That was on some totally unrelated stuff, no need to bring those issues into this forum
I don’t actually have that problem, just sometimes I screw up coming out of the hole and get into a semi-good morning position with the weight shifting towards my toes. It’s not like it happens regularly, just it’s one of the occasional technical errors that I have and Nate, who squats well over 700lbs, was talking about that so I thought I would try to get some advice.
I don’t know about this pushing up thing, I never tried it.
The point is supposed to be to engage the lats and hold the bar in a stable position so it won’t move, but I suppose the way you are doing it would give the same effect if done properly. Some people say “bend the bar over your back” but to me that seems like it’s overdoing it and could actually make you pull the bar down beyond where you want it, I just lock my lats down and apply some pressure into the bar with my hands.
Yeah, if I tried to get my hands that close it would hurt and mess with my shoulders, I grip just outside the rings. I see what you mean about the elbows though, I used to do something more like that with my elbows slightly more forward but I find that this way it’s actually easier to keep my upper back tight, that used to be an issue sometimes but never is now.
I’m still trying to make sense of this, so it’s like you are trying to use your arms to rotate your torso upwards?
If you squat high bar then it’s likely that upper back will always be a weak link. Look at Kevin Oak, setting all time world records and major upper back rounding due to high bar. The only real direct exercise for that is upper back good mornings (you want to work spinal extensors rather than pulling muscles), but you need a SSB. Higher rep high bar squats will build that area too, so maybe just keep squatting and avoid letting your upper back round too much
Yes Yury and Malan have pretty much as narrow of grip as physically possible, I’m more in the realm of what you’re saying with index fingers near the rings. I guess the best way I can think about it is that it’s like trying to overhead press the weight when you’re in the hole, like that lift you see weightlifters do sometimes (check the video below). You can see that, even with a wide snatch grip, when pressing the weight the elbows come slightly forward and apply force up and back. I’ve used this cue before on a bow bar with my hands almost to the collars and it still seems to work, so grip width shouldn’t be an issue. Pressing back is required to counter all the forward pulling forces at the bottom of the squat. So you can imagine how with heavy weight, timing this “press” with the movement reversal at the bottom could help keep the weight back, cue the upper back to stay tight, and prevent the elbow up-pop/forward roll that happens sometimes.
Something to keep in mind is that you’re definitely not pressing into the bar with the same force as if you were literally trying to max overhead press it, it’s just enough to cue the elbows forward out of the hole.
At the end of the day, I’m a believer in the significance of individual differences, so all this stuff I’m saying may be far from optimal for your body type. Just something to keep in mind.
That sounds weird to me, it’s the complete opposite of what I’m doing. Do you have your lats engaged while you squat or not?
I guess neither is really wrong, the way I do it with pulling the bar into my back is what Chris Duffin advocates and you are a pretty good squatter yourself and you train with some high level guys. I honestly never heard of anyone trying to squat like that except for a weightlifting assistance exercise, maybe I will try it at some point but I’m still not sure how exactly to make it work.
I guess I should have given the disclaimer that this is something I’ve come across on my own and never really heard others talk about… so… yea I might just be a weird outlier lol
So I definitely have my lats and whole back engaged, but it’s not something that I really have to actively cue, it’s almost like the way I wedge myself into position creates so much tension through my arms and back that it just happens naturally. By contrast, when I do high-bar squats I have to actively think about lats and upper back bracing.
I actually just looked at a video of Dennis Cornelius squatting, check him out because you can see him doing the whole elbows forward push back thing, but with a much wider grip. Actually, looking at him I could see how it could be possible to have a “bend the bar” cue while still driving the elbows forward and pushing back. For me, though, with as narrow as I grip any time I try to bend the bar it makes it difficult to keep my elbows from popping up and pushing myself forward, even if I’m maintaining upper back integrity.
@monickinmatko in light of our discussions and your recent attempts at interpreting my advice regarding all this “push the weight back” stuff, anything you’ve learned that might help?
When I was doing something like that it felt like I was engaging my pecs instead of my lats and it was hard to keep my scapulas retracted, sometimes I would lose tension of my upper back as a result.
The good morning thing is only an occasional problem for me and it seems to me like it has to do with failing to push the bar up and back and mostly just driving with the legs instead. Take a look at my top set from Monday, I know the descent on the 2nd rep is messed up and I probably need to go an inch or so deeper, I’m using a new pair of wraps (Super Heavies, inspired by you). But even though the 3rd rep was a grinder it looks like technique didn’t really break down.
Personally I think those squats look great. Your elbows look plenty far under the bar, most guys that have issues with them popping up and falling forward start the squat with elbows much higher. On rep 3, even though it did grind a bit it does look like you’re still maintaining the “push back” type positioning with your upper body, so that’s a good sign.
I wonder if the problem with occasional good morning squatting is tied to losing position on the descent… even if it’s just a slight forward drift. I could see how even if everything else was correct, a small amount of forward drift on the descent could screw things up. Have you ever tried paused squats in wraps? A buddy of mine started throwing them in this last training cycle and his squat technique and strength skyrocketed. I could see how these could work out any inconsistency in the descent, and really anywhere else in the lift.
They are awesome, best wraps I ever used. The only issue is I was planning to do a WPC meet and I started off with a 3m pair but due to various reasons it looks like I’m going to compete in a IPL-affiliated meet so I had to switch to 2.5m but it’s not a huge difference, just have to make a few adjustments. At first I thought I wouldn’t be able to wrap myself with them, but after getting used to knee wrapping again I tried them and made it work, I can get 7 revolutions out of the 2.5m pair. They don’t even feel that bad either, SBD wraps hurt way more. This was only my 2nd time in the 2.5m wraps, they are brand new.
No but maybe I should. Reed (the other guy who was telling me to try super heavies and has a 800lbs squat) does them regularly, and so does Eduard Khanjyan who had the 242 squat record before Andrew Herbert half squatted a couple more pounds. I will try that next week.
Here’s a video where I tip forward a bit and my elbows go back on the 2nd rep, same weight but different wraps (kraits). The descent looked alright, just slow, my guess was that I just didn’t force my head up and back hard enough but maybe not keeping the elbows locked down is part of it.
Even on the second rep it definitely doesn’t look like your problem is pushing the bar forward, it just legit looks like your hips rose just a tad early. Not what I personally would call a “good morning squat” but definitely something to work on.
So it looks to me like on the second rep, your posterior chain outworks your quads and abs, creating an imbalance and pitching you forward. So it could either be that your quads and abs (obviously other stuff too but for simplicity, let’s just say quads and abs) are just not engaging enough to balance with the posterior chain, which could be fixed through proper cuing, or it could be that your posterior chain is just legitimately that much stronger than your front, so at near maximal intensities it overcompensates and creates this imbalance. If that’s the cause, I would consider specific accessory movements to strengthen your quads and abs.
You could maybe look back and see if it only happens during near maximal intensity lifts, or if it sometimes happens during easy reps too. If only at near maximal, probably is a true strength imbalance issue, but if it happens on easy reps might just be cuing.
If you look close you can see the bar drift forward a couple inches. It’s not quite a GM squat, but it’s a step in that direction and it’s what I try to avoid because it can make me fail a squat.
It only happens when the weight is heavy and/or high RPE. I actually think it has to do with glutes, like if I don’t force my head up and back I’m not really engaging the glutes, but I’m not sure.
Greg Nuckols had an article a while back saying that tipping forward was a result of quad weakness, but the Sheiko was saying that it’s due to weak glutes and/or hamstrings. If the glutes were working properly to extend the hips then you wouldn’t get into that position unless the quads actually failed, and in my case it looks more like I just got out of position into a spot where the quads can’t do anything.
I think when I do this it’s more of a technical error than anything.
Heavy paused squats in wraps might do well to expose this, if it’s technical I could see the pause squat technique looking pretty rough at first but dramatically improve each session. If it’s a strength imbalance you might still see the same movement patterns even as your body acclimates to the pausing. Might as well give them a try, how far out is the next meet?
I am pretty sure Brian Alsruhe (Aplha) also talks about pressing the bar as you push out of the hole. He also cues bending the bar on the back to get the lats engaged and elbows under the bar. I don’t think you are alone here mate.
I was trying to figure out how this would work and I think I got it now, only thing is that I’m pretty sure it would make my shoulders hurt like hell and I would have trouble benching afterwards.
Follow up: went heavier today in the alternate stance and also tried out knee wraps with it for the first time. Not amazing but interesting feeling. Experiment continues
You don’t need to max out, a heavy-ish single or a heavy triple would be sufficient. You should be able to figure out pretty fast if one style feels better.
