Because they freely choose that instead of God. Well, being in Heaven while others are in Hell is a very difficult concept. Basically what I can say about that is that we’ll know that our loved one’s choose not to love God. It is a difficult idea, and I haven’t really given it much thought beyond I need to help those that I am supposed to help.
Lol, those children and their parents were bad people. They were constant enemies of the Jewish people. I don’t know the exegesis of the entire Bible, and I don’t have the time or the patience to do an entire exegesis of the Bible. Some people spend their entire doctorate doing an exegsis on two verses. So, I’ll just do a short one. The story at hand shows what happens to those that go against God’s chosen people. The author of that story was allowed to imput his prejudice and assumptions into the Bible. But, again I can’t say much about that story of Elijah as I have not studied it.
Yes…hmm…interesting. I hope brownies are okay.
That would suck royally, I’m not debating that. For your sake, let’s change the senario and just say she is in Hell.
Heaven would be heaven, even though she is not there. The point of Heaven is to be with the creator, and even though we are there with other of God’s creatures, the focus is still between the creator and the created specifically humans.
You know there is nothing new under the sun, abortion is just the modern way of passing their children through the fire.[/quote]
I’m curious, do you think babies go to hell? Or do you think they get an automatic pass to heaven?[/quote]
Well, I believe they go to Heaven, others thought they went to Limbo. However, there is an argument that those not given the chance to be baptized, but otherwise would have been or wanted to (Baptism by desire), would go to Heaven. But it is a theological hypothesis right now.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Without question abortion is the single worst abomination that exists. There is no crime worse than that which is perpetrated on the weakest and most defensless. And there is also no question that Christians through out the world (especially the Catholic church) have held the line on the crime of abortion.[/quote]
Actually I would think that Christians would be heavily in favor of abortion.
Seems only logical, but you’d have to believe that babies go to heaven. If you didn’t believe that, then I’d have to wonder if you condemn God for allowing them to go to hell.
[/quote]
On the idea of God changing His mind, he doesn’t change his mind. And, no it is not logical for Christians to be in favor of abortion. At least as a Catholic I respect human dignity, immensely. That is why I have such care for the poor, hungry, homeless, and those less fortunate. Killing a baby disrespects the human dignity of that baby. And, even though babies might go to Heaven, that isn’t a certainty. As well, Children are looked as gifts from God, and gifts from God are not to be denied. So, logically abortion is a no-no.
[quote]
Now, if you do believe they are in heaven, then how could you be in favor of criminalizing abortion?
It seems like the only way to guarantee your child goes to heaven. After all, they could grow up to be atheists, damning themselves to hell. With abortion, they get an automatic pass to heaven.[/quote]
Doesn’t honor human dignity, and denies such an awesome gift from God. Doesn’t matter, atheists still have human dignity (God loves them) and they are gift from God.
I’m still not getting why Christians who believe the babies go to Heaven are against abortion. Certainly the Christians shouldn’t be the DRs doing the abortion, but it seems to me to be the ultimate gift of love - you ensure your child a spot in heaven.
Now, if you believe the kid goes to hell, that’s one thing.
As to human dignity, I’m not seeing the connection. Seems to me the lesser of two evils to let human dignity take a hit - at least if you honestly value the child.
[quote]Pangloss wrote:
I’m still not getting why Christians who believe the babies go to Heaven are against abortion. Certainly the Christians shouldn’t be the DRs doing the abortion, but it seems to me to be the ultimate gift of love - you ensure your child a spot in heaven.
Now, if you believe the kid goes to hell, that’s one thing.
As to human dignity, I’m not seeing the connection. Seems to me the lesser of two evils to let human dignity take a hit - at least if you honestly value the child.[/quote]
We’re not really talking about a moral or theological issue here… this is the problem.
I find it exceedingly rare to find someone who can discuss the issue of abortion without being trapped in the polarized rhetoric that has dominated public debate on it for the past 25 years.
I usually find Catholics to be more level-headed about it than most. I think this has to do with their typically liberal leanings when it comes to social policy.
Here’s where I stand (as a response to the completely tasteless and ignorant posts made on the previous page):
Abortion is not a good thing.
Sometimes it is necessary. My wife had to have our first DNC’d at about 6 weeks. It was not viable, and she was hemorrhaging to death.
Having an ineffective safety net and education for single mothers, abortions of convenience WILL occur whether they are legal or not… so the best policy is to maintain their legality at some level and keep them safe.
[quote]Pangloss wrote:
I’m still not getting why Christians who believe the babies go to Heaven are against abortion. Certainly the Christians shouldn’t be the DRs doing the abortion, but it seems to me to be the ultimate gift of love - you ensure your child a spot in heaven.
Now, if you believe the kid goes to hell, that’s one thing.
As to human dignity, I’m not seeing the connection. Seems to me the lesser of two evils to let human dignity take a hit - at least if you honestly value the child.[/quote]
No, you also forget free will. I know Tirib doesn’t believe in freewill, but part of human dignity is free will.
[quote]Pangloss wrote:
I’m still not getting why Christians who believe the babies go to Heaven are against abortion. Certainly the Christians shouldn’t be the DRs doing the abortion, but it seems to me to be the ultimate gift of love - you ensure your child a spot in heaven.
Now, if you believe the kid goes to hell, that’s one thing.
As to human dignity, I’m not seeing the connection. Seems to me the lesser of two evils to let human dignity take a hit - at least if you honestly value the child.[/quote]
We’re not really talking about a moral or theological issue here… this is the problem.
I find it exceedingly rare to find someone who can discuss the issue of abortion without being trapped in the polarized rhetoric that has dominated public debate on it for the past 25 years.
I usually find Catholics to be more level-headed about it than most. I think this has to do with their typically liberal leanings when it comes to social policy.
Here’s where I stand (as a response to the completely tasteless and ignorant posts made on the previous page):
Abortion is not a good thing.
Sometimes it is necessary. My wife had to have our first DNC’d at about 6 weeks. It was not viable, and she was hemorrhaging to death.
Having an ineffective safety net and education for single mothers, abortions of convenience WILL occur whether they are legal or not… so the best policy is to maintain their legality at some level and keep them safe. [/quote]
I’m sorry about you and your wife’s loss.
However, I disagree with you that maintaining abortion’s legality at any level is the best policy. There are alternative operations, as well, if any Catholic says that abortion may be allowable, you can tell them with full assurance that they are not in concordance with Catholic teaching.
Abortion is a non-negotiable, as I like to call it.
Don’t worry Trib, mak is just a lil’ ole boy from that tiny island down under and he is trying to pick a fight with real men who actually know what they are talking about. Simply as mak which country has made abortion illegal and has failed after even a decade?? Huh, is that supposed to be different than universal health care?? And so a little tiny man who has no idea on how the world works, is supposed to know everything because he sat in a lecture at a school of said little country?? The boy needs to grow up and stop letting mom beat him off his little member while she whispers in his ear about how smart mak is. I started ignoring him long ago but his rants never change so I had to chime in!!
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< You have no idea what my views on abortion are, >>>[/quote]Go ahead n tell us. Or shaddup. You tell me that you are unequivocally opposed to the murderous practice of abortion and I will without hesitation recant my statement as applying to you and apologize for assuming I figured your position correctly. I have no problem doing that and maybe I should have even found out before that post. Go ahead. Make me look like a fool.[/quote]Guess he decided to shaddup.
[/quote]
Go back through my posts and actually read instead of assuming or skimming. In other threads about abortion I have clearly stated my view and you choose to ignore it.[/quote]I honestly haven’t seen it .
[/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< No, you also forget free will. I know Tirib doesn’t believe in freewill, but part of human dignity is free will.[/quote]I deny both that I don’t believe in freewill and that it is part of human dignity as each of those are popularly defined. When the will of God and the will of man conflict? God wins every time without exception. I don’t worship an anemic hand wringing god who pleads with the superior will of corrupt man to do things his way.
[quote]swoleupinya wrote:
Here’s where I stand (as a response to the completely tasteless and ignorant posts made on the previous page):
Abortion is not a good thing.
Sometimes it is necessary. My wife had to have our first DNC’d at about 6 weeks. It was not viable, and she was hemorrhaging to death.
Having an ineffective safety net and education for single mothers, abortions of convenience WILL occur whether they are legal or not… so the best policy is to maintain their legality at some level and keep them safe. [/quote]
This is where most people stand, but unfortunately in their eyes you are either against it 100% or you are a vicious baby killer.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< No, you also forget free will. I know Tirib doesn’t believe in freewill, but part of human dignity is free will.[/quote]I deny both that I don’t believe in freewill and that it is part of human dignity as each of those are popularly defined. When the will of God and the will of man conflict? God wins every time without exception. I don’t worship an anemic hand wringing god who pleads with the superior will of corrupt man to do things his way.
[/quote]
I have no clue what you’re talking about. So, you’re saying that when the will of God wants man to love him, and the will of a man doesn’t want to love him, God wins and the man is forced to love God? I don’t think so. We freely choose to obey or to disobey God.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I don’t think so. We freely choose to obey or to disobey God.[/quote]Then we’ll all be in hell. Philippians 2:12-13 [quote]12-So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13-for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. >>>[/quote] This is another huge topic.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Possibly off topic a bit, but the religious threads lately made me think of this:
[i]"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
~Epicurus [/i][/quote] Romans 9:18-21 [quote]18-So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19-You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20-But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21-Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? >>>[/quote]
The Christian Scientists, as well as other groups spawned by them, have the logics like this:
God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent
God is good
Evil does not exist
Their theory is the more you can focus on the good and Christ, the more evil will leave your presence by the law of your own conscienceness. Likewise, people who continue to entertain concepts of sin, sickness, disharmony, discord, hatred, death…will see more evidence of that show up in their experience. Therefore, evil is made (up) or allowed by the individual who entertains it.
[quote]Pangloss wrote:
I’m still not getting why Christians who believe the babies go to Heaven are against abortion. [/quote]
Because Christians aren’t tasked with filling seats in heaven by way of the sword. Yes, it’s just that simple.[/quote]
But they have been, when they got a command from God which they could not prove. Also, there is no proof they will not get a similiar unprovable command again.
[quote]Pangloss wrote:
I’m still not getting why Christians who believe the babies go to Heaven are against abortion. [/quote]
Because Christians aren’t tasked with filling seats in heaven by way of the sword. Yes, it’s just that simple.[/quote]
But they have been, when they got a command from God which they could not prove. Also, there is no proof they will not get a similiar unprovable command again.
[/quote]
I suppose you’re correct, that those that disobey the Catholic Church could do that.