freer than God’s Pat. Every last person He chooses to leave in their sin is absolutely deserving of all of His wrath just as I am. It is only His wondrous eternal electing grace that differentiates the redeemed and the lost. If God saved those who freely chose Him as sinners, His heavenly praise would consist of a chorus of chirping crickets for all eternity (reverently spoken).

The reason you don’t see this my friend is because you don’t understand sin. Neither the scriptural declaration nor your own. Sin IS death. The dead do nothing until raised.

I am not yelling, and to the extent that I induced this vitriolic bitterness in you, which I fear may be more than I wish, I am truly sorry. I still have some growing up to do.
[/quote]

“All those sinners given Him by the father.” ← Who are they? Be specific.

383

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< This man talked about personal Lord and Savior, he brought tons of people to the congregation, baptized people, modern day Calvinist St. Paul. Is he saved now that he has denounced it all and died?[/quote]Let me clarify this. There is no holy x-ray vision whereby men are able to discern in formulaic fashion who is and is not one of the elect in Christ. John says the children of God and the children of the devil (who God does not love, unless He loves the devils children) are obvious. They who do not practice righteousness and or do not love the brethren are children of the devil. Paul tells us that flagrant unrepentant sin constitutes a wicked man to be removed from your midst. He also names heretics to be delivered to Satan so that they can be taught not to blaspheme.

I claim no equation or special gift that enables me to see the lost and saved. All I do is look. When I see someone in a lifestyle of flagrant sin and or fatally heretical doctrine I call them to repentance for the forgiveness of sins and the salvation of their souls. Upon refusal they are to be treated as unbelievers. Will they be in heaven eventually? I have no idea. Would they be the Lord’s if they died right now? If I take the Word seriously then probably not. I didn’t know this man and even if I did that doesn’t give me instant infallible discernment on his subjective state.

I’m betting there are people that can proclaim the doctrines of grace in amazing profundity in my very own church that will be in hell. I will say again. I cannot know for certain who IS saved aside from myself. I can, and so can any believer, be pretty sure in a large % of cases who IS NOT based on some pretty simple biblical declarations. Open practicing homosexuals, Christ denying self proclaimed atheists and cultic disciples of Arius of Alexandria are presently lost or my bible has no purpose or meaning. How can I claim to love somebody who I am telling they are OK when God clearly states they aren’t?[/quote]

And you say I don’t understand sin?
Devil’s children? This implies that some people were begotten of the devil?, further that they had no choice and no free will, are you talking from birth, devil’s children?

What about closed or secret practicing homosexuals? I want the specific verse that says that all homosexuals are going to hell…Yes, it’s a sin, yes it is frowned upon, but hell? Can you say you’ve never done anything as bad or worse then a homosexual act? Like premarital sex? ← Rhetorical questions, I don’t want an answer. I am not a confessor and don’t want to be.
The only people specifically called out in the scriptures as potentially not seeing the Kingdom were the Pharisees which were practicing religious Jews.

If I were God, I’d be pretty offended at those who think they know my omniscient mind… Hell, I am offended that you think you know mine, even when I point out time and time again you don’t, that your not even close to understanding me.

384

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< So, you completely avoided the question. Is the man saved or is he not? He denounced the faith, said it was a fun 70 year emotional ride, but he was done, all a lie.[/quote]I did not avoid the question Chris. I would be surprised if a man who went to his grave calling the gospel a lie finds himself in glory. I am however loath to be quick on a guy who’s mere existence I am only aware of through a story from somebody on the internet. This would go for anybody. I do not make sport of judging someone’s salvation. If a situation presents itself where I am obliged to apply biblical principle I do. I do not prowl through my days seeking those who I may skewer with a lightning bolt.
[/quote]

You can shoot lightning bolts! Whoa!

385

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
(Please read this post as if spoken in an even friendly voice)

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Who did Christ die for, the righteous or for sinners? [/quote] All those sinners given Him by the father. There are none righteous, no not even one. How well I know. Nobody’s will is freer than God’s Pat. Every last person He chooses to leave in their sin is absolutely deserving of all of His wrath just as I am. It is only His wondrous eternal electing grace that differentiates the redeemed and the lost. If God saved those who freely chose Him as sinners, His heavenly praise would consist of a chorus of chirping crickets for all eternity (reverently spoken).

The reason you don’t see this my friend is because you don’t understand sin. Neither the scriptural declaration nor your own. Sin IS death. The dead do nothing until raised.

I am not yelling, and to the extent that I induced this vitriolic bitterness in you, which I fear may be more than I wish, I am truly sorry. I still have some growing up to do.
[/quote]

I’m not sure why you bother, if this is truly what you believe. According to you, there is no free will. The atonement of Christ is limited. God is a capricious creature who chooses to save some of His creation, while happily sending the rest of men to hell for eternal torment. What is the point in even creating these people, if they are going to suffer forever? Why not save them as well?

Who would worship such a being? I’m sorry, but this philosophy reeks of self-aggrandizement parading as humility. “I don’t deserve eternal happiness, but for some reason beyond my comprehension, God decided I was so special that He chose me over all the others who will suffer in hell forever.”

That is not Love, nor is it what Jesus taught.

I took the time to type Matthew 5:43-48 and would appreciate your response. Jesus said the Father causes the sun to rise on the evil and good, and sends rain to the righteous and the unrighteous. He commanded us to love all, rather than only loving the righteous. He defined perfection as universal love, and said we should be perfect as the Father is perfect.

386

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< And you say I don’t understand sin?
Devil’s children? This implies that some people were begotten of the devil?, >>>[/quote]1st John 3:10 ESV:

[quote]10-By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.[/quote]God says that there are children of the devil and they are evident. This whole book makes it clear that it those who are not born into Christ.

Paul in Ephesians 2 calls sinners “sons of disobedience” and “children of wrath” right along those lines. He at Romans 5:10 calls unbelievers the “enemies of God”. I claim only to know what He reveals Pat. I have no time now. I will try to get to some more of these questions later

387

So by your own admission, you were once a child of the devil. You were a son of disobedience, a child of wrath, and an enemy of God.

And you still would be, except for some mysterious reason God thought you were special and decided to save you, through no free repentance or submission of your will to His.

388

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
(Please read this post as if spoken in an even friendly voice)

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< Who did Christ die for, the righteous or for sinners? [/quote] All those sinners given Him by the father. There are none righteous, no not even one. How well I know. Nobody’s will is freer than God’s Pat. Every last person He chooses to leave in their sin is absolutely deserving of all of His wrath just as I am. It is only His wondrous eternal electing grace that differentiates the redeemed and the lost. If God saved those who freely chose Him as sinners, His heavenly praise would consist of a chorus of chirping crickets for all eternity (reverently spoken).

The reason you don’t see this my friend is because you don’t understand sin. Neither the scriptural declaration nor your own. Sin IS death. The dead do nothing until raised.

I am not yelling, and to the extent that I induced this vitriolic bitterness in you, which I fear may be more than I wish, I am truly sorry. I still have some growing up to do.
[/quote]

I’m not sure why you bother, if this is truly what you believe. According to you, there is no free will. The atonement of Christ is limited. God is a capricious creature who chooses to save some of His creation, while happily sending the rest of men to hell for eternal torment. What is the point in even creating these people, if they are going to suffer forever? Why not save them as well?

Who would worship such a being? I’m sorry, but this philosophy reeks of self-aggrandizement parading as humility. “I don’t deserve eternal happiness, but for some reason beyond my comprehension, God decided I was so special that He chose me over all the others who will suffer in hell forever.”

That is not Love, nor is it what Jesus taught.

I took the time to type Matthew 5:43-48 and would appreciate your response. Jesus said the Father causes the sun to rise on the evil and good, and sends rain to the righteous and the unrighteous. He commanded us to love all, rather than only loving the righteous. He defined perfection as universal love, and said we should be perfect as the Father is perfect.
[/quote]

Damn, did I say you have talent? Your assessment is spot on…

Your assessment is correct, if God is selective and does not love all of man, then his love is conditional, segregating, and just flat mean. I for one, would not worship such a person.
Even in the OT God was selective for the people out of which he was to come, but he gives no indication of eternal damnation for all others. Hell, even God says that he made Pharaoh indignant, so is Pharaoh to blame for his hardened heart if it were God’s doing?

389

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
<<< And you say I don’t understand sin?
Devil’s children? This implies that some people were begotten of the devil?, >>>[/quote]1st John 3:10 ESV:

[quote]10-By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.[/quote]God says that there are children of the devil and they are evident. This whole book makes it clear that it those who are not born into Christ.

Paul in Ephesians 2 calls sinners “sons of disobedience” and “children of wrath” right along those lines. He at Romans 5:10 calls unbelievers the “enemies of God”. I claim only to know what He reveals Pat. I have no time now. I will try to get to some more of these questions later
[/quote]

So are you saying that some people are literally born of the devil and literally born of God? Because by this literal definition, we are all children of the devil because we sin, unless of course you are without sin in which makes you a child of God.

There is always danger in extrapolating versus out of context for in many cases it means something different in context.

Bible quotes should always mean the same in and out of the context they were written, lest you give birth to heresy and false beliefs. Quoting out of context is how you get kooks and cults, because you can make an out of context quote sound like anything.

John was talking about works here interestingly enough. You have to act right before God and man and you have to love your neighbor as God loves you.
Hate and sin are born of the devil. To say God hates, in a literal sense hates people is to say that God himself is under the influence of the devil. Interesting take.

390

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Tirib,
I am curious… Do you consider yourself a 5 point calvinist (as in TULIP)? If not which parts don’t you like?[/quote] Yes,
Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited (I prefer particular) atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance (I prefer preservation) of the saints

I absolutely own all 5 points (not articulated that way by Calvin himself) as most exalted and glorious truths regarding the salvation of the Lord Jesus. No, it is not possible to have that enormous debate here. I see them simply staring at me everywhere in scripture. The God I worship cannot fail. If even one soul He earnestly purposes to finally save winds up in hell then he is the most pitiful of failures.
[/quote]
I didn’t want to “have that enormous debate here”. I was merely curious. [/quote]Well fair enough. It’s just that what usually follows is something like “WHAT!!! what kinda nutjob doesn’t believe Jesus died to pay for everybody’s sins?”. This kind. The kind who believes that if He’d done that then they’d all be infallibly saved. Then would come a human analogy by them about how some interaction between men is supposed to prove what God almighty must be like (creating God in their own image). And off we go. I’m not telling you to shut up and I am most assuredly not afraid to defend my beliefs, but mind bendingly profound doctrine that reaches into the divine mind beyond where we can even reliably go does not lend itself well to forum debates.

Don’t be afraid to ask me questions though if you want to. I don’t mean it like that as it wouldn’t be very Christian to refuse to address somebody’s honest curiosity.
[/quote]
Thank you for your candor. I don’t think you are a nut job and actually I admire a lot of what John Calvin did and was trying to do (as well as some of the other reformers) as there were some serious abuses occuring in the times leading up to the protestant reformation. I am certainly not a calvinist though, but I understand the allure. The Catholic Church does not have a set in stone teaching about predestination, and in fact there are two that are consider as possibilities: Augustinianism and Thomism. What in fact is rejected is that anyone is not given the grace to repent (ie everyone has the opportunity to be saved if they would turn to God, but not all do). There is the opening that God acts irresistilby on some to draw them too him, but not that any are totally forsaken without them denying God. Thomas Aquinas formulates this as there being two kinds of grace: one that enables you to choose God or not and another that works in and through you for your salvation when you do choose God. The point is that God would like all mankind to choose Him, but love is not love if it is not a choice. I have personally gone round and round about this particular facet of Christianity and truly don’t know exactly how the process works and I oscillate between Augustine’s view and that of Aquinas, but ultimately what matters is that God acts on us first without which we would be lost (I think you would at least agree with me on that last part).

391

“Love is not love if it is not a choice.”

Well said. I agree 100%. God is our Father, not our Puppetmaster.

392

[quote]forlife wrote:
So by your own admission, you were once a child of the devil. You were a son of disobedience, a child of wrath, and an enemy of God. [/quote]Admit? I own that without question. The guy who led me to the Lord 26 years ago told me that first thing. That’s just the gospel. It is that very realization that Paul cites as making the incredible grace of my loving Savior so amazing.

[quote]forlife wrote:
And you still would be, except for some mysterious reason God thought you were special and decided to save you, through no free repentance or submission of your will to His.[/quote]I still would be had he not raised me from death to life by His free sovereign electing grace for any other conceivable reason than my being special. I am not told why.

He subdued my stubborn stiff necked rebellious will, gave me the gift of faith through which I believed His gospel, counted His blood as propitiation for my unpayable debt, gave me His very resurrection life and set me on a lifelong journey of discovery and sanctification. My friend, I was going to the same hell you are and had He left me to my own will and desires I would have justly perished in my sin.

If you read any self righteous “GOD HATES FAGS” attitude in that then I am out of ways to express my faith.

393

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< but ultimately what matters is that God acts on us first without which we would be lost (I think you would at least agree with me on that last part).[/quote]I agree with Augustine as did Calvin, by name. ALL human beings are conceived and born already dead and damned by nature as Paul says in Ephesians 2. Their eternal sentence is entirely deserved, myself included. The ones He has chosen in Christ from eternity are born again into the resurrected life of the risen savior. All are dead, dead, DEAD in trespasses and sins. ALL would stay that way if left to themselves. The gospel is the life giving antidote to death offered to every last person in the graveyard and it would have the power to raise them all. However, until He digs somebody up and administers that antidote ain’t nobody goin nowhere friend. THAT IS THE REALITY OF SIN that is missed even by most today I would consider true brethren.

It is human nature to fancy ourselves “not THAT bad, sheesh”. Ohhhhh yes we are. I was a deadman and though miserable would have gladly remained dead if not for my precious Lord’s unimaginable mercy in not only forgiving my debt, but making me family. The very thought makes me shout HALLELUJAH!!! Ya’ll can make fun of that all you want. I’ll continue to pray.

394

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
So by your own admission, you were once a child of the devil. You were a son of disobedience, a child of wrath, and an enemy of God. [/quote]Admit? I own that without question. The guy who led me to the Lord 26 years ago told me that first thing. That’s just the gospel. It is that very realization that Paul cites as making the incredible grace of my loving Savior so amazing.

[quote]forlife wrote:
And you still would be, except for some mysterious reason God thought you were special and decided to save you, through no free repentance or submission of your will to His.[/quote]I still would be had he not raised me from death to life by His free sovereign electing grace for any other conceivable reason than my being special. I am not told why.

He subdued my stubborn stiff necked rebellious will, gave me the gift of faith through which I believed His gospel, counted His blood as propitiation for my unpayable debt, gave me His very resurrection life and set me on a lifelong journey of discovery and sanctification. My friend, I was going to the same hell you are and had He left me to my own will and desires I would have justly perished in my sin.

If you read any self righteous “GOD HATES FAGS” attitude in that then I am out of ways to express my faith.
[/quote]

The self-righteousness is the conviction that God would choose YOU for eternal joy and condemn OTHERS to eternal suffering, for His own mysterious purposes and for no fault of their own. It doesn’t matter that you consider yourself unworthy of God’s grace. Believing that God gave you that grace and made you elect over others is cloyingly smug, despite the protestations of unworthiness.

I honestly think the most damning doctrine one could adopt is the belief that men have no free will. It removes responsibility for our actions, and makes us nothing more than puppets. I think Christ would condemn such a heresy in the harshest terms. It is contrary to everything that he taught.

Again, I welcome your comments on Matthew 5:43-48. They directly contradict everything you’ve said.

395

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Hate and sin are born of the devil. To say God hates, in a literal sense hates people is to say that God himself is under the influence of the devil. Interesting take.[/quote]I know exactly what the context was Pat. God hates people. Face it. Chris’s friar does and rightly so. This is what I mean by creating God in one’s own image. He describes Himself and people just refuse to believe what He says.

Sinners are children of the devil in a spiritual sense. Of course He’s not saying they are substantively begotten of Satan (although there are some who say this, I do not) Satan is called the prince of the power of the air and the “whole world” is reported to lie in His power. They who are of the world are in his family. That’s why we are everywhere commanded to “be not conformed to the world”. To “be not of the world” and that “friendship with the world is enmity with God”.

John also says that those who are born of God have His seed abiding in them which accounts for their not being able to continue a life of practicing sin. Take that how you want. I know what it means.

396

“However, until He digs somebody up and administers that antidote ain’t nobody goin nowhere friend.” I wasn’t disagreeing with you on that at all merely saying that where you and I differ on this is a question of process, or rather how God does the saving, I do not question that God does the saving to do so would be heresy. The difference in our views is that I believe the free gift of God’s saving grace is offered to all people and some reject it and thus do not receive his saving grace (this does not mean His grace is ineffective, but rather that it was not received) and are thus damned by their choice (I will add the caveat as I did above that no one can choose God without God first acting on them, so yes we are born dead in our sin, not neutral, DEAD [I can use caps too!]).

“The very thought makes me shout HALLELUJAH!!! Ya’ll can make fun of that all you want.” I don’t nor would I ever make fun of someone rejoicing in the mercy of God.

I am enjoying this conversation.

397

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
So by your own admission, you were once a child of the devil. You were a son of disobedience, a child of wrath, and an enemy of God. [/quote]Admit? I own that without question. The guy who led me to the Lord 26 years ago told me that first thing. That’s just the gospel. It is that very realization that Paul cites as making the incredible grace of my loving Savior so amazing.

[quote]forlife wrote:
And you still would be, except for some mysterious reason God thought you were special and decided to save you, through no free repentance or submission of your will to His.[/quote]I still would be had he not raised me from death to life by His free sovereign electing grace for any other conceivable reason than my being special. I am not told why.

He subdued my stubborn stiff necked rebellious will, gave me the gift of faith through which I believed His gospel, counted His blood as propitiation for my unpayable debt, gave me His very resurrection life and set me on a lifelong journey of discovery and sanctification. My friend, I was going to the same hell you are and had He left me to my own will and desires I would have justly perished in my sin.

If you read any self righteous “GOD HATES FAGS” attitude in that then I am out of ways to express my faith.
[/quote]

The self-righteousness is the conviction that God would choose YOU for eternal joy and condemn OTHERS to eternal suffering, for His own mysterious purposes and for no fault of their own. It doesn’t matter that you consider yourself unworthy of God’s grace. Believing that God gave you that grace and made you elect over others is cloyingly smug, despite the protestations of unworthiness.

I honestly think the most damning doctrine one could adopt is the belief that men have no free will. It removes responsibility for our actions, and makes us nothing more than puppets. I think Christ would condemn such a heresy in the harshest terms. It is contrary to everything that he taught.

Again, I welcome your comments on Matthew 5:43-48. They directly contradict everything you’ve said. [/quote]

All these threads are running together for me. I wrote the below in “Defining a True Christian” and think it is pertinent in this conversation as well.

“I was thinking about this last night and came to the conclusion that the greatest lie the devil told was that our actions don’t have consequences. This is the lie he told Eve ‘you will not surely die’. This is also the lie of sola fide ‘what you do doesn’t matter as long as you have faith’.”

398

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< I believe the free gift of God’s saving grace is offered to all people and some reject it and thus do not receive his saving grace >>>[/quote]I only have a minute. I believe the free gift of God’s grace is offered to all people who without exception freely reject it save for those the Father has eternally foreordained will freely accept it. I have no idea how that precisely works or who they are or how many and will never know in this life. I only know that He says.[quote]jakerz96 wrote:<<< (this does not mean His grace is ineffective, but rather that it was not received) and are thus damned by their choice >>>[/quote]I agree. One drop of Jesus’s glorious blood could save one trillion Earths covered with people. It is however only efficacious for those the Father has chosen.

399

Stated,

"…There is always danger in extrapolating versus out of context for in many cases it means something different in context.

Bible quotes should always mean the same in and out of the context they were written, lest you give birth to heresy and false beliefs. Quoting out of context is how you get kooks and cults, because you can make an out of context quote sound like anything.

John was talking about works here interestingly enough…"

Context has to do with preceding and succeeding sentences. You have only used the succeeding ones (I Jn. 3:11-24), which has to do with salvation and the test of love. I John 3:10 is the heart of John’s teaching which begins at I John 2:28 and has to do with those who obeyed, were the children of God and those that disobeyed, were the children of Satan.

John warns the reader not to be deceived about the nature of salvation (I Jn. 3:7). Consequently, the believer must reject any theology or teaching which alleges that one can be out of fellowship with God (I Jn. 1:3), continue to sin, do the works of the devil (I Jn. 3:8), love the world (I Jn. 2:15), do harm to others (I Jn. 3:14-18), and yet be a child of God who is saved and destined for heaven.

Contrary to this false teaching, John clearly believed that anyone who continues in sin “is of the devil” (I Jn. 3:8) and “is not of God” (I Jn. 3:10). If the one who habitually practices sin claims to possess eternal life and be God’s child, he is deceived and “is a liar” (I Jn. 2:4). Futhermore, what characterizes a true child of God is a love for God manifested in keeping His commandments (I Jn. 5:2) and showing genuine concern for the spiritual and physical needs of other believers (I Jn. 3:16-17).

400

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
<<< This is also the lie of sola fide ‘what you do doesn’t matter as long as you have faith’."
[/quote]And that is a lie ABOUT sola fide. Calvin himself said in his commentary on Romans that to believe that grace and it’s assurance of reconciliation with God can be had while sin abounds is to make the medicine the fomenter of the very sickness it alleges to cure. No reliable proponent biblical Christianity holds that salvation by grace through faith alone is ever taking place where flagrant sin or fatally heretical doctrine persists. Blacksheep has given a solid and concise exposition from the 1st epistle of John that I have been citing which quite soundly shows us why.

That is a falsehood sir. You seem a decent fella. I would not like to think you did it intentionally.