Bible Contradictions

[BBriere]

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]BBriere wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
From the hate being received in this thread, I don’t know if I should start fearing for my life…[/quote]
Haha, don’t worry about it. As long as you stay true to the Word you’ll always have those that hate you/it. I used to get frustrated about going through long explanations of evidence for belief only for someone to say, “only an idiot would believe.” All you can do is your part. God has to do the rest. [/quote]Pretty good man. Seriously. And from Quebec? If that isn’t proof positive of the faithfulness of almighty God I don’t know what is. I don’t think I can go along with your explanation of the old covenant and the church age, but, that’s alright.
[/quote]

Thanks. Technically, it’s been a couple generations since my family was from Quebec, but I figured what the heck. I used to get on websites and debate until I was frustrated that somebody wouldn’t accept my viewpoint. Now I’m just glad to be able to share God’s Word and my faith. Nobody really ever convinced me to believe. It had to come from years of questioning, searching, and then finally listening.[/quote]Ya know what’s funny? The guy who led me to the Lord did not argue with me one bit. He told me I was living in open rebellion against a holy God and would be damned for eternity if I persisted. That simple. By what I now recognize as the resurrecting power of the risen Christ, I believed him. I was 20 years old. It was like slow motion. I asked him what I should do. He told me to confess that I was fully deserving of death by His hand and only by His righteousness could I be saved, and ask Him to do it. He said that Father God who cannot lie would honor the eternal covenant made with His Son and bring me to new life in His resurrection. When I left his apartment I wasn’t even sure what had just happened to me.

I was like “did I just have some kinda religious thing or sumthin”? I took the bible he gave me and went to bed. It was late when I got back to my trailer. The next morning I woke up and started reading the Gospel of John like he said. It was exhilarating and spooky at the same time. It was alive as I read it. I read the whole Gospel of John before I knew what had happened and I was late for work. Oh well long story.
[/quote]

And if a follower of another religion had an experience just as “enlivening”? Would you claim theirs was not true, or less true than yours, despite their equal faith and experience?[/quote]

Seems one of my posts from yesterday disappeared into infinity. Oh well. I would because if you break down what other religions come down to, it is what you can do to reach your spiritual enlightenment. Even Judaism and Islam preach the works that you must do to be closer to God.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
What does someone not excommunicating Ted Kennedy have to do with the fact that the Catholic Church is still the true Church.

And, I wanted to point out some things you didn’t realise.

1. It doesn’t take a Bishop or Priest to declare someone is excommunicated, to be excommunicated.
2. Unlike Hymenae’us and Alexander, Ted Kennedy isn’t a shepherd of the Catholic Church, he’s a United States politician.
3. Catholics don’t believe in once saved always saved.[/quote]Look man. The flagrant public sinner in 1st Corinthians 5 was not an officer of the church either as far as we are told. He was a renowned affront and a reproach to the honor of Christ and His church which Paul commanded the Corinthians to “REMOVE” forthwith. Ted Kennedy is but one high visibility example of exactly how Rome wants nothing to do with this indisputable principle which is so clearly spelled out that even the pagans reading here will see it. There are millions of Catholics who’s lives and stated beliefs are an overt insult to the Lord Jesus who show up at mass and are given communion all the time.

Let’s bring it closer to home. what if Paul, or Peter or James, OR JESUS were to look around this site and then register and begin posting? Do you suppose they would own the example being represented by you Roman Catholics here as “Christian” for themselves? Would they join in your discussions in the sex forum? Would they endorse Pat’s “open minded” brotherly embrace of a public Christ rejecting homosexual? Would they refuse to tell self proclaimed disciples of Arius of Alexandria (the JW’s) that it just wouldn’t be loving to reject their claim of Christ despite their open worship of a false God?

Or would they, judging from ALL of what they have said in the pages of scripture, cry out to God on your behalf while demanding immediate repentance or excommunication and denunciation until such repentance was forthcoming? I tell you Chris as a man and a friend who loves you that THIS is what James primarily means when he says “I will show you my faith (or not) by my works”. THIS is what John means when he says “if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments” we are lying. THIS is what Paul means when he commands believers to be “not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind”.

You can help the “Poor Clares” all you want and Pat can give his whole fortune to “Mary’s Meals”, but the Spirit of God speaking in His scriptures proclaims it a stench in His nostrils while the heart remains unchanged which WILL make itself manifest in words and deeds. The fact that Rome facilitates all this is what will forever convict her of treason against the most high God.

Ya know what’s heartbreaking? The one Roman Catholic here I might be convinced has his fingernails in the true saving faith of Jesus Christ will read this post and he will not respond. I know him by now. But, while it won’t affect his view of the RCC one bit, he WILL see my point about the name of Christ being dishonored by other Catholics here. His silence speaks volumes.

[CappedAndPlanIt]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
<<< So do you just shout “No, I’M right!” back and forth forever?[/quote]I don’t
[/quote]

But you do. You do it calmly, and use big words, but whenever someone asks your reasoning or basis for faith, and you say “well the bible says…” its the same thing. All you ever do is repeat “I’m right I’m right I’m right.” Quoting the part of the bible that says no other religions/religious experiences are true doesn’t explain why that’s a valid belief.

So you quote the bible, and he quotes his book, both of which basically say “Only this book is right”

So do you just go back and forth calmly saying “No I’m right, you’re the one who’s spiritually dead!”?

[/quote]

See, the Bible doesn’t say that “this book is right.” The Catholic Church does, the Catholic Church in her Authority does have the ability to say that the Holy Bible is correct. To use an item to prove it’s truthfulness is circular reasoning.[/quote]

What gives the catholic church authority?

On what does the catholic church base saying the bible is correct?

[CappedAndPlanIt]

Because if the bible is correct because the church says the bible is correct, and the church gets its authority from god, and proof of god comes from the bible, its just more circular reasoning.

bible-church-god-bible-church-god… etc.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Because if the bible is correct because the church says the bible is correct, and the church gets its authority from god, and proof of god comes from the bible, its just more circular reasoning.

bible-church-god-bible-church-god… etc.[/quote]

History - Jesus - Church - Bible.

[CappedAndPlanIt]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Because if the bible is correct because the church says the bible is correct, and the church gets its authority from god, and proof of god comes from the bible, its just more circular reasoning.

bible-church-god-bible-church-god… etc.[/quote]

History - Jesus - Church - Bible. [/quote]

Becomes circular when, by “history”, you actually mean “bible”.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
What does someone not excommunicating Ted Kennedy have to do with the fact that the Catholic Church is still the true Church.

And, I wanted to point out some things you didn’t realise.

1. It doesn’t take a Bishop or Priest to declare someone is excommunicated, to be excommunicated.
2. Unlike Hymenae’us and Alexander, Ted Kennedy isn’t a shepherd of the Catholic Church, he’s a United States politician.
3. Catholics don’t believe in once saved always saved.[/quote]Look man. The flagrant public sinner in 1st Corinthians 5 was not an officer of the church either as far as we are told. He was a renowned affront and a reproach to the honor of Christ and His church which Paul commanded the Corinthians to “REMOVE” forthwith. Ted Kennedy is but one high visibility example of exactly how Rome wants nothing to do with this indisputable principle which is so clearly spelled out that even the pagans reading here will see it. There are millions of Catholics who’s lives and stated beliefs are an overt insult to the Lord Jesus who show up at mass and are given communion all the time.

Let’s bring it closer to home. what if Paul, or Peter or James, OR JESUS were to look around this site and then register and begin posting? Do you suppose they would own the example being represented by you Roman Catholics here as “Christian” for themselves? Would they join in your discussions in the sex forum? Would they endorse Pat’s “open minded” brotherly embrace of a public Christ rejecting homosexual? Would they refuse to tell self proclaimed disciples of Arius of Alexandria (the JW’s) that it just wouldn’t be loving to reject their claim of Christ despite their open worship of a false God?

Or would they, judging from ALL of what they have said in the pages of scripture, cry out to God on your behalf while demanding immediate repentance or excommunication and denunciation until such repentance was forthcoming? I tell you Chris as a man and a friend who loves you that THIS is what James primarily means when he says “I will show you my faith (or not) by my works”. THIS is what John means when he says “if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments” we are lying. THIS is what Paul means when he commands believers to be “not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind”.

You can help the “Poor Clares” all you want and Pat can give his whole fortune to “Mary’s Meals”, but the Spirit of God speaking in His scriptures proclaims it a stench in His nostrils while the heart remains unchanged which WILL make itself manifest in words and deeds. The fact that Rome facilitates all this is what will forever convict her of treason against the most high God.

Ya know what’s heartbreaking? The one Roman Catholic here I might be convinced has his fingernails in the true saving faith of Jesus Christ will read this post and he will not respond. I know him by now. But, while it won’t affect his view of the RCC one bit, he WILL see my point about the name of Christ being dishonored by other Catholics here. His silence speaks volumes.
[/quote]

@Tiribulus:

Hymenae’us and Alexander are both leaders of the erring teachers in Ephesus. Hymenae’us is likely the same person as that in 2 Timothy 2:17. I know, the Bible doesn’t explicitly say it, but if that’s what was needed to prove something, then there would be a lot of doctrine you wouldn’t accept.

I’m not sure what you just said in that third sentence. But, Paul’s statement that Hym and Alex and Phile’tus excommunicated, doesn’t meant they are excommunicated perminately. Who knows they may have died inside the Church. Might be worshiping God with all three Hym, Alex, and Phile’tus.

I don’t see how Ted Kennedy is an example of how Rome doesn’t want anything to do with this excommunication. Um, I’ve pointed out several times that Ted Kennedy was probably excommunicated several times, probably even addressed privately by Bishops and his spiritual director. I’m sure Tirib, I’m sure. That’s a combination of a lack of proper teaching and culture (both which rolled in around the Vatican II). And, aren’t you the one that said all our efforts are an insult? So, wouldn’t that mean that your actions are an insult?

And, how does all this stuff that you said have anything to do with the trueness of the Catholic Church. You think Jesus would allow for his bride to be compromised just because someone isn’t a great shepherd? Yeah, it’s not a great time for the Church, but that doesn’t mean she has lost the truth. She’ll never lose the truth, Jesus promised.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Because if the bible is correct because the church says the bible is correct, and the church gets its authority from god, and proof of god comes from the bible, its just more circular reasoning.

bible-church-god-bible-church-god… etc.[/quote]

History - Jesus - Church - Bible. [/quote]

Becomes circular when, by “history”, you actually mean “bible”.[/quote]

But by “history,” I don’t mean “Bible.”

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< aren’t you the one that said all our efforts are an insult? So, wouldn’t that mean that your actions are an insult? >>>[/quote]All our efforts as a means of merit before God are a despicable insult. True works of righteousness as the authentic fruit of the Spirit in a regenerate member of the body of Christ bring Him glory and honor.

Forget about the rest. It’s not going anywhere.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< aren’t you the one that said all our efforts are an insult? So, wouldn’t that mean that your actions are an insult? >>>[/quote]All our efforts as a means of merit before God are a despicable insult. True works of righteousness as the authentic fruit of the Spirit in a regenerate member of the body of Christ bring Him glory and honor.

Forget about the rest. It’s not going anywhere.
[/quote]

I think you got something backwards, the passage isn’t saying not to do works of merit, it’s reminding us that our works won’t save us. Jesus will, however, we still need to do works.

[Pangloss]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I have never really studied that, I’m not sure about that passage. A lot of stuff happened in Judges that God didn’t sanction. So, do you have a verse on that so I can read it?
[/quote]

Posted it later in the thread.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
It is not clear about that, that is the over whelming message. However, Jesus does explain those that aren’t Christian.

Both The Gospel according to Matthew and Luke say that not everyone that calls out ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Those that do the will of the Father and which is what Jesus instructs us to do, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

As well, Paul’s letter points out to us that those who do not have the law, but do by nature what the law requires, they have the law written on their hearts.

Then again, Anne is Jewish, so she is bound by the Mosaic Law.
[/quote]

So what happens to those that aren’t on the list for heaven? Any guess?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Their spirit goes there until the final judgement, then their bodies go there as well and are eternally tormented. But, it is not God’s punishment. Those in Hell realise their hate of God to the fullest. And all the time their extreme prejudice of God torments their body and spirit.
[/quote]

And God allows this to continue…because?

If I were in heaven and one of my family were in hell, heaven would not be heaven - it couldn’t be.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
“Cursed them”… This curse, which was followed by so visible a judgment of God, was not the effect of passion, or of a desire of revenging himself; but of zeal for religion, which was insulted by these boys, in the person of the prophet; and of a divine inspiration: God punishing in this manner the inhabitants of Bethel, (the chief seat of the calf worship,) who had trained up their children in a prejudice against the true religion and its ministers.

Some commentary to that passage. I am still studying the NT, the OT will come soon enough when Dr. Scott Hahn comes out with an entire OT commentary. Although I picked up his Genesis commentary
[/quote]

I’m not following, so because Elisha had a religious zeal, that makes brutally slaughtering children okay?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I’m eating a plate of spaghetti and meat sauce, right now. I have no clue what you’re talking about.
[/quote]

So…you are eating my God then?

…hm…

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Well, even though I have no problem with H_L if you are wondering of the consensus of Christians, I wouldn’t ask a Jehovah’s Witness.
[/quote]

Let’s suppose that you are married (I don’t know) and that you love your partner. You die and she persists for a few years before dieing. In that time she, for some reason, loses faith and renounces God. She’s destined for hell.

That being the hypothetical, how would your ‘Heaven’ be?

[Pangloss]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Don’t you dare play holier than thou with me pal. Your sick demented godless heathen kind have no problem going into an office and paying strangers to violate their womb and butcher THEIR OWN unborn offspring, utterly dependent, waiting for a chance to live. I would follow the command of almighty God to purge the Earth of whatever unrighteousness He saw fit if we still lived in the economy of law, which we do not.[/quote]

Hate to point out the obvious, but this apparently DOESN’T bother you one iota, as long as God tells you to do it. It’s not the ‘butcher their own unborn offspring’ that is in your craw, it’s simply that God hasn’t commanded this butchery.

It should be on the same level as someone using God’s name in vain.

Apparently it’s not…Which seems to suggest, to me, that the morality you hold in you heart is different from the one written in the pages of the bible.

Interesting.

[Pangloss]

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

You know there is nothing new under the sun, abortion is just the modern way of passing their children through the fire.[/quote]

I’m curious, do you think babies go to hell? Or do you think they get an automatic pass to heaven?

[Pangloss]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Without question abortion is the single worst abomination that exists. There is no crime worse than that which is perpetrated on the weakest and most defensless. And there is also no question that Christians through out the world (especially the Catholic church) have held the line on the crime of abortion.[/quote]

Actually I would think that Christians would be heavily in favor of abortion.

Seems only logical, but you’d have to believe that babies go to heaven. If you didn’t believe that, then I’d have to wonder if you condemn God for allowing them to go to hell.

Now, if you do believe they are in heaven, then how could you be in favor of criminalizing abortion?

It seems like the only way to guarantee your child goes to heaven. After all, they could grow up to be atheists, damning themselves to hell. With abortion, they get an automatic pass to heaven.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< aren’t you the one that said all our efforts are an insult? So, wouldn’t that mean that your actions are an insult? >>>[/quote]All our efforts as a means of merit before God are a despicable insult. True works of righteousness as the authentic fruit of the Spirit in a regenerate member of the body of Christ bring Him glory and honor.

Forget about the rest. It’s not going anywhere.
[/quote]

I think you got something backwards, the passage isn’t saying not to do works of merit, it’s reminding us that our works won’t save us. Jesus will, however, we still need to do works.[/quote]I wasn’t talking about the passage in particular. I was talking about the concept as you were surely carrying this over from Ephrem’s post in the other thread.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Pangloss wrote:
<<< Interesting.[/quote]I’m glad.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< You have no idea what my views on abortion are, >>>[/quote]Go ahead n tell us. Or shaddup. You tell me that you are unequivocally opposed to the murderous practice of abortion and I will without hesitation recant my statement as applying to you and apologize for assuming I figured your position correctly. I have no problem doing that and maybe I should have even found out before that post. Go ahead. Make me look like a fool.[/quote]Guess he decided to shaddup.

[Makavali]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< You have no idea what my views on abortion are, >>>[/quote]Go ahead n tell us. Or shaddup. You tell me that you are unequivocally opposed to the murderous practice of abortion and I will without hesitation recant my statement as applying to you and apologize for assuming I figured your position correctly. I have no problem doing that and maybe I should have even found out before that post. Go ahead. Make me look like a fool.[/quote]Guess he decided to shaddup.
[/quote]

Go back through my posts and actually read instead of assuming or skimming. In other threads about abortion I have clearly stated my view and you choose to ignore it.

[Tiribulus]

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
<<< You have no idea what my views on abortion are, >>>[/quote]Go ahead n tell us. Or shaddup. You tell me that you are unequivocally opposed to the murderous practice of abortion and I will without hesitation recant my statement as applying to you and apologize for assuming I figured your position correctly. I have no problem doing that and maybe I should have even found out before that post. Go ahead. Make me look like a fool.[/quote]Guess he decided to shaddup.
[/quote]

Go back through my posts and actually read instead of assuming or skimming. In other threads about abortion I have clearly stated my view and you choose to ignore it.[/quote]I honestly haven’t seen it .

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< aren’t you the one that said all our efforts are an insult? So, wouldn’t that mean that your actions are an insult? >>>[/quote]All our efforts as a means of merit before God are a despicable insult. True works of righteousness as the authentic fruit of the Spirit in a regenerate member of the body of Christ bring Him glory and honor.

Forget about the rest. It’s not going anywhere.
[/quote]

I think you got something backwards, the passage isn’t saying not to do works of merit, it’s reminding us that our works won’t save us. Jesus will, however, we still need to do works.[/quote]I wasn’t talking about the passage in particular. I was talking about the concept as you were surely carrying this over from Ephrem’s post in the other thread.
[/quote]

I’m confused.