[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Well said, Pat.[/quote]
There you go - If this guy agrees with you, well you know your theology just can’t be right.[/quote]
Or it might be that forlife doesn’t know what he’s talking about and thinks he agrees. I’m really sure FL doesn’t agree with the truths of the Catholic Church.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I wouldn’t say I know all my theology, I’m continuously in correction of my knowledge of theology, doctrine, and dogma. Not that I do not learn correctly, but my conclusions are in correct. >>>[/quote]I don’t know what you mean about incorrect conclusions, but you know more RCC theology that 99% of the laity in this country especially.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
To your questions:
Because, that is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. <<<>>>
As well, Our Father wouldn’t allow it, those that are unclean/corrupted are not allowed in the presence of the Father, >>>[/quote]Well this would certainly include me apart from the perfect purity of the only begotten Son of God who loved me and though He knew no sin was made sin for me. I did read the rest and there was a real mixture in there. Also, I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but RCC clergy, especially in the west, care less and less what the church actually teaches all the time.
I’m downloading your Mary video now. I told you I’d watch it and I will. I’ve been super busy.
[/quote]
Yes, some folks in the Latin Rite have become, uh…liberal about certain things, that is why I love having Bishop Olmsted as my Bishop.
That’s also why when I am home I go to a to one of the Byzantine Divine Liturgies or a Tridentine Mass. Yes, I either drive 30-40 minutes or I drive for an hour to go to Mass (Divine Liturgy) on Sundays.
However, the younger clergy are turning that around, thankfully. More and more younger clergy are traditionalist, following the teachings of the Catholic Church by the letter of the law, not this “spirit of VII” stuff.[/quote]
There is always a wrestling between the ‘letter of the law’ vs. ‘spirit of the law’ since the beginning of the church. Both are needed and it is certainly a fine line. But to go to far in one direction for the sake of the other direction is an error, as there must be balance there. What is not needed is the in fighting that this can sometimes cause because it takes to focus off of Christ and put’s it on the ego’s of those involved in the fight. It validates the 1rst commandment.
It breaks down basically like this, if you want rules and regulations, you got them in spades. If you feel that is the best way to Christ it is what you should do. But if you put to much emphasis on the ‘rules’ you take the focus off of God. That’s a dangerous proposition because Christ himself rallied vehemently against the Pharisees for such behaviour.
Likewise, abandoning the rules and just jumping up and down about how much you love Christ, but you do what you want with no regard for His commands is a no-go as well. Again the focus is off of Christ and on yourself in this case as well.
Bottom line balance is needed. Usually, if you follow, I mean actually, really, follow the big 2 (love of God and love of neighbor) you will end up living in the light of Christ in faith and action. Of course, perfecting the big 2 is an on going struggle until death, you never do it good enough.[/quote]
Yes, and what I like to point out to others that there is ten commandments which fall under these two commandments, there are also other commandments which also fall under these two besides just the ten.[/quote]
If you do the two, you’ll do the ten, Jesus said so…Mt 22:34-40[/quote]
Sola Scriptura!!! Wait…the Bible also says listen to the tradition the Apostles taught…my non-circular, circular reasoning fails again.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Yeah, you should do what you feel is best to know the most high God and His Christ. It’s all over the bible from Genesis to Revelation. I don’t know how I could’ve missed it.[/quote]
Who said anything about ‘do what you feel is best’?
I didn’t write the 10 commandments or the Lord’s Prayer or define God/Christ as Love.
Besides, everyone has their own perception or focus on the Bible anyway.
That’s OK. Who ever said we all have to see it the exact same way?
How boring that would be! The Stepford Religion!
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Yeah, you should do what you feel is best to know the most high God and His Christ. It’s all over the bible from Genesis to Revelation. I don’t know how I could’ve missed it.[/quote]
Who said anything about ‘do what you feel is best’?
I didn’t write the 10 commandments or the Lord’s Prayer or define God/Christ as Love.
Besides, everyone has their own perception or focus on the Bible anyway.
That’s OK. Who ever said we all have to see it the exact same way?
How boring that would be! The Stepford Religion! [/quote]
See, Tirib, why I have a trouble with Protestantism…at least with Catholicism, you have one truth, it never changes, but you have many cultures to which to acknowledge those truths.
You just can’t bear the idea of One Truth through all religions can you?
Do you think God ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RC machine?
I really respect the Catholics here on this board and do not want any gripe with them, but I do strongly believe that sola scriptura (though not mentioned in that phrase) is what God intended, and that we should not exceed it.
1Cor 4:6
I have applied these things to myself and Apollos because of you, brothers and sisters, so that through us you may learn â??not to go beyond what is written,â?? so that none of you will be puffed up in favor of the one against the other.
Luke 1:1-4
Now many have undertaken to compile an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, like the accounts passed on to us by those who were eyewitnesses and servants of the word from the beginning. So it seemed good to me as well, because I have followed all things carefully from the beginning, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know for certain the things you were taught.
Matt 4:1-11
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After he fasted forty days and forty nights he was famished. 3 The tempter came and said to him, â??If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become bread.â?? 4 But he answered, â??It is written, â??Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.â??â?? 5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, had him stand on the highest point of the temple, 6 and said to him, â??If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written, â??He will command his angels concerning youâ?? and â??with their hands they will lift you up, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.â??â?? 7 Jesus said to him, â??Once again it is written: â??You are not to put the Lord your God to the test.â??â?? 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their grandeur. 9 And he said to him, â??I will give you all these things if you throw yourself to the ground and worship me.â?? 10 Then Jesus said to him, â??Go away, Satan! For it is written: â??You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him.â??â?? 11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and began ministering to his needs (In this scripture, Jesus quotes old testament scripture, he does not use tradition).
2Tim 3:16
Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work. (this one stands out to me the most)
Luke 10:26 He said to him, â??What is written in the law? How do you understand it?â?? (not tradition, but what is written).
Acts 17:11
These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
You just can’t bear the idea of One Truth through all religions can you?
Do you think God ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RC machine?[/quote]
You just can’t bear the idea of the Catholic Church being the one Church of Christ?
Why do you call it the RC machine? Are you bigoted towards the Catholic Church?
I believe in absolute truth, and either we have indifferentialism…or, we have absolute truth.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
You just can’t bear the idea of One Truth through all religions can you?
Do you think God ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RC machine?[/quote]
You just can’t bear the idea of the Catholic Church being the one Church of Christ?
Why do you call it the RC machine? Are you bigoted towards the Catholic Church?
I believe in absolute truth, and either we have indifferentialism…or, we have absolute truth.
[/quote]
You’re dodging. Do you think God/Christ ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RCC?
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
You just can’t bear the idea of One Truth through all religions can you?
Do you think God ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RC machine?[/quote]
You just can’t bear the idea of the Catholic Church being the one Church of Christ?
Why do you call it the RC machine? Are you bigoted towards the Catholic Church?
I believe in absolute truth, and either we have indifferentialism…or, we have absolute truth.
[/quote]
You’re dodging. Do you think God/Christ ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RCC?
[/quote]
You’re dodging. You keep giving False Dichotomies. And, your question is strange, God exists outside of the Catholic faith, and what do you think I’m going to say about His will? Tirib has constantly berated me because I don’t hold what he holds the Catholic Church to teach.
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
You just can’t bear the idea of One Truth through all religions can you?
Do you think God ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RC machine?[/quote]
There is SOME truth to all religions, like for example:
Islam: Monotheistic faith
Buddhism: Be kind and gentle
Native american: respect nature
So on and so forth.
But NO ONE can save you except the Son of the living God, and that is Jesus Christ. If you are a Christian, you must believe this, otherwise you’re not Christian. If I was Muslim and said Muhammad wasn’t the last profit of God, can I be a Muslim, if I deny such a concrete teaching from the Qu’ran?
That is why Oprah is not Christian though she claims to be. She says there are many ways to God. No there isn’t. Just one. Jesus Christ.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Well said, Pat.[/quote]
There you go - If this guy agrees with you, well you know your theology just can’t be right.[/quote]
Or it might be that forlife doesn’t know what he’s talking about and thinks he agrees. I’m really sure FL doesn’t agree with the truths of the Catholic Church.[/quote]Pat doesn’t even agree with the RCC and you know it. I know you know it, but your discipline and loyalty to Pat on one hand and your unwillingness to publicly display controversy with fellow Catholics for the sake of the image of the church on the other are something to behold. Actually those are 2 sides of the same hand. I am forced to a sort of begrudging respect (maybe) Chris. You did not take my bait on the previous page. It’s funny how people are always “clarifying” what he means, even forlife now, and I’ve never seen him confirm a single clarification.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Well said, Pat.[/quote]
There you go - If this guy agrees with you, well you know your theology just can’t be right.[/quote]
Or it might be that forlife doesn’t know what he’s talking about and thinks he agrees. I’m really sure FL doesn’t agree with the truths of the Catholic Church.[/quote]Pat doesn’t even agree with the RCC and you know it. I know you know it, but your discipline and loyalty to Pat on one hand and your unwillingness to publicly display controversy with fellow Catholics for the sake of the image of the church on the other are something to behold. Actually those are 2 sides of the same hand. I am forced to a sort of begrudging respect (maybe) Chris. You did not take my bait on the previous page. It’s funny how people are always “clarifying” what he means, even forlife now, and I’ve never seen him confirm a single clarification.
[/quote]
I don’t confront pat in public because I do that stuff in private and I don’t follow pat around and read everything he says on the forums, I just don’t have that time. I am too absent minded really, and half the time when I read pat’s comments I am not sure what he’s saying.
[quote]apbt55 wrote: <<< God hates the sin not the person.
Like your own child, you may hate what they do, but will always love them. (we are human so this is not the case for all)
But you also want them to see what they are doing is wrong, ask for forgiveness and seriously attempt to change what it is they may be doing.
[/quote]Here watch this Chris. I disagree with apbt55 here entirely and have already extensively cited scripture demonstrating Why. Even your (Brother Chris’s) friar from our lady of Guadalupe got this. In that homily linked by you a good while back he specifically addressed this very, quite modern concept of God “hating the sin and loving the sinner” doing an able job of refuting it.
No offense to apbt55, seriously. I don’t really know you and intend nothing further by this post than to say you are just wrong on this point. This is what happens when we allow what we would do dictate what God would do rather than simply letting Him speak. The whole of the RCC is the result of this very error.
Yeah, I’m not sure what bait you’re talking about. If you’re talking about the “do whatever you want comment,” that wasn’t a good bait. I figured that was a joke, but if you want a good bait I would suggest next time going at it from a Sola Scriptura/Holy Script+Tradition+Magisterium angle.
I make the comment “I do what I want” all the time. That is because what I want to do is the will of God. I don’t necessarily do it all the time, I am not perfect, but I have faith and I do my penance. Obviously we all know you can’t do whatever you want (that is contradictory actually), you have to do the Father’s will and fear the Lord in order to be saved.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Yeah, I’m not sure what bait you’re talking about. If you’re talking about the “do whatever you want comment,” that wasn’t a good bait. I figured that was a joke, but if you want a good bait I would suggest next time going at it from a Sola Scriptura/Holy Script+Tradition+Magisterium angle.
I make the comment “I do what I want” all the time. That is because what I want to do is the will of God. I don’t necessarily do it all the time, I am not perfect, but I have faith and I do my penance. Obviously we all know you can’t do whatever you want (that is contradictory actually), you have to do the Father’s will and fear the Lord in order to be saved.[/quote]You knew exactly what I was doin LOL!!! And I knew you would know. Absent minded my eye LOL!!! Who are you tryin to con? You are a walking library of Roman Catholic knowledge who knows right where to dig up an answer to everything. Your memory and attention to detail are superb.
One other thing. Do not ever think I am anxious to see Pat be wrong. I would cut my own hand off before typing anything designed to simply put anyone down. That’s not he point at all though I very much doubt anything I say for now will disabuse him of this completely erroneous notion.
Lol @ absent minded my eye. Trust me, my kin has to ask me a couple dozen times a day if I’m listening.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
You just can’t bear the idea of One Truth through all religions can you?
Do you think God ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RC machine?[/quote]
There is SOME truth to all religions, like for example:
Islam: Monotheistic faith
Buddhism: Be kind and gentle
Native american: respect nature
So on and so forth.
But NO ONE can save you except the Son of the living God, and that is Jesus Christ. If you are a Christian, you must believe this, otherwise you’re not Christian. If I was Muslim and said Muhammad wasn’t the last profit of God, can I be a Muslim, if I deny such a concrete teaching from the Qu’ran?
That is why Oprah is not Christian though she claims to be. She says there are many ways to God. No there isn’t. Just one. Jesus Christ.[/quote]
What if Jesus Christ existed everywhere, all the time, just like God? (I am with you always).
What if other people know the same State of Beingness as another name? Using a different vernacular, just like people of the world use different languages? What if Christ is Krishna is Nature/Life Force is Buddha is God and so on. What if everyone has been talking about and worshiping the same Being (or aspect thereof) for millennia, but have developed their own stories using their own language from their own culture? Wouldn’t that be a grand cosmic joke! The Truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
Some groups pigeon-hole themselves into one particular way and that’s fine. But when they say its the only VALID way, and everyone else is WRONG, then we are entering the intolerant extremist category… the Taliban comes to mind…
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
You just can’t bear the idea of One Truth through all religions can you?
Do you think God ceases to exist and work His will outside of the RC machine?[/quote]
There is SOME truth to all religions, like for example:
Islam: Monotheistic faith
Buddhism: Be kind and gentle
Native american: respect nature
So on and so forth.
But NO ONE can save you except the Son of the living God, and that is Jesus Christ. If you are a Christian, you must believe this, otherwise you’re not Christian. If I was Muslim and said Muhammad wasn’t the last profit of God, can I be a Muslim, if I deny such a concrete teaching from the Qu’ran?
That is why Oprah is not Christian though she claims to be. She says there are many ways to God. No there isn’t. Just one. Jesus Christ.[/quote]
What if Jesus Christ existed everywhere, all the time, just like God? (I am with you always).
What if other people know the same State of Beingness as another name? Using a different vernacular, just like people of the world use different languages? What if Christ is Krishna is Nature/Life Force is Buddha is God and so on. What if everyone has been talking about and worshiping the same Being (or aspect thereof) for millennia, but have developed their own stories using their own language from their own culture? Wouldn’t that be a grand cosmic joke! The Truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
Some groups pigeon-hole themselves into one particular way and that’s fine. But when they say its the only VALID way, and everyone else is WRONG, then we are entering the intolerant extremist category… the Taliban comes to mind…[/quote]
This is indifferentialism…and a heresy. I am sorry, but I can not agree with you.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Well said, Pat.[/quote]
There you go - If this guy agrees with you, well you know your theology just can’t be right.[/quote]
Or it might be that forlife doesn’t know what he’s talking about and thinks he agrees. I’m really sure FL doesn’t agree with the truths of the Catholic Church.[/quote]
As I said earlier, I’m speaking from the perspective of my former Christian self. I think everyone here knows by now that I am an agnostic.
That said, I do respect the Catholic commitment to practicing what they preach. I think it’s lame to claim that confessing the name of Jesus is going to save you, when you don’t earnestly try to follow Christ’s example for the rest of your life.
Tiribulus, I actually didn’t realize you believed this so let me confirm. Are you saying that God hates both the sinner and the sin?
If so, that is pretty harsh. It’s more consistent with the old testament view of God as a savage, vindictive, jealous, egocentric being of enormous power but lacking in mercy, compassion, and love.
I always believed God was the very definition of Love. That doesn’t mean He can overthrow the eternal laws of mercy and justice, which will result in the damnation of those who reject Him. But His compassion and love are infinite, and He wants all to come unto Him and be saved.